Which IDE to choose (more specific than earlier, very similar post)?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Gelmir Tinehtelë, Jun 9, 2004.

  1. Hello guys,

    I'm C++/Windows programmer and I'd like to smoothly switch to Java. I read
    replies to earlier, very similar post, but I didn't even hear about such
    IDEs :-(
    My question is following: using what IDE can I easily create applets with
    controls like edit, list, combo boxes, buttons, tree controls and - this is
    very important - have support to draw 3D graphics? Some time ago I was using
    Borland JBuilder, but I guess it was not intended for building commercial
    releases. I was browsing Sun Microsystems' site and found free "Sun Java
    Studio Creator, Early Access". Can I create in it commercial applets using
    features that I described above? If not, please advise me something free or
    really good enough (read: easy to develop applets) to spend money IDE;
    preferably free of course :)
    Generally I focused on "Sun Java Studio Creator, Early Access", but I'm
    waiting for your replies.
    Please reply, your opinion is crucial for me.

    Regards

    P.S. I'm not going to create server-side applets. I will be doing applets
    run in web browser.
    Gelmir Tinehtelë, Jun 9, 2004
    #1
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  2. Re: Which IDE to choose (more specific than earlier, very similarpost)?

    Gelmir Tinehtelë wrote:
    > My question is following: using what IDE can I easily create applets


    Consider writing Java applications instead. If you have a need for
    deployment via the internet, deploy the application with Java WebStart
    (comes with Java).

    > with
    > controls like edit, list, combo boxes, buttons, tree controls and


    "control" is a Windows term. Please consider adapting the usual
    terminology. The general, not-java specific term is widgets. In Java
    terminology, these are subclasses of Component.

    When you change to Java, plan some time to learn about layout managers.
    Positioning and sizing widgets in Java is quite different from doing so
    in Windows. Some people will tell you to ignore layout managers. This is
    bad advice. You will end up with non cross-platform compatible programs.

    > - this is
    > very important - have support to draw 3D graphics?


    Java comes with a rich 2D (not 3D) API. You have to check if this is a
    sufficient base to build your 3D drawings. Java also has a 3D extension.
    However, I have never seen reports that anyone used that in an applet.
    An application instead of an applet sounds more reasonable to me. There
    is also a Java OpenGL binding out there which might be of use for you.

    Since you asked about IDEs, Java's 3D capabilities are not a matter of
    an IDE. They are a matter of which additional API you want to use.


    > Some time ago I was using
    > Borland JBuilder, but I guess it was not intended for building commercial
    > releases.


    The quality of your application/applet does not depend on your IDE. it
    depends on your skills. The IDE is just a tool. There is no technical
    limitation in the many JBuilder versions which would prevent you from
    building a commercial program. There might be license restrictions in
    the free version, which should not be in the commercial versions. Many,
    many people have successfully released commercial programs build with
    JBuilder.

    > I was browsing Sun Microsystems' site and found free "Sun Java
    > Studio Creator, Early Access". Can I create in it commercial applets using
    > features that I described above? If not, please advise me something free or
    > really good enough (read: easy to develop applets) to spend money IDE;
    > preferably free of course :)


    The IDE question has been asked so often, why don't you just read an
    archive of this group and try some? Since we don't know your individual
    preferences and requirements, anyone giving you a name is just doing
    some random guessing, anyway.

    In principle, the Java 2 SDK from Sun, and a text editor is all you need
    to do some development. It is inconvenient but not impossible.

    > P.S. I'm not going to create server-side applets. I will be doing applets
    > run in web browser.


    There is no such thing as "server-site applets" in Java. And again,
    consider an application instead of an applet.

    /Thomas
    Thomas Weidenfeller, Jun 9, 2004
    #2
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  3. Gelmir Tinehtelë

    Aidan Guest

    Re: Which IDE to choose (more specific than earlier, very similarpost)?

    Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:

    > Java comes with a rich 2D (not 3D) API. You have to check if this is a
    > sufficient base to build your 3D drawings. Java also has a 3D extension.
    > However, I have never seen reports that anyone used that in an applet.
    > An application instead of an applet sounds more reasonable to me.


    Why not in an applet?
    Aidan, Jun 9, 2004
    #3
  4. Gelmir Tinehtelë

    Bryce Guest

    On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:41:20 +0200, "Gelmir Tinehtelë" <>
    wrote:

    >I'm C++/Windows programmer and I'd like to smoothly switch to Java. I read
    >replies to earlier, very similar post, but I didn't even hear about such
    >IDEs :-(


    Why don't you try them out and make a decision on what YOU prefer.

    >My question is following: using what IDE can I easily create applets with
    >controls like edit, list, combo boxes, buttons, tree controls and - this is
    >very important - have support to draw 3D graphics?


