Why is it "mov eax, 25h" in the first line of NtCreateFile?

[Kenny McCormack]

Yes. Which is why Ben Pfaff's answer to the question
was exactly right: He directed the O.P. toward a better
source of information.

Bullshit. See my previous post for why this doesn't work.

 

[Kenny McCormack]

Eric Sosman a écrit :

I am not a "vandal" because I correctly answered a question here.

By his lights, you are. Go figure...

Who you think you are?

An out of work, unemployable, ex-Sun employee, whose only life is
posting crap to Usenet.

 

[Kenny McCormack]

usual:

....

If someone turns up to your door bleeding from a head wound, do you tell
them "This isn't a hospital" and slam the door?

Bottom line is: Yes. Most CLCs regs would do exactly that.

Hey, that's one almost-entirely-inappropriate-analogy each.
Care for a replay?

If someone asks you directions in the street, do you say "Do I look like
a SatNav" and go about your day?

Bottom line is: Yes. Most CLCs regs would do exactly that.

Besides, if you think mildly off topic questions are whats befouls this
newsgroup, you and I have very very different ideas of the problems
here.

You make a lot of very good points. Welcome to CLC!

I will just say this: You have to understand that topicality is not the
end issue. It is merely a means to an end - a club with which to beat
people into submission. The real issue is talking about things that
make them (the regs) uncomfortable - like Windows, like C++, and, most
especially, C#.

 

[Lew Pitcher]

If someone turns up to your door bleeding from a head wound, do you tell
them "This isn't a hospital" and slam the door?

If someone turns up at a Hospital Emergency Room and complains that his car
won't start and the Emergency Room should supply a mechanic to fix it,
would the triage nurse say "Certainly, sir. I'll send out our Head Surgeon
to have a look"? Or would she say "Sorry, sir, but this is a Hospital, not
a Garage. We can't help you. But, if you look in the phone book over there,
you probably can find a garage to assist you."?

[other inappropriate analogies snipped]

When asking questions in a specialist forum, it behoves you to ask questions
relevant to the forum, and take advice on topicality to heart.

 

[Antoninus Twink]

That's an interesting theory. I would grant that at least two of them
appear to be the same person.

Go on, amuse me. Which two?

The sad truth is that while the rest of us in the common sense brigade
are trying hard to fill Han's boots, we're really not worthy to tie his
laces.

 

[Keith Thompson]

If someone turns up to your door bleeding from a head wound, do you tell
them "This isn't a hospital" and slam the door?

I wouldn't slam the door, but I'd try to get him to an actual
hospital. I'd try to apply some kind of first aid in the meantime.
But someone asking about "mov eax, 25h" is not in an emergency
situation and doesn't require immediate first aid; what's wrong with
directing him to a hospital^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H more appropriate forum?

[...]

Clue: "That's not standard C, so its off topic" is (partly) the problem,
not the solution. Being slightly platform specific is a completely
idiotic reason to preclude any discussion.

[...]

The original question wasn't merely "not standard C", nor was it
*slightly* platform specific. It wasn't C at all.

 

[Antoninus Twink]

You didn't seize upon Ben's correct and helpful answer,

I have a lot of respect for Ben Paff, his expertise in the world of
balanced trees and his willingness to share it freely.

But in this case, you'd have to admit that his answer was probably wrong
and certainly useless.

What makes you think Eric was calling you a vandal?

Just like you, Eric is an arrogant, misanthropic shit who thinks
everyone who disagrees with their views on "topicality" is a troll and a
vandal. Jacob's vast expertise and helpfulness counts for nothing in
this black and white world view.

To get back to programming for just a minute (if that's quite all right
with you, Keith), mentioning balanced trees reminds me of something I
meant to ask. Maybe I'll start a new thread for it in case it gets lost
in the noise of you and Eric spitting poison.

 

[Seebs]

Besides, if you think mildly off topic questions are whats befouls this
newsgroup, you and I have very very different ideas of the problems
here.

They contribute to the environment in which the other problems thrive.

Clue: "That's not standard C, so its off topic" is (partly) the problem,
not the solution. Being slightly platform specific is a completely
idiotic reason to preclude any discussion.

That's a fascinating theory. I recommend you build a time machine and go
back to the formation of Usenet and argue that point.

