Where does one get help??

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Al Jones, Jan 11, 2005.

  1. Al Jones

    Al Jones Guest

    I've thrown a couple of question up here as I'm trying to learn how to use
    (x)html and css to make a reasonable looking web site, as well as do some
    'stuff'. More just for the fun of it than anything serious.

    Since I'm still at the stage of 'I don't know what questions to ask.' it
    makes it difficult to know where to go look for the information I need to
    get to the point that I can ask an intelligent question.

    My reading of this newgroup is that, with a very few exceptions, you'd
    rather be sarcastic and argumentative than genuinely helpful, so where
    does one go to get current information that is workable to a 'newbie'.

    I've worked more than a couple of the tutorials (and had the same problem
    with one that another user has and that you all are ignoring).

    I don't (yet?) have a web site, and have said so in the messages I've
    posted, so the 'URL?' response is just, to me an indication that we're
    wasting each others time. If you won't read the messages I *do* post the
    why bother with 'URL?'

    Maybe I post too much code, tell me so. Maybe I don't post enough, again
    tell me. Maybe my code is a pile of shit - agin, tell me, but since I've
    said I'm new to this I'd really appreciate a link to something that
    adresses *my* issue and helps me straighten it out.

    The one item that did get a couple of responses (and some appreciated out
    of forum help) is till non-workable and I'm (and another of this group is)
    at a loss as to why. ((it's the banner on a tableless layout the has two
    'soldier' to the left and right of some text.))

    just sign me 'frustrated'!

    Fire at Gridly, Will!

    --
    Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
     
    Al Jones, Jan 11, 2005
    #1
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  2. Al Jones wrote:
    > My reading of this newgroup is that, with a very few exceptions,

    you'd
    > rather be sarcastic and argumentative than genuinely helpful, so

    where
    > does one go to get current information that is workable to a

    'newbie'.

    Just ask the question. This is not a help desk. It is a discussion
    group. You ask a question, we throw it back an forth, and eventually
    it turns into an argument, everyone gets bored, and the thread ends.

    If at some point in time an answer should appear, then you win.

    The "shortness" you perceive is because newbies tend to all ask the
    same questions over and over. They would save everyone a lot of
    problems if they just learned to use google and searched for the
    answer.

    Then there are those newbies that argue because they don't like the
    answer (happens all the time with anything conrtoversial like Frames,
    Flash, or Javascript) "how do I use frames" Well one corect answer is
    "you don't" No matter if you like it or not, that is a correct answer.

    There is a link you see every now and then "why we don't answer your
    questions" that you can find by googling the group for those words.
    It will give a better explination of what you are refering to here.
    Oh, and welcome to the group. (f'ing newbie)

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jan 11, 2005
    #2
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  3. Al Jones

    Al Jones Guest

    On 11 Jan 2005 10:27:54 -0800, Travis Newbury <>
    wrote:

    > Al Jones wrote:
    >> My reading of this newgroup is that, with a very few exceptions,

    > you'd
    >> rather be sarcastic and argumentative than genuinely helpful, so

    > where
    >> does one go to get current information that is workable to a

    > 'newbie'.
    >
    > Just ask the question. This is not a help desk. It is a discussion
    > group. You ask a question, we throw it back an forth, and eventually
    > it turns into an argument, everyone gets bored, and the thread ends.

    I know that this isn't a help desk, and I've gone through the archives
    (would someone point me to a good archive site, I've found a couple but
    they seem to be sketchy) that show on google - but I don't do frustration
    well.
    >
    > If at some point in time an answer should appear, then you win.
    >
    > The "shortness" you perceive is because newbies tend to all ask the
    > same questions over and over. They would save everyone a lot of
    > problems if they just learned to use google and searched for the
    > answer.

    Believe it or not, I recognize that, too ... I've googled a couple of
    issues till I'm blue in the face but obviously I don't know enough to
    google the 'right' thing.
    >
    > Then there are those newbies that argue because they don't like the
    > answer (happens all the time with anything conrtoversial like Frames,
    > Flash, or Javascript) "how do I use frames" Well one corect answer is
    > "you don't" No matter if you like it or not, that is a correct answer.

    Frames - what's a frame?? ((facetious)) I've read enough to know<?> that
    the way of doing things isn't in frames. Although one project I'm playing
    with happens to be frame based because, at the moment *I* don't know
    enough to see an alternative. I can see that css-p is the way to go, and
    in another project I have it's working like a champ - much smaller code
    than the Dreamweaver (nightmare) I started with.
    >
    > There is a link you see every now and then "why we don't answer your
    > questions" that you can find by googling the group for those words.
    > It will give a better explination of what you are refering to here.
    > Oh, and welcome to the group. (f'ing newbie)

    Thanks for the reply, even if I do object to the adjective :)
     
    Al Jones, Jan 11, 2005
    #3
  4. Al Jones wrote:
    > Thanks for the reply, even if I do object to the adjective :)


    And it is good that you took it in the way it was presented.
    Now what was your question anyway?

