Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?

W

walterbyrd

Some think it will.

Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions
of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers
have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that
might change.

IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know.
 
B

Bill

walterbyrd said:
Some think it will.

Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions
of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers
have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that
might change.

IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know.

The change might also provide an opportunity for further expansion of
jython, eating into Java "marketshare"
 
H

Harry George

walterbyrd said:
Some think it will.

Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions
of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers
have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that
might change.

IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know.

Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at
least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain.

Long answer: Changing licenses doesn't magically change Java's
architecture. It is still a closed world of reinvent-the-wheel,
my-way-or-the-highway. Which is antithetical to Python's promiscuous
interface-with-anything approach.
 
M

Maurice LING

walterbyrd said:
Some think it will.

Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions
of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers
have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that
might change.

IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know.

I'm hoping for a more optimistic outcome that this may open a
possibility for tigher interoperability between java programs and python
programs. That is, run java class files or java codes natively on python
VM. Is this still a blue sky dream?

maurice
 
J

John Bokma

Harry George said:
Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at
least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain.

Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a
language that works best for them.
 
M

Matimus

John said:
Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a
language that works best for them.

Adding to that, they pick the language that works best for them and the
situation. Python has a significant advantage in many applications
because it is dynamic and can be used for rapid development. IMHO,
usually more rapid than Java. Hopefully Java being GPL'd will make it
easier to deploy applications, especially on Linux. There are many
applications where Java has a significant advantage. I plan to make use
of both.
 
D

Dan Lenski

walterbyrd said:
Some think it will.

Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions
of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers
have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that
might change.

IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know.

I don't think so. Java and Python don't really belong to the same
"class" of programming languages:

C++, Java: strongly typed, statically typed object-oriented programming
languages... minimal runtime means that these languages can be compiled
to native executables easily (yes, Java can now with things like GCJ
and appropriate libraries)

Python, Perl, Ruby: dynamically typed object-oriented programming
languages... lots of runtime intelligence allows you to do things like
create a new class or function at runtime, or look up a symbol based on
a string of its name, or execute a string containing source code (these
things make the language more flexible but pretty hard to compile to
native code without embedding an interpreter)

The "mindset" required to program effectively in C++ or Java is very
different from that required to program effectively in Python or Perl,
in a way that's quite separate from the syntactical distinctions
between these languages... I think most programmers settle comfortably
into one mindset that fits best with the tasks they do, and try not to
move outside of it.

The ranks of C++ programmers have already been diminished by many of
them jumping to Java, since it offers less complex syntax and better
cross-platform support. I expect that GPL'ed Java will accelerate the
decline of C++. But I don't see Java competing directly with Python...

Dan
 
B

Bruno Desthuilliers

John Bokma a écrit :
Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a
language that works best for them.
Which is *exactly* what Harry said...
 
J

John Bokma

Bruno Desthuilliers said:
John Bokma a écrit :
Which is *exactly* what Harry said...

No, there is a very clear difference if one is willing to see it.
 
J

John Bokma

Matimus said:
Adding to that, they pick the language that works best for them and
the situation.
Yup.

Python has a significant advantage in many applications
because it is dynamic and can be used for rapid development. IMHO,
usually more rapid than Java. Hopefully Java being GPL'd will make it
easier to deploy applications, especially on Linux. There are many
applications where Java has a significant advantage. I plan to make
use of both.

Yes, my point. I program mostly in Perl, use Java now and then, and am
still working on learning Python.
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a
language that works best for them.

Hang on, are we talking about intelligent people, or the sort of people
who like coding in Java? *wink*

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Seriously though, there is no contradiction between the idea of "people
use Python instead of Java because they prefer to avoid pain" and "people
choose the language that works best for them". They could both be true (or
neither, but that's another story). We're all individuals, with our own
little quirks, but we are all also human beings with a lot in common and
the idea of an objectively "less painful" language is not silly. It may
very well be that Python is objectively easier to use and less painful
than Java for the majority of people. (I have no opinion on whether that
it true, but merely note that it is a logical possibility.)

Ease of use is not the sole reason for choosing a computer language. It is
a virtue, but not the only virtue. I wouldn't like to see video drivers
written in pure Python.

The reality is, most programmers don't so much choose a language as
have one thrust at them. I estimate (and by estimate I mean guess) that
90% of coders have never learnt a second language, and 99% have never
learnt a third. We're spoiled here, because the sort of people who
regularly contribute to comp.lang.* are often those with experience
with three, four, a dozen languages -- hardly representative of the coders
who churn out VB code all day, or those who learn nothing but Java at Uni
and then go straight into a Java job. We often see on comp.lang.*
people who programfor the love of programming. They'd program even if they
weren't paid for it. But being a programmer is also done by those who
program for the pay, not for the love of the job. They don't go home and
night and spend three hours on Usenet answering newbies' questions.

In many universities and schools, the choice is often between Java (in
previous times C++) or nothing. People might choose Java in some sense,
but they can hardly be said to choose Java because it works best for them
if they know no other languages to compare it to!

(The same naturally goes for those who only know Python, or any other
language.)
 
D

Dennis Lee Bieber

I'm hoping for a more optimistic outcome that this may open a
possibility for tigher interoperability between java programs and python
programs. That is, run java class files or java codes natively on python
VM. Is this still a blue sky dream?
Most unlikely to happen... I don't really see anyone going to the
effort to change the javac back-end to target a totally different
runtime engine.
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
(e-mail address removed) (e-mail address removed)
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
(Bestiaria Support Staff: (e-mail address removed))
HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
 
J

John Bokma

Steven D'Aprano said:
Seriously though, there is no contradiction between the idea of
"people use Python instead of Java because they prefer to avoid