why so many frameworks? Can you just put all best ideas in 1?

J

Jeffrey Schwab

gavino said:
Why so many java frameworks?
Can't you just put all the good ideas into 1?
Jeesh

:)

Why all those different food recipes? If chocolate is good, and honeyed
ham is good, why not just stick it all in a blender and get one really
solid product?
 
O

Oliver Wong

gavino said:
Why so many java frameworks?
Can't you just put all the good ideas into 1?
Jeesh

Different tools are effective for different purposes, and the most
effective tool depends on the problem you're trying to solve. Sometimes it's
smarter to use a car, sometimes it's smarter to use a truck, sometimes it's
smarter to use a bycicle, and sometimes it's smarter to walk.

- Oliver
 
M

Mark Rafn

gavino said:
Why so many java frameworks?

So many different needs, and different tradeoffs to make for different
applications and environments.
Can't you just put all the good ideas into 1?

Sure, just like we've successfully done with cars, OSs, supermarkets,
restaurants, computer manufacturers, banks, etc.
 
M

Mike Schilling

Mark Rafn said:
So many different needs, and different tradeoffs to make for different
applications and environments.

And, to be fair, so many different inventors of frameworks. While it's true
that a multiplicity of frameworks is needed, that doesn't mean all the ones
that exist are. We don't really need all of DOM, DOM4J, and JDOM.
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=

Mike said:
And, to be fair, so many different inventors of frameworks. While it's true
that a multiplicity of frameworks is needed, that doesn't mean all the ones
that exist are. We don't really need all of DOM, DOM4J, and JDOM.

Yep. Besides the diversity of requirements there are also a good
portion of NIH syndrome.

Arne
 
M

Mark Rafn

Mike Schilling said:
And, to be fair, so many different inventors of frameworks.

Absolutely. The creator, distribution mechanism, support system and
expectation of updates are all part of the tradeoffs to consider when choosing
one, or choosing whether to write one.
that exist are. We don't really need all of DOM, DOM4J, and JDOM.

I take a more philosophical view. Nothing gets created that someone doesn't
think they need. If any of these weren't needed, they wouldn't have been
created and wouldn't be used.
 
J

Javier

gavino ha escrito:
Why so many java frameworks?
Can't you just put all the good ideas into 1?
Jeesh

This is a political question.
The answer is because of freedom.
Forcing to "put all the good ideas into 1" is something that comiunism
likes to, and it has been demonstrated that it is not a good thing (and
it goes against freedom, too).
Extending your question, why so much languages? why so much computer
sellers? why so much companies at all? Let the state control all... ;-)
 
G

gavino

Hm I would say that a car is a compilation of the best ideas thought of
so far.
airbag, anti lock break, cd changer system, high beams, automatic
windows, defogger, ac, heat, etc

Engineering is often about combining the best things in new complete
combination rather than inventing new things.

It just seems there are a perponderance of frameworks.

I do like that anyone can do it, that is very free market, but your
think there would be a selection of strongest genes over time etc.

I hesitate to use java to do programming because of what I see as
bloat.

java is optimized for MBA empoyment needs for reusability of
programmers rather than seeming to have the elegance of say scheme.

It is used th emost for many reasons I assume.

I just am trying to sort out many things I see about software
production before I invest time in leanring these tools.

Some even say that taking logic out of DB and placing in appserver and
framework is bad and everything should exist in tables.

comments?

Cross polination doesn't seem to be as rampant as it could be.
 
B

Bart

Mark Rafn wrote:
I take a more philosophical view. Nothing gets created that someone doesn't
think they need.
^^^^

Note the word 'think'.
If any of these weren't needed, they wouldn't have been
created and wouldn't be used.

Here you incorrectly extrapolate from perception of need to actual
need. Many managers *think* they need a new technology when they
actually don't.

Regards,
Bart.
 