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jan 11, 2005
    #4
  5. While the city slept, Travis Newbury () feverishly
    typed...

    [...]
    > Oh, and welcome to the group.


    Oi!

    > (f'ing newbie)


    That's better! ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss
    http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Mail address not valid. , take the DOG. out!
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!
     
    nice.guy.nige, Jan 11, 2005
    #5
  6. Al Jones wrote:

    > I've thrown a couple of question up here as I'm trying to learn how to
    > use (x)html and css to make a reasonable looking web site, as well as
    > do some 'stuff'. More just for the fun of it than anything serious.


    > Since I'm still at the stage of 'I don't know what questions to ask.'
    > it makes it difficult to know where to go look for the information I
    > need to get to the point that I can ask an intelligent question.


    > My reading of this newgroup is that, with a very few exceptions, you'd
    > rather be sarcastic and argumentative than genuinely helpful, so where
    > does one go to get current information that is workable to a 'newbie'.


    I'm pretty much a lurker, here, Al, because I have a lot to learn, too.
    From what I've seen, the responses generally take on the tone of the
    seeker. Come in with a chip on your shoulder, and you'll probably not
    be treated the way you had in mind. That's not a personal accusation; I
    don't know your posting history here; it's a general observation.

    The other category I see is, "Hi! I'm using FrontPage and..." being
    answered (usally mid-sentence <g>) by, "Well, stop that." :) Then the
    OP gets his panties in a bunch and won't see that that *is* help from
    someone (usually more than one) who knows more than he does.

    While it's not a feel-good group ("Great game! You lost 35 to 0, but you
    all played a GREAT GAME! Let's go have ice cream!"), and it shouldn't
    be, as it's a tech group -- it's not a Markup Coders Death Match group,
    either.

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jan 11, 2005
    #6
  7. Al Jones

    jake Guest

    In message <1105467408.d3615d4400dca05bd20805cdd7d584bd@teranews>, Al
    Jones <> writes
    >I've thrown a couple of question up here as I'm trying to learn how to
    >use (x)html and css to make a reasonable looking web site, as well as
    >do some 'stuff'. More just for the fun of it than anything serious.
    >
    >Since I'm still at the stage of 'I don't know what questions to ask.'
    >it makes it difficult to know where to go look for the information I
    >need to get to the point that I can ask an intelligent question.
    >
    >My reading of this newgroup is that, with a very few exceptions, you'd
    >rather be sarcastic and argumentative than genuinely helpful, so where
    >does one go to get current information that is workable to a 'newbie'.
    >
    >I've worked more than a couple of the tutorials (and had the same
    >problem with one that another user has and that you all are ignoring).
    >
    >I don't (yet?) have a web site, and have said so in the messages I've
    >posted, so the 'URL?' response is just, to me an indication that we're
    >wasting each others time. If you won't read the messages I *do* post
    >the why bother with 'URL?'
    >
    >Maybe I post too much code, tell me so. Maybe I don't post enough,
    >again tell me. Maybe my code is a pile of shit - agin, tell me, but
    >since I've said I'm new to this I'd really appreciate a link to
    >something that adresses *my* issue and helps me straighten it out.
    >
    >The one item that did get a couple of responses (and some appreciated
    >out of forum help) is till non-workable and I'm (and another of this
    >group is) at a loss as to why. ((it's the banner on a tableless
    >layout the has two 'soldier' to the left and right of some text.))
    >
    >just sign me 'frustrated'!
    >
    >Fire at Gridly, Will!
    >


    I wouldn't take it too personally.

    You'll come across all kinds in this group -- the helpful, the
    not-so-helpful, the egotists, the evangelists -- yep, all kinds.

    Just ask your questions and see what responses you get; if they're of
    any use -- well, that's a bonus ;-)

    So. What's your outstanding problems?

    regards.

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Jan 11, 2005
    #7
  8. Al Jones

    Uncle Pirate Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:

    > Al Jones wrote:
    >
    >>My reading of this newgroup is that, with a very few exceptions,

    >
    > you'd
    >
    >>rather be sarcastic and argumentative than genuinely helpful, so

    >
    > where
    >
    >>does one go to get current information that is workable to a

