Why do some people hate java?

L

Lew

Joshua said:
(like C pointers: not a good thing for CS neophytes).

Actually, they are the perfect thing for CS neophytes. The problem is that
neophytes are coddled with Java and never have to confront wild pointers.
(They frequently don't have to learn analytic thinking, either, but that's a
separate issue.) Better to start them on something hard and really understand
what is up with these computer things than wait until they hit the work world
as programmers and don't understand /why/ Struts has an Action class framework
or why dereferencing a null variable is a Bad Thing.

Programming is really not a simple exercise and we should really work those
neophytes' asses off to learn it instead of turning them loose half baked.

-- Lew
 
T

tjmadden1128

The risk is that the space of problems that require wicked awesome developers
will shrink, relegating most to day-laborer tasks. The likelihood is that
there will always be significant demand for truly skilled programmers to keep
pushing the envelope.


-- Lew
Which means that companies will try to lower the bottom line and hire
more
off-shore programmers instead of higher priced domestic labor. Or save
more by
with off-shore consulting.
 
C

Chris Smith

Lew said:
That risk, expressed as an absolute like that, is zero. The risk can be seen
from two sides: the companies' and the programmers'. Generally the risk is
that the benefit to companies / opportunity for programmers in good
programming will diminish, but it really cannot cease to exist altogether.

Sure, okay.
The risk is that the space of problems that require wicked awesome developers
will shrink, relegating most to day-laborer tasks. The likelihood is that
there will always be significant demand for truly skilled programmers to keep
pushing the envelope.

Absolutely. I am not concerned with that risk. When (and if!) software
becomes more trivial to write, the problems that software solves will
change until there is still need for skilled programmers. The process
doesn't run like clockwork, so there are times when it seems that
programmers are becoming more commoditized; but history teaches that
this will change when new kinds of problems arise. My concern is quite
on the opposite side of the spectrum; that companies are adopting
approaches that prevent them from taking advantage of the level of skill
that is offered to them by their development task. The result is that
problems which should be solved quickly and easily often take a long
time and a large amount of work because the project is planned as if it
will.

To be clear; I do not see frequent use of Java as a symptom of this
problem. Even quite skilled programmers often reasonably choose
languages that don't require a huge amount of skill to read their code.
I simply used your post as a springboard to discuss a topic that
concerns me.
 
M

Mark Space

Arne said:
Any programmer who have worked with C/C++ knows that
there is almost always some team member than manage
to create a memory leak.


Yeah! I hate that guy!


Oh wait.... ;)
 
M

Mark Space

Jason said:
Just a quick list of the small feature set Eclipse has:
< snipped the list >
I haven't tried Netbeans, so I can't compare. But, Eclipse is
definitely good, there is no doubt about that.

Good list. Everything on that list, NetBeans does also. I agree the
incremental compiler is a god-send over standard editors, and the
ability to find variables and method names on the fly is great.

I'm sure there's some differences in implementation and quality, but at
first blush they seem to compare very similarly.


P.S. NetBeans will also write code for you. If you extend an abstract
class, or implement an interface, NB will ask you if you want it to
insert the prototypes for the abstract methods into your class for you.
Saves time, typing and memory work!
 
J

Jason Cavett

Good list. Everything on that list, NetBeans does also. I agree the
incremental compiler is a god-send over standard editors, and the
ability to find variables and method names on the fly is great.

I'm sure there's some differences in implementation and quality, but at
first blush they seem to compare very similarly.

P.S. NetBeans will also write code for you. If you extend an abstract
class, or implement an interface, NB will ask you if you want it to
insert the prototypes for the abstract methods into your class for you.
Saves time, typing and memory work!

Yeah. ;-) Eclipse does that too.

I haven't used NetBeans in some time. Sounds like they're on par with
each other.


BTW - Wonder who *really* hates Eclipse and gave everybody one star
rating for talking about it. :p
 
L

Lew

Chris said:
Absolutely. I am not concerned with that risk. When (and if!) software
becomes more trivial to write, the problems that software solves will
change until there is still need for skilled programmers. The process
doesn't run like clockwork, so there are times when it seems that
programmers are becoming more commoditized; but history teaches that
this will change when new kinds of problems arise. My concern is quite
on the opposite side of the spectrum; that companies are adopting
approaches that prevent them from taking advantage of the level of skill
that is offered to them by their development task. The result is that
problems which should be solved quickly and easily often take a long
time and a large amount of work because the project is planned as if it
will.

To be clear; I do not see frequent use of Java as a symptom of this
problem. Even quite skilled programmers often reasonably choose
languages that don't require a huge amount of skill to read their code.
I simply used your post as a springboard to discuss a topic that
concerns me.

Now I get your point. Very right.

I have seen this risk in practice. It is part of the larger human failing of
trying to go on the cheap and getting cheap as a result.

By my own observation I have seen 50:1 speedups in time-to-result when a
programming team is turned loose compared to the factory model of managing a
software project. I have seen even higher ratios, but my personal sample space
is a little too small to confidently quote them. There was a concomitant
increase in maintainability and robustness. too.

But employers don't usually opt for this approach. Teams are organized around
the least competent skill level, and suggestions of algorithmic improvement RE
often rejected on the basis that it might be "too advanced" for some team
members. On the rare occasions when I have countered with the suggestion that
it would be better to upgrade the team than downgrade the product, I have
gotten in trouble.

The risk you identify is real and present.

-- Lew
 
A

Ashoka!

It takes "ages" to startup especialy on low ram machines. But, Java VM
takes no time to start from an ARM (they have native java bytecode
interpreter in their chips, and I like it :). I've read somewhere that
Sun have sacrificed size for the sake of speed :)


You have to pay for machine independence!!! if you want faster start
times some softwares will compile Java to exe format look for "Native
code compilers" on google to get a good idea.

Personnally I love the power of C/C++ but it does not have usable
API's. As for lovers of .net wait untill you have some hardcore
programming to do (where security, response time and availability are
critical). .Net makes it very easy to make software but the quality is
limited by the quality of Microsoft programs and we all know how good
they are. Java is a good compromise. As Winston Churchil once said "It
has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except
all the others that have been tried." same is the case with java.
 
O

Oliver Wong

Mark Space said:
P.S. NetBeans will also write code for you. If you extend an abstract
class, or implement an interface, NB will ask you if you want it to
insert the prototypes for the abstract methods into your class for you.
Saves time, typing and memory work!

Eclipse does this too, as does Visual Studio .NET (for C#). And so I'd
assume all the "big" IDEs will do this for you.

- Oliver
 

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