    Most have t his support, either natively or via plugins.

    > Some time ago I was using
    >Borland JBuilder, but I guess it was not intended for building commercial
    >releases.


    Why do you say that?

    >I was browsing Sun Microsystems' site and found free "Sun Java
    >Studio Creator, Early Access". Can I create in it commercial applets using
    >features that I described above? If not, please advise me something free or
    >really good enough (read: easy to develop applets) to spend money IDE;
    >preferably free of course :)


    Netbeans, Eclipse (with plugins) just to name 2

    >Generally I focused on "Sun Java Studio Creator, Early Access", but I'm
    >waiting for your replies.
    >Please reply, your opinion is crucial for me.



    --
    now with more cowbell
    Bryce, Jun 9, 2004
    #4
  5. "Thomas Weidenfeller" <> wrote in message
    news:ca6sah$prm$...
    >
    > "control" is a Windows term. Please consider adapting the usual
    > terminology. The general, not-java specific term is widgets. In Java
    > terminology, these are subclasses of Component.


    Yes, that's right - I will try to remember keeping proper terminology on
    Java newsgroups although I think it is not relevant if everyone knows what
    is what :)
    By saying "switch to Java" I didn't mean to say that I'm doing it for good -
    still I'm a (hard)core Windows C++ programmer, temporarily switching to
    Java.


    > When you change to Java, plan some time to learn about layout managers.
    > Positioning and sizing widgets in Java is quite different from doing so
    > in Windows. Some people will tell you to ignore layout managers. This is
    > bad advice. You will end up with non cross-platform compatible programs.


    Thank you for advise. I guess my first step will be to check what the layout
    manager is.


    > Since you asked about IDEs, Java's 3D capabilities are not a matter of
    > an IDE. They are a matter of which additional API you want to use.


    You're right again, if I was unclear, my apologizes. Anyway, I've decided to
    use Sun's Java SDK. Samples are really impressive.


    > The quality of your application/applet does not depend on your IDE. it
    > depends on your skills. The IDE is just a tool. There is no technical
    > limitation in the many JBuilder versions which would prevent you from
    > building a commercial program. There might be license restrictions in
    > the free version, which should not be in the commercial versions. Many,
    > many people have successfully released commercial programs build with
    > JBuilder.
    >
    >
    > The IDE question has been asked so often, why don't you just read an
    > archive of this group and try some? Since we don't know your individual
    > preferences and requirements, anyone giving you a name is just doing
    > some random guessing, anyway.
    >
    > In principle, the Java 2 SDK from Sun, and a text editor is all you need
    > to do some development. It is inconvenient but not impossible.


    Technically this is true, and also applies to Windows applications - you can
    write whole thing in Notepad - but in my opinion you wouldn't achieve the
    same quality if you were writing application using convenient, integrated
    IDE, with help system. I see now I definitely was not enough clear when
    asking my question. What I wanted to know was how painlessly jump into Java
    development - following your thought - without using Java 2 SDK and Notepad.
    After short research I decided to choose JBuilder as a very consistent and
    convenient tool.


    > > P.S. I'm not going to create server-side applets. I will be doing

    applets
    > > run in web browser.

    >
    > There is no such thing as "server-site applets" in Java. And again,
    > consider an application instead of an applet.


    What about "servlets"? Aren't they server-side (my mistake: was "site",
    should be "side") applets? I wanted to say by that I'm going to create
    downloadable applets running within web browser.
    And what is wrong with word "applet"? I'm not vicious, just curious, so if
    you could explain it to me please, it would great.

    My regards and thanks for reply.
    Gelmir Tinehtelë, Jun 9, 2004
    #5
  6. Re: Which IDE to choose (more specific than earlier, very similarpost)?

    Aidan wrote:
    > Why not in an applet?


    - Loading time, each time you start the applet. Especially if you have
    to load an additional large 3D library over the net.

    - I would bet a good 3D API has some native library, too. Try to get
    that in place from an applet.

    Also the usual problems with applets:

    - Hassle with different browser versions and the plugin needs to be
    installed

    - Security restrictions unless you sign the applet

    - The need to have to run a browser in order to start the applet

    It just doesn't look to me like applets are an adequate technology for a
    non-trivial 3D visualization tool.

    /Thomas
    Thomas Weidenfeller, Jun 9, 2004
    #6
  7. "Bryce" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Why don't you try them out and make a decision on what YOU prefer.


    It is not possible because of the lack of time. Unfortunately, I'm not doing
    it just for fun.


    > >My question is following: using what IDE can I easily create applets with
    > >controls like edit, list, combo boxes, buttons, tree controls and - this

    is
    > >very important - have support to draw 3D graphics?

    >
    > Most have t his support, either natively or via plugins.