    >
    > 'newbie'.
    >
    > Just ask the question. This is not a help desk. It is a discussion
    > group. You ask a question, we throw it back an forth, and eventually
    > it turns into an argument, everyone gets bored, and the thread ends.
    >
    > If at some point in time an answer should appear, then you win.
    >
    > The "shortness" you perceive is because newbies tend to all ask the
    > same questions over and over. They would save everyone a lot of
    > problems if they just learned to use google and searched for the
    > answer.
    >
    > Then there are those newbies that argue because they don't like the
    > answer (happens all the time with anything conrtoversial like Frames,
    > Flash, or Javascript) "how do I use frames" Well one corect answer is
    > "you don't" No matter if you like it or not, that is a correct answer.
    >
    > There is a link you see every now and then "why we don't answer your
    > questions" that you can find by googling the group for those words.
    > It will give a better explination of what you are refering to here.
    > Oh, and welcome to the group. (f'ing newbie)
    >


    I was about to anser Al when I read your answer Travis. Good answer,
    just about what I was going to say. The only thing I was going to say
    that you didn't (although you said similar) is that the two newbies that
    Al spoke of are only two of the hundreds, if not thousands of newbies
    coming here thinking that we just sit here waiting to teach newbies how
    to write HTML. I get paid to do my teaching in the classroom, not on a
    newsgroup. With that said, there's lots to learn here if you just pay
    attention and are willing to learn.

    This newsgroup is NOT here to teach HTML, if you want to learn HTML, go
    buy a book or go take a class. I can see I'm going to have to find a
    way to add TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing AS A Free Lunch) to my
    sig without making it too much longer.

    --
    Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
    Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
    Cooordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
    '94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
    A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein
     
    Uncle Pirate, Jan 11, 2005
    #8
  9. Al Jones

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle Al Jones scribbled in the mud:

    > I don't (yet?) have a web site, and have said so in the messages I've
    > posted, so the 'URL?' response is just, to me an indication that we're
    > wasting each others time. If you won't read the messages I *do* post the
    > why bother with 'URL?'


    Why not go get a free host that you can upload your problem pages to. Most
    people find it much easier to help you if they can see the problem. Not many
    people here want to copy your code and save it as a page just to see what
    you're talking about.

    Anywat good luck on your new site.

    --
    D?
    http://wipkip.biz just to raise my PR
     
    Duende, Jan 11, 2005
    #9
  10. Duende wrote:

    > While sitting in a puddle Al Jones scribbled in the mud:


    >> I don't (yet?) have a web site, and have said so in the messages I've
    >> posted, so the 'URL?' response is just, to me an indication that we're
    >> wasting each others time. If you won't read the messages I *do* post the
    >> why bother with 'URL?'


    > Why not go get a free host that you can upload your problem pages to. Most
    > people find it much easier to help you if they can see the problem. Not many


    OP: there's a good chance that your ISP provides some free space, unless
    you're off in some place like Kamchatka, or perhaps the UK. ;)

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jan 11, 2005
    #10
  11. Al Jones

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > OP: there's a good chance that your ISP provides some free space, unless
    > you're off in some place like Kamchatka, or perhaps the UK. ;)


    Heh! Most UK ISPs will provide their customers with say 20Mb of free
    space, but unfortunately they either don't tell you that they provide it
    or don't tell you how to use it. In my experience, UK ISPs make it as
    difficult as possible to use any of their features other than simple
    online access!

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references
     
    Dylan Parry, Jan 11, 2005
    #11
  12. Al Jones

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, Blinky the Shark <> said:

    > it's not a Markup Coders Death Match group,
    > either.


    What? Did I miss that memo? Fine, back to alt.html.coders.death-match
    then.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
     
    Mark Parnell, Jan 11, 2005
    #12
  13. Al Jones

    Uncle Pirate Guest

    Dylan Parry wrote:

    > Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >
    >> OP: there's a good chance that your ISP provides some free space, unless
    >> you're off in some place like Kamchatka, or perhaps the UK. ;)

    >
    >
    > Heh! Most UK ISPs will provide their customers with say 20Mb of free
    > space, but unfortunately they either don't tell you that they provide it
    > or don't tell you how to use it. In my experience, UK ISPs make it as
    > difficult as possible to use any of their features other than simple
    > online access!
    >


    It's not unique to the UK. Especially, if the ISP is running M$. They
    have enough problems keeping thier servers secure without actually
    allowing users to use them.

    --
    Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
    Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
    Cooordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
    '94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
    A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein
     
    Uncle Pirate, Jan 11, 2005
    #13
  14. Mark Parnell wrote:

    > Previously in alt.html, Blinky the Shark <> said:


    >> it's not a Markup Coders Death Match group,
    >> either.


    > What? Did I miss that memo? Fine, back to alt.html.coders.death-match
    > then.


    It's always struck me as odd that that's a moderated group.

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jan 11, 2005
    #14
  15. Dylan Parry wrote:

    > Blinky the Shark wrote:


    >> OP: there's a good chance that your ISP provides some free space,
    >> unless you're off in some place like Kamchatka, or perhaps the UK. ;)


    > Heh! Most UK ISPs will provide their customers with say 20Mb of free
    > space, but unfortunately they either don't tell you that they provide
    > it or don't tell you how to use it. In my experience, UK ISPs make it
    > as difficult as possible to use any of their features other than
    > simple online access!