Especially if that platform
is as ubiquitous as the i386. It is ironic, isn't it, that one of the
reasons people like C is "I can get close to the metal", but as soon as
you do (which frequently requires reliance on something
implementation-specific) the topicality mavens come down on you like a
ton of bricks.

Because, it turns out, as soon as you do, you've started talking about
something that's relevant only to a small subset of the readership, and
no longer really C-related. In most cases (and certainly in this case),
it turns out that the answer to the question is completely unrelated to C.

Clue 2: Another part of the problem is that the most of the people who
make the "That's not standard C..." argument don't hold their own posts
to the same standard of topicality. (In this you are an honorable
exception, Eric).

It's been pointed out in the past that topic digression is not the same thing
as a thread which starts out offtopic.

-s

 

[bartc]

If someone turns up at a Hospital Emergency Room and complains that his
car
won't start and the Emergency Room should supply a mechanic to fix it,
would the triage nurse say "Certainly, sir. I'll send out our Head Surgeon
to have a look"? Or would she say "Sorry, sir, but this is a Hospital, not
a Garage. We can't help you. But, if you look in the phone book over
there,
you probably can find a garage to assist you."?

Maybe someone just wants a push-start and there might be enough able-bodied
people hanging about in a slack period (as happens here sometimes) to give a
hand.

I used to have a telephone number almost identical to the town's main post
office. When I got the occasional wrong number, it was sometimes easier
(and, if redirected, cheaper) to just answer the query -- such as the cost
of first class post -- than to explain the error they had made in such a way
that they didn't just ring back a minute later.

 

[Keith Thompson]

Maybe someone just wants a push-start and there might be enough
able-bodied people hanging about in a slack period (as happens here
sometimes) to give a hand.

I used to have a telephone number almost identical to the town's main
post office. When I got the occasional wrong number, it was sometimes
easier (and, if redirected, cheaper) to just answer the query -- such
as the cost of first class post -- than to explain the error they had
made in such a way that they didn't just ring back a minute later.

Someone shows up at a Hospital Emergency Room complaining that his
car won't start. It's not very busy at the moment, and some of
the staff probably know something about auto mechanics, so perhaps
they *could* help. But one of the doctors on duty says "Sorry,
this is a hospital; I think there's a garage down the street".

Would you then spend the rest of the day hanging around in the ER,
telling the staff that they should have been more helpful?

 

[Antoninus Twink]

I see, he's a Guru, is he, to whom we all must genuflect?

Han from China is indeed a guru, though I'd leave the genuflecting to
Heathfield and his christian friends.

He brought his brilliant insight to bear on the hypocrisy of the clc
"regulars", and specialized in puncturing their puffed-up pride and
arrogance and pomposity. He was also willing and able to take them on at
their own game: his knowledge of the C standard was so thorough that he
frequently pointed out errors in the absurd pedantry of Thompson,
Heathfield, Sossman and the rest.

Of course, most people don't like it when other people point out their
mistakes and misunderstandings, so for this reason Han was despised by a
section of the "regulars". Suddenly, a pedantic discussion of the finer
points of the ISO standard became "trolling": such are the desperate
writhings of people who've lost even after they rigged the rules in
their favor.

Sadly, he hasn't posted for a while. Let's hope he'll return to bring
fresh life to this increasingly moribund group. But he will live on as a
legend in the memories of those who follow clc.

 

[Kenny McCormack]

Of course, most people don't like it when other people point out their
mistakes and misunderstandings, so for this reason Han was despised by a
section of the "regulars". Suddenly, a pedantic discussion of the finer
points of the ISO standard became "trolling":

Yes. Han's contribution was showing that the thing is "infinitely
reduce-able" - i.e., it was always possible to out pedant the pedant.
And nobody likes that being hoist on their own petard.

such are the desperate
writhings of people who've lost even after they rigged the rules in
their favor.

Indeed. Quite so.

 

[Eric Sosman]

Someone shows up at a Hospital Emergency Room complaining that his
car won't start. It's not very busy at the moment, and some of
the staff probably know something about auto mechanics, so perhaps
they *could* help. But one of the doctors on duty says "Sorry,
this is a hospital; I think there's a garage down the street".

In the USA (dunno about civilized countries), the doctors
ask for your insurance number, have the lab draw some oil and
brake fluid and run tests on them, send the back seat out for
X-rays, tell you your vehicle needs to lose weight and get more
exercise, throw two aspirin in the gas tank, and charge you $500.

