Who gets interviewed to produce use cases?

D

David Lamb

From: "David Lamb" <david.lamb@1:261/38.remove-qhs-this>

From: "David Lamb" <david.lamb@1:261/38.remove-p82-this>

From: David Lamb <[email protected]>

Does anyone have data, or at least an informed opinion, on how often genuine
users of a proposed piece of software get consulted on developing use cases (or
some close equivalent)? I ask here because of the recent UML discussion and
because I've seen people, especially Lew, mention use cases reasonably
frequently.

In an informal discussion with a colleague I was arguing based on things I'd
read that "modern best practices" recommended interviewing the people who will
actually use a software system in their jobs, rather than only upper management
or professional consultants. He said the industry standard was to resell an old
system to new customers and charge for every small attempt to get it to work
the way the customers wanted.

Is he being excessively cynical, or am I being excessively naive? Does anyone
know which of us is closer to right? Is the answer different for the Java and
object-oriented-development community than it is for other developers?

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R

Robert Klemme

To: David Lamb
From: "Robert Klemme" <robert.klemme@1:261/38.remove-k2r-this>

To: David Lamb
From: "Robert Klemme" <robert.klemme@1:261/38.remove-qhs-this>

To: David Lamb
From: Robert Klemme <[email protected]>

Does anyone have data, or at least an informed opinion, on how often
genuine users of a proposed piece of software get consulted on
developing use cases (or some close equivalent)? I ask here because of
the recent UML discussion and because I've seen people, especially Lew,
mention use cases reasonably frequently.

In an informal discussion with a colleague I was arguing based on things
I'd read that "modern best practices" recommended interviewing the
people who will actually use a software system in their jobs, rather
than only upper management or professional consultants. He said the
industry standard was to resell an old system to new customers and
charge for every small attempt to get it to work the way the customers
wanted.

Is he being excessively cynical, or am I being excessively naive? Does
anyone know which of us is closer to right? Is the answer different for
the Java and object-oriented-development community than it is for other
developers?

I actually believe you could both be right: it is in fact modern practice to do
so - but the practice might not be applied widely. Often the people who decide
about a software purchase and those who use it are not identical.

It may be worse with web applications: there users are often not in the same
organization as the one who actually puts the money on the table. Users might
be asked when the product is operational already - or never.

In telco industries there are exist a lot of specifications. There is is
common practice to compare the sub set of the standard a customer needs with
the published compatibility documents of a vendor. Often other aspects are
given less weight, for example usability. But customers actually describe use
cases they want to have implemented. Although these are often more formal than
the term suggests (i.e. contain specific protocol definitions).

Kind regards

robert

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L

Lew

To: David Lamb
From: "Lew" <lew@1:261/38.remove-k2r-this>

To: David Lamb
From: "Lew" <lew@1:261/38.remove-qhs-this>

To: David Lamb
From: Lew <[email protected]>

Does anyone have data, or at least an informed opinion, on how often
genuine users of a proposed piece of software get consulted on
developing use cases (or some close equivalent)? I ask here because of
the recent UML discussion and because I've seen people, especially Lew,
mention use cases reasonably frequently.

I mention use cases in a rather abstract sense, that is, to signify the
underlying
phenomenon of a collection of circumstances and needs. You seem to use the term
in a more restricted sense of the documentation of such phenomena.

These are distinct things. The report is not the situation on the ground.
In an informal discussion with a colleague I was arguing based on things
I'd read that "modern best practices" recommended interviewing the
people who will actually use a software system in their jobs, rather
than only upper management or professional consultants. He said the
industry standard was to resell an old system to new customers and
charge for every small attempt to get it to work the way the customers
wanted.

Is he being excessively cynical, or am I being excessively naive? Does

You are not being naive, and he is being cynical. I cannot speak to whether his
cynicism is excessive.

I disagree that projects generally are designed to rip off customers as he
describes, but in some sectors such practices are more prevalent than in
others.

Every industry has its snakes in the grass.
anyone know which of us is closer to right? Is the answer different for
the Java and object-oriented-development community than it is for other
developers?

Those questions require data.

If there are data, they are either secret, in which case no one here can tell
you of them, or publicized, in which case GIYF.

Undoubtedly people here have opinions and anecdotes, but you are asking about
reality. To answer your questions requires data.

I can tell you from experience that projects exist that might give the
appearance of justifying your colleague's cynicism but that was not deliberate.
Many software projects are not well managed, but I attribute that to
incompetence rather than malice. Industry estimates of the failure rate for
multi-million-dollar projects (up into the billions!) range from 33% to 67%,
that I've read.

So the data indicate that many projects fail to satisfy the requirements, or
even see deployment, with good evidence that it's the majority of projects.

The majority of *multi-hundred-million dollar* projects.

Is that on purpose? The data I've seen don't say.

--
Lew

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G

Gene Wirchenko

To: Lew
From: "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-k2r-this>

To: Lew
From: "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-qhs-this>

To: Lew
From: Gene Wirchenko <[email protected]>

I mention use cases in a rather abstract sense, that is, to signify the underlying
phenomenon of a collection of circumstances and needs. You seem to use the
term in a more restricted sense of the documentation of such phenomena.

I do both, but favour the underlying. My case is a bit special.
Having worked for my customer for about twenty years off and on, I have a
pretty good idea what needs to be handled.
These are distinct things. The report is not the situation on the ground.


You are not being naive, and he is being cynical. I cannot speak to whether
his cynicism is excessive.

I agree.
I disagree that projects generally are designed to rip off customers as he
describes, but in some sectors such practices are more prevalent than in
others.

Every industry has its snakes in the grass.

I agree here, too.
Those questions require data.

If there are data, they are either secret, in which case no one here
can tell you of them, or publicized, in which case GIYF.

Undoubtedly people here have opinions and anecdotes, but you are asking
about reality. To answer your questions requires data.

I can tell you from experience that projects exist that might give the
appearance of justifying your colleague's cynicism but that was not
deliberate. Many software projects are not well managed, but I attribute
that to incompetence rather than malice. Industry estimates of the failure
rate for multi-million-dollar projects (up into the billions!) range from
33% to 67%, that I've read.

And it could just be that the customer really does not know what
he wants. You can try describing it, but too often, he nods and then complains
later that it was not what he expected. Or the old "That's just what I said,
but it's not what I want!"
So the data indicate that many projects fail to satisfy the requirements,
or even see deployment, with good evidence that it's the majority of projects.

Sometimes, what requirements?
The majority of *multi-hundred-million dollar* projects.

Is that on purpose? The data I've seen don't say.

I have read posts by Lynn Wheeler (a long-time IBMer) of the
effect of companies having found that they can make more on marge projects by
not getting it right the first time.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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L

Lew

To: Gene Wirchenko
From: "Lew" <lew@1:261/38.remove-k2r-this>

To: Gene Wirchenko
From: "Lew" <lew@1:261/38.remove-qhs-this>

To: Gene Wirchenko
From: Lew <[email protected]>

Gene said:
projects.

Sometimes, what requirements?

The requirements those projects were instituted to fulfill, of course.
I have read posts by Lynn Wheeler (a long-time IBMer) of the
effect of companies having found that they can make more on marge
projects by not getting it right the first time.

Those are anecdotes. They might even be credible and accurately describe the
motivation for some projects of his experience. They aren't enough data to
generalize about the degree of this practice.

--
Lew

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