    Earthlink handles this is weirdly, IMO, in one respect. They give you,
    IIRC, 40MB of space, and if you don't know how to use it you can use
    their templates for the photos of your kiddies'n'kats gallery; but the
    space is split up as 5MB each for eight identities. IOW, with your
    account, you can have 8 mailboxes - one for every one of the
    kiddies'n'kats - and each of those "accounts" gets the little 5MB space,
    and if there's only one of you you can't combine it.

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jan 11, 2005
    #15
  16. Al Jones

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle Uncle Pirate scribbled in the mud:

    > Dylan Parry wrote:
    >
    >> Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >>
    >>> OP: there's a good chance that your ISP provides some free space,

    unless
    >>> you're off in some place like Kamchatka, or perhaps the UK. ;)

    >>
    >>
    >> Heh! Most UK ISPs will provide their customers with say 20Mb of free
    >> space, but unfortunately they either don't tell you that they provide it
    >> or don't tell you how to use it. In my experience, UK ISPs make it as
    >> difficult as possible to use any of their features other than simple
    >> online access!
    >>

    >
    > It's not unique to the UK. Especially, if the ISP is running M$. They
    > have enough problems keeping thier servers secure without actually
    > allowing users to use them.
    >

    I have SBC dsl and they give me 1gig of online storage (no ftp) but I can't
    use it for a website. For that they give me geocities.


    --
    D?
    http://wipkip.biz just to raise my PR
     
    Duende, Jan 11, 2005
    #16
  17. Al Jones

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Al Jones wrote:

    > My reading of this newgroup is that, with a very few exceptions, you'd
    > rather be sarcastic and argumentative than genuinely helpful, so where
    > does one go to get current information that is workable to a 'newbie'.


    In general, if:

    1. you follow the posting conventions of this newsgroup;
    2. you don't ask a question that was asked in the last 7 days;
    3. the answer isn't *easily* obtainable via Google; and
    4. you seem to have made an effort to figure it out for yourself

    then you are likely to get good answers.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Jan 11, 2005
    #17
  18. Al Jones

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, Blinky the Shark <> said:
    > Mark Parnell wrote:
    >
    >> What? Did I miss that memo? Fine, back to alt.html.coders.death-match
    >> then.

    >
    > It's always struck me as odd that that's a moderated group.


    It's rigged, I tell you!

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
     
    Mark Parnell, Jan 11, 2005
    #18
  19. Uncle Pirate wrote:
    >> Heh! Most UK ISPs will provide their customers with say 20Mb of free
    >> space, but unfortunately they either don't tell you that they provide
    >> it or don't tell you how to use it. In my experience, UK ISPs make it
    >> as difficult as possible to use any of their features other than
    >> simple online access!

    > It's not unique to the UK. Especially, if the ISP is running M$. They
    > have enough problems keeping thier servers secure without actually
    > allowing users to use them.


    And this is the point in the thread where it branches into a love/hate
    relationship with Microsoft.....

    If we're quiet, and hide behind these on topic threads, we will soon see
    someone sneaking a Flash menu into the conversation...

    Shh... Quite now... here it comes...

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jan 11, 2005
    #19
  20. Al Jones

    Al Jones Guest

    On 11 Jan 2005 11:06:33 -0800, Travis Newbury <>
    wrote:

    > Al Jones wrote:
    >> Thanks for the reply, even if I do object to the adjective :)

    >
    > And it is good that you took it in the way it was presented.
    > Now what was your question anyway?
    >

    Thanks Travis (and everyone else ....:) )

    I've diddled this exercise several different ways. All I'm looking at
    right now is the banner at the top of the page (pointers on how to do away
    with the frames *are* appreciated).

    Problem being, I am simply unable to get the two soldiers on the screen to
    appear over the background and at the top of the page. One of your
    cohorts took a look at it, and sent it back to me the next day with 'Well,
    I got it to work using a table in the banner.' So I don't feel so bad
    .... IE6 almost doess what I want, FF and Opera 8 put the Soldiers behind
    the background <huh??>. I realize the soldiers are too large and do have
    copies cut down to about 1/2 what they currently are - but that's minor.

    I have another project - javascript - that has my attention at the moment
    (this is *my* toy, the other is a paying customer).

    I've looked at similar setups, but don't see how it's done without some
    container for each part of the screen. Tables - no - because the content
    of the various letters (the right hand portion) varies from one and two
    liners to several screens-ful. Frames - not particularly because I think
    it canbe done more cleanly with css-p.

    Now that's too much said ... comments??
     
    Al Jones, Jan 12, 2005
    #20
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