    Thanks - with this knowledge I can start searching.


    > > Some time ago I was using
    > >Borland JBuilder, but I guess it was not intended for building commercial
    > >releases.

    >
    > Why do you say that?


    Right, after checking Borland's site JBuilder seems to be (or is) definitely
    a powerful tool.


    Thanks for reply - I was interested in Eclipse and JBuilder, but have chosen
    JBuilder.
    Gelmir Tinehtelë, Jun 9, 2004
    #7
  8. Re: Which IDE to choose (more specific than earlier, very similar post)?

    "Thomas Weidenfeller" <> wrote in message
    news:ca75tr$1im$...
    [cut]
    >
    > - The need to have to run a browser in order to start the applet
    >
    > It just doesn't look to me like applets are an adequate technology for a
    > non-trivial 3D visualization tool.
    >


    It depends what you consider trivial. Sometimes 3D is required just for
    rotating square with bars representing current values of something. I guess
    porting Quake III Arena wouldn't be trivial, but in my case it is all just
    about 3D charts.
    Gelmir Tinehtelë, Jun 9, 2004
    #8
  9. On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:07:58 +0200, Gelmir Tinehtelë wrote:
    > "Thomas Weidenfeller" <> wrote in message

    ....
    >>> P.S. I'm not going to create server-side applets. I will be doing
    >>> applets run in web browser.

    >>
    >> There is no such thing as "server-site applets" in Java. And again,
    >> consider an application instead of an applet.

    >
    > What about "servlets"? Aren't they server-side (my mistake: was "site",
    > should be "side") applets? I wanted to say by that I'm going to create
    > downloadable applets running within web browser.


    Downloadable applets do not necessarily
    require any 'server-side' help (beyond
    the server specifying the .jnlp as the
    correct mime-type)

    Server-side help is only required for extra
    functionality like obtaining filtered results
    from a D/B based upon applet requests..

    > And what is wrong with word "applet"? I'm not vicious, just curious, so if
    > you could explain it to me please, it would great.


    What Thomas wrote was of interest to me as well,
    as I have always looked to '3D Applet' as the
    ultimate test of whether it is practical to deploy
    3D Java to the masses, but always had my doubts..

    I have had considerable head-aches as a *developer*
    to get any 3D stuff working at all, it does not
    seem like something practicle for deploying via
    the net generally, let alone in an applet.
    [ ..looking forward to being proved wrong, though.. ]

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
    http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
    http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology
    Andrew Thompson, Jun 9, 2004
    #9
  10. Gelmir Tinehtelë

    Bryce Guest

    On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:19:31 +0200, "Gelmir Tinehtelë" <>
    wrote:

    >"Bryce" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>
    >> Why don't you try them out and make a decision on what YOU prefer.

    >
    >It is not possible because of the lack of time. Unfortunately, I'm not doing
    >it just for fun.


    True, but you will never really know an IDE unless you try it out. I
    think you could ask opinions about 5 different IDE's and find equal
    number of people that like or dislike each one.

    >> > Some time ago I was using
    >> >Borland JBuilder, but I guess it was not intended for building commercial
    >> >releases.

    >>
    >> Why do you say that?

    >
    >Right, after checking Borland's site JBuilder seems to be (or is) definitely
    >a powerful tool.


    It is. I don't personally use it, prefering cheap/free IDEs.

    >Thanks for reply - I was interested in Eclipse and JBuilder, but have chosen
    >JBuilder.



    --
    now with more cowbell
    Bryce, Jun 9, 2004
    #10
  11. Gelmir Tinehtelë

    Aidan Guest

    Re: Which IDE to choose (more specific than earlier, very similarpost)?

    Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
    > Aidan wrote:
    >
    >> Why not in an applet?

    >
    >
    > - Loading time, each time you start the applet. Especially if you have
    > to load an additional large 3D library over the net.


    Applets can cache their program data just like a Webstart app can too.

    > - I would bet a good 3D API has some native library, too. Try to get
    > that in place from an applet.


    I'd bet not. http://www4.alzado.net/edparticipar.html
    Not exactly Quake III, but a 3D applet none the less.

    > Also the usual problems with applets:
    >
    > - Hassle with different browser versions and the plugin needs to be
    > installed


    The plugin works pretty well now on all the main browsers.

    > - Security restrictions unless you sign the applet


    Don't Webstart apps run in some sort of sandbox also? I may be wrong,
    since the last Webstart app I made was a few years ago.

    > - The need to have to run a browser in order to start the applet


    > It just doesn't look to me like applets are an adequate technology for a
    > non-trivial 3D visualization tool.



    Fair enough, but it depends on the app. I do prefer Webstart myself for
    most things.

    Aidan
    Aidan, Jun 9, 2004
    #11
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