Would you then spend the rest of the day hanging around in the ER,
telling the staff that they should have been more helpful?

Yeah, that's the vandals. Spot on.

 

[Default User]

Given the choice between "That's off topic" and "That's off-topic, but
here's the answer anyway", I am unapologetic in saying that I am going
to choose the latter. (I didn't say "That's off topic" in my reply to
this question, because shock it had already been said).

Where does that end though? If people get answers in spite of being
told they're off-topic, they and others will keep it up. Then you get
into the situation comp.lang.c++ was some years back, an unholy mess.
There, a group of regulars had to get firm on topicality, adopting the
same basic guidelines as CLC, and "right the ship". It's better not to
get in the situation in the first place. Redirection is the correct
most of the time.




Brian

 

[Antoninus Twink]

Yeah, that's the vandals. Spot on.

Bullshit, Eric.

These "vandals" - the Jacob Navias and Kaz Kylekus of the group - have
long ago fixed up the patient and moved on, while the bitter "regs"
stand around bitching about these people who have the NERVE to tread on
their territory by giving people actual help!

I think that with a few more layers of stupid analogies we'll get to the
truth!

 

[Antoninus Twink]

Well, well, well!

Look what's crawled out from under its stone!

Where does that end though? If people get answers in spite of being
told they're off-topic, they and others will keep it up.

Danger! Danger! Just imagine it! If people start helping other people...
OMG, where will it end??!!! This terrible trend must be nipped in the
bud before it gets out of hand! If this isn't stamped out now, we could
end up with a situation where people help each other routinely, day in
day out, instead of picking holes and behaving obstructively! OMG! The
world will end! OMG!

There, a group of regulars had to get firm on topicality, adopting the
same basic guidelines as CLC, and "right the ship".

And how's that approach going for you guys in clc?

Do you really think the "trolls" are going to sit there and take it
while you shaft this group? What the hell have you ever contributed
anyway, apart from "topicality" and netiquette flames?

 

[Antoninus Twink]

Bwian has been known to elude to dark and musty machines he "had
dealings with" that have 13 bit bytes, alternating endianness and no
stack. Fear him.

Frankly, I pity him.

 

[Phil Carmody]

You didn't seize upon Ben's correct and helpful answer, nor did
you deride it for pedantry. You even mentioned that the question
was off topic and suggested a better source of information.

What makes you think Eric was calling you a vandal?

It's not always about you.

Wait a sec, is this the same Jacob Navia that we're talking about?
If it's the traditional one, then you're clearly wrong, Keith.

Phil

 

[Peter Nilsson]

... if you think mildly off topic questions are
whats befouls this newsgroup, you and I have very very
different ideas of the problems here.  

Clue: "That's not standard C, so its off topic" is
(partly) the problem, not the solution.

This is one of the very few forums that deal with the
core language. Contrast that with the _hundreds_ of
forums that will discus anything where main is a valid
identifier. Also contrast the general utility of those
forums.

That people can't get good answers in some of those forums
is not a reason to bring the problems of those forums here.

 Being slightly platform specific is a completely
idiotic reason to preclude any discussion.

Platform specific questions are scope creep. It is not
idiocy to mitigate or avoid that.

 Especially if that platform is as ubiquitous as
the i386.

The virtual C implementation is even more ubiquitous.
Why should it get pushed aside?

 It is ironic, isn't it, that one of the reasons
people like C is "I can get close to the metal",
Agreed.

but as soon as you do (which frequently requires
reliance on something implementation-specific)
the topicality mavens come down on you like a
ton of bricks.  

"You will probably get better responses if you ask
this question in a newsgroup that focuses on Windows
programming."

I'm guessing you're not a builder.

Clue 2: Another part of the problem is that the most
of the people who make the "That's not standard C..."
argument don't hold their own posts to the same standard
of topicality.

True, but 'if they can do it so can I' is a childish argument.

If you have nothing to contribute beyond the observation
that something is implementation dependent, please choose
to remain silent.

Ben's post _was_ a contribution, to the OP and clc. It was
accurate and constructive.

Do you like managers who show people how to work smarter, or
do you prefer managers who do nothing, expecting everyone
else to work harder?

 

[Keith Thompson]

Wait a sec, is this the same Jacob Navia that we're talking about?
If it's the traditional one, then you're clearly wrong, Keith.

Thank you for pouring gasoline on the fire.