Which browser to write for??

[Jonathan N. Little]

Ok, fine, you win. I hope you enjoy it you've earned it.

Win what? Earned what? You asked I gave you my professional opinion. You
want to code yourself into a corner so be it! When asked how to properly
do it I, as well as many others here will tell you. You not obligated to
follow the advise as we are not obligated to give you answers. But
I'll say this who made the initial request? Ah, then do you think is it
wise to be irksome to those that you are asking a favor from? Don't
whine when you are rebuffed or ignored.

 

[Jose]

I started out with

a badly botched up site and completely rewrote it using FrontPage 2003.

So now its excellently botched up.

Front Page is to be avoided at all costs. It requires you and all
future webmasters to use front page forever more, it mungs your code
(what goes on the site is very different from what FP tells you is
there), it does not permit you to update the site from any other than a
FrontPage computer with a copy of your entire site on its disk, and it
has a list of evils too long to go into.

A Front Page site cannot be converted to a regular website without the
sacrifice of three chickens and the webmaster.

If you must use a WYSIWIG editor, try Netscape Composer or any of a
number of other tools that others will suggest. They at least let you
use ordinary FTP to update the site from anywhere.

Rant aside, your first job is to create a new site with much the same
content, using non-FrontPage and non-MicrosoftWord products. You will
probably have to copy and paste, passing the text through Notepad first
to strip the formatting and then redo the codes correctly. It's a pain,
but it's the only way I've found that works.

Jose

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Oh, I see... IE has the current market share so I'll just stick my
fingers in my ears and say NANANANANANAN.....

You will sound silly to your neighbors.

If I were selling something and I knew 80 percent of the population
prefered the item in blue I'd be rather foolish to make it in green
wouldn't I.

Ok ... making a web site that only works for 80% of your customers is
like turning your server off for a couple of months every year. Can you
afford to lose that much business?

Wonderful, another net cop.....

This is Rome. Do as the Romans do. Why do you think everyone who is
replying to you is NOT top-posting? Begin boilerplate:

Usenet is not one-on-one email.

open the front cover and begin reading there?
the back cover and end up at the front or do you
chapter one or do you start somewhere near
When reading a book, do you start at

If you top-post a reply to a message from several days ago, people will
still need to scroll down to see what you are replying to, then scroll
back up to read your response, because they will likely have forgotten
the original points, or need to refresh their memory. Especially for
someone who reads hundreds of posts every day.

They would also need to figure out or guess at which points you are
replying to, if the post is far along in a thread. Here's where good
inline posting is valuable.

Due to lack of trimming, TOFU was born.
Text Oben Fullquote Unten (German)
Text Over, Fullquote Under

And, if you don't quote anything, due to the nature of Usenet
propagation, the message you are replying to may not have made it to my
news-server yet, so if there is no quote, I won't know why you are
writing what you did.

And of course, *inline posting* is most desirable. With judicious
trimming.

 

[dorayme]

Feel free to press the PageDown key before replying. Good inline posting
with trimming as necessary is the preferred method in Usenet.

This is a very diplomatic way of putting it. May I please use it
unabridged and without more acknowledgement than I now give in
advance here?

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

This is a very diplomatic way of putting it. May I please use it
unabridged and without more acknowledgement than I now give in
advance here?

Feel free to press the Control-A and Control-C keys to capture the text
to your clipboard.

Oh wait. Does a Mac have an A key? ;-)

 

[dorayme]

Oh, I see... IE has the current market share so I'll just stick my fingers
in my ears and say NANANANANANAN.....
If I were selling something and I knew 80 percent of the population prefered
the item in blue I'd be rather foolish to make it in green wouldn't I.


Wonderful, another net cop.....

Bill

Don't be a Silly Billy! No one has said to ignore the mad
one-eyed elephant. If you are to make a nice garden before the
beast comes, make it nice and then protect it later. Otherwise
you will be so consumed by the coming that you will put all sorts
of ugly protections on your arrangements and this will then
unnecessarily constrain the heights your garden can reach in the
estimate of more discerning creatures.

I am just going to go out the back and be sick. Poetic talk like
this makes me feel queasy...

O and just one other thing if I may:

Feel free to press the PageDown key before replying. Good inline
posting with trimming as necessary is the preferred method in
Usenet.

 

[dorayme]

Feel free to press the Control-A and Control-C keys to capture the text
to your clipboard.

Oh wait. Does a Mac have an A key?

Ho ho...

Talking keyboards... select, copy, paste: I have been irritated
using a PC by the great distance between the Control key and c
and even further, v. On the Mac, the command key is closer to
both much used letter keys. I bet that if it had been known from
the beginning how crucial and popular these commands were to
become, there would have been an easier combination, fingerwise.
Now it is too late.