P

pergamon

I totally agree with you, there are just too many.. I've recently
started a web project and ended up with Hibernate, Spring, Shale-tiles
and JSF though there are a bunch of others to read through before one
can decide (Cayenne, Tapestry, Faclets and the list goes on) . . . I
think that the java community have been too small and are too "new" for
one big, or a few, specialised frameworks for the "main needs" have had
time to emerge. The frameworks today try to strive in beeing general
purpose within the different areas database(hibernate), middle
tier(spring) and so on. But to actually put them up together takes
quite some reading and time.

Though I'm certain that there "soon" will come more "collections of the
good parts". I.e. one solution for "making web pages", "making
applets", "making games"... An example is Shale which seems to be a
promising collection of different parts of bigger frameworks,
specialised in making webpages, but the documentation is severly
lacking as yet.

Regards Tomas.
 
L

Lew

gavino said:
Cross polination [sic] doesn't seem to be as rampant as it could be.

How could you have cross-pollination unless you have a multiplicity of
antecedents? Sounds like an argument in favor of a multitude of frameworks.

How would you use a GUI framework to develop a Web service, or vice versa?
Different frameworks for different purposes.

"A marketplace of ideas." Competing frameworks ineluctably evince different
strengths and weaknesses. Competition and cross-pollination should benefit
the developer over the long haul.

There are many kinds of car, not all with anti-lock brakes, and the Edsel is a
memory.

- Lew
 
D

David Segall

gavino said:
Why so many java frameworks?
Can't you just put all the good ideas into 1?
Jeesh
I think the reason is that by the time a framework, or language,
satisfies all the requirements it is so overladen with features that
it is incomprehensible. The situation is made much worse because many
of the features are only there for backward compatibility and there
are several ways to achieve the same result.
 
O

Oliver Wong

gavino said:
Hm I would say that a car is a compilation of the best ideas thought of
so far.
airbag, anti lock break, cd changer system, high beams, automatic
windows, defogger, ac, heat, etc

But there are different types cars, all with different design goals:
luxury cars, sports cars, mini-vans, race cars, etc. There are cars that run
on gasoline, others than run on electricity, and there are hybrids. Not
everyone agrees on what is the one best *TYPE* of car, nevermind the one
best car itself.

- Oliver
 
M

Mark Rafn

Bart said:
Here you incorrectly extrapolate from perception of need to actual
need. Many managers *think* they need a new technology when they
actually don't.

Heh. It's fun to bash dumb managers, but I'd love to hear your definition of
"need" that includes writing any software at all and doesn't include the
variation in technology found in different frameworks.
 
K

KiLVaiDeN

gavino said:
Why so many java frameworks?
Can't you just put all the good ideas into 1?
Jeesh

As long as there is not a single answer to a given question, there
won't be a single framework for all problems.

Cheers
K
 
T

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen

gavino said:
Why so many java frameworks?
Can't you just put all the good ideas into 1?
Jeesh

Are you coming from the "single source, single solution" world of
Micrsoft Windows development perchance? You need to unlearn that
choice is bad.
 
B

Bart

Mark said:
Heh. It's fun to bash dumb managers, but I'd love to hear your definition of
"need" that includes writing any software at all and doesn't include the
variation in technology found in different frameworks.

I didn't say that there are no true needs. I'm just disagreeing with
your statement that everything that ever gets created is out of a true
need, as opposed to hype.

Regards,
Bart.
 
C

Chris Uppal

Oliver said:
But there are different types cars, all with different design goals:
luxury cars, sports cars, mini-vans, race cars, etc. There are cars that
run on gasoline, others than run on electricity, and there are hybrids.
Not everyone agrees on what is the one best *TYPE* of car, nevermind the
one best car itself.

But note that there is also far more choice in that market than is justified by
the variance in customers' requirements. If one manufacturer manages to make
money from a range then just about every other manufacturer will attempt to cut
themselves a piece of the same pie.

Something similar happens in the frameworks world; and that -- together with
the typical programmer's uncontrollable fear of simplicity -- makes for a more
than confusing situation.

Unfortunate, but probably inevitable...

-- chris
 

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