 

[Neredbojias]

To further the education of mankind, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"

Feel free to press the Control-A and Control-C keys to capture the text
to your clipboard.

Oh wait. Does a Mac have an A key? ;-)

Dunno, but the last one I saw had an owey and 2 boo boos.

 

[Joel Shepherd]

Talking keyboards... select, copy, paste: I have been irritated
using a PC by the great distance between the Control key and c
and even further, v. On the Mac, the command key is closer to
both much used letter keys. I bet that if it had been known from
the beginning how crucial and popular these commands were to
become, there would have been an easier combination, fingerwise.

Finally, an off-topic post to reply to. It's been a while.

Maybe my Mac technique is wrong, or maybe the little keyboard on my
powermac laptop distorts things, but I find the Mac's copy/paste command
key combinations harder to do than the PC's. It's not the distance: it's
the hand distortion.

On the Mac, I have to tuck my thumb under my hand to hold the command
key and then fish around for the other key with my index finger (on the
same hand). It's uncomfortable, and the fact that the keys are close
makes it even more so.

On a PC, I hold the ctrl key down with my pinkie -- where it's hanging
out anyway -- and bap at keys with the same hand's index finger. No tuck
and stretch, just hold and tap.

But, I have fairly big hands and long fingers. Maybe smaller hands find
the Mac layout more comfortable.

[Nod to being on-topic: If this response was marked up in HTML, I'd be
using lots of P elements. So there.]

 

[Nije Nego]

No URL yet, the original site is www.faithecchurch.org . I started out with
a badly botched up site and completely rewrote it using FrontPage 2003. My
initial try is what I'm calling the interim site, works but not fancy or all
that up to date code wise. I have done some research and discovered css and
decided to rework the site to get most of the formatting out of the content
page. My main goal is to get a technically correct site that will allow
most browsers to view it in an acceptable way, including voice browsers for
the blind(it is a church site after all shouldn't it be accessible to
everyone who wants to 'view' it) and one that is not completely ugly I'm
not looking for extreme or fancy just down to earth, I'm not good enough to
do a 'Heavenly' site


Bill

/*url*/'file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/adm.ISSPECIALIST/Local%20Settings/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/FrontPageTempDir/button22.jpg');
makesnake()"

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Nije Nego wrote:

/*url*/'file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/adm.ISSPECIALIST/Local%20Settings/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/FrontPageTempDir/button22.jpg');
makesnake()"

Why a shortcut to a file on your local system???

 

[Nije Nego]

Nije Nego wrote:


Why a shortcut to a file on your local system???

Not my shortcut but from OP source code. Since he topposts, this thread is
confusing.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Not my shortcut but from OP source code. Since he topposts, this thread is
confusing.

Sorry, what can you say...he is too far to poke with a sharp stick!

 

[dorayme]

... I find the Mac's copy/paste command
key combinations harder ... I have to tuck my thumb under my hand to hold the command
key and then fish around for the other key with my index finger (on the
same hand)...

Yes, I see. I do much copy and pasting with my right hand. So
that maybe the peculiar difficulty in my case. I mouse with my
left. Copy and pasting is usually something not in the regular
flow of typing (where both hands are normally used). Seems I was
born for the Mac.

When there is a lot of repetitious c and p ing to be done a thumb
and a forefinger is surer, less likely to tire or get spasms.

 

[Bruce Grubb]

No URL yet, the original site is www.faithecchurch.org . I started out with
a badly botched up site and completely rewrote it using FrontPage 2003.

Take FrontPage off your hard drive and use an editor with the W3C standards
in mind: Amaya <http://www.w3.org/Amaya/User/BinDist.html>

If you are not willing to do that use Composer of Netscape and throw the
resulting HTML at HTML Tidy <http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/tidy/>

 

[Bruce Grubb]

Ok, your first goal should be to fix the errors, which will put you well
on your way to being a cross-browser compatible site.

<http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://www.faithecchurch.or
g%2F>

and some CSS errors and warning as well:

<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2&warning=2&uri=http%
3A%2F%2Fwww.faithecchurch.org%2F>

It is even worst than that. Here is what Icab (which has a built in
validator) found:

Funny Icab which has a HTML validator produceds this:

Altogether 63 errors found. Only 33 are listed below.
HTML error (1/5): The DOCTYPE declaration is missing.<<<<<<<<
HTML error (14/97): The document title is missing.
CSS Error (14/10): Unknown CSS property OVERFLOW-X.
CSS Error (14/30): Unknown CSS property OVERFLOW-Y.
HTML error (14/97): The tag <TITLE> is missing.
HTML warning (20/94): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.
HTML warning (23/115): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.
HTML warning (28/94): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.
HTML warning (31/98): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.
HTML warning (35/114): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.
HTML warning (62/80): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.
HTML warning (67/94): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.
HTML error (71/43): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (73/34): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (74/54): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (75/79): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (78/54): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (80/27): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (83/54): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (85/27): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (88/54): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (90/27): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (93/54): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (94/94): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (97/45): The tag <FONT> is not part of the HTML standard which
was declared for this document.
HTML error (98/260): Entity city is unknown. The most probable reason for
this error is using the & character in URLs without encoding it correctly
as &amp;.
HTML error (98/260): Entity state is unknown. The most probable reason for
this error is using the & character in URLs without encoding it correctly
as &amp;.
HTML error (98/260): Entity zipcode is unknown. The most probable reason
for this error is using the & character in URLs without encoding it
correctly as &amp;.
HTML error (98/260): Entity country is unknown. The most probable reason
for this error is using the & character in URLs without encoding it
correctly as &amp;.
HTML error (98/260): Entity title is unknown. The most probable reason for
this error is using the & character in URLs without encoding it correctly
as &amp;.
HTML error (98/260): Entity cid is unknown. The most probable reason for
this error is using the & character in URLs without encoding it correctly
as &amp;.
HTML error (98/280): The attribute </A in tag <A> is not allowed.
HTML warning (136/84): The attribute "HEIGHT" is deprecated in the tag
<TABLE> and should no longer be used. It is suggested CSS be used instead.


HTML Tidy really had problems as well:
Document content looks like HTML proprietary
(this mean it is not standard HTML)

This document has errors that must be fixed before
using HTML Tidy to generate a tidied up version.

Character codes 128 to 159 (U+0080 to U+009F) are not allowed in HTML;
even if they were, they would likely be unprintable control characters.
Tidy assumed you wanted to refer to a character with the same byte value in
the Windows-1252 encoding and replaced that reference with the Unicode
equivalent.

The table summary attribute should be used to describe
the table structure. It is very helpful for people using
non-visual browsers. The scope and headers attributes for
table cells are useful for specifying which headers apply
to each table cell, enabling non-visual browsers to provide
a meaningful context for each cell.

The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see "http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL". You may also want to try
"http://www.cast.org/bobby/" which is a free Web-based
service for checking URLs for accessibility.

You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

To learn more about HTML Tidy see http://tidy.sourceforge.net
Please send bug reports to (e-mail address removed)
HTML and CSS specifications are available from http://www.w3.org/
Lobby your company to join W3C, see http://www.w3.org/Consortium

 

[Chaddy2222]

Oh, I see... IE has the current market share so I'll just stick my fingers
in my ears and say NANANANANANAN.....
If I were selling something and I knew 80 percent of the population prefered
the item in blue I'd be rather foolish to make it in green wouldn't I.

Going by your theory...... You would be missing out on $$$ by the
day...... For an example of a better way of looking at it, look at
what a particular fast food chane have been doing recently, introducing
the Salid's Plus Menu.
Giving consumers more choice and recognizeing that their are other
area's where they can make more money.....
The web is a lot more complex however.......You can no longer just
create pages for one particular browser, they all right to the
standards..... So you need to have a page that validates, otherwise
it's going to be very hard when you find a problem, to work out a
fix.....
I should mention, it takes a lot more then just wacking in a style
sheet on a page to make it accessible. You need a good understanding of
how Screen Readers work, you can do this by eather downloading a demo,
or useing a copy of Lynx. As what a Screen Reader reads is baysicly the
same as what a text only web browser would read.

Wonderful, another net cop.....

Hmmmm, feel free to ignore advice given to you in this NG........
But, if you want assistance in these groups, I would strongly advise
against none conformence!.
<Reply Sniptd>.

 

[Toby Inkster]

Maybe my Mac technique is wrong, or maybe the little keyboard on my
powermac laptop distorts things, but I find the Mac's copy/paste command
key combinations harder to do than the PC's. It's not the distance: it's
the hand distortion.

Either way, the X11 copy/paste technique is so much easier:

As soon as you select some text, it is copied to the clipboard (or
"primary selection" in X11 parlance) -- no need to hit *anything* on
your keyboard. Then just middle-click to paste.

(Though most programs do support Ctrl-C/X/V too.)

 

[Alan J. Flavell]

Either way, the X11 copy/paste technique is so much easier:

As soon as you select some text, it is copied to the clipboard

That's a matter of opinion! The slightest blunder with the mouse then
results in the previous clipboard contents (the ones I wanted to use!)
getting destroyed.

 

[Jose]

Either way, the X11 copy/paste technique is so much easier:

As soon as you select some text, it is copied to the clipboard (or
"primary selection" in X11 parlance)

.... erasing what you had there, no? (or is it a clipboard notebook?).
Sometimes you want to keep something (old) while you select something
(new) and do something (else) with it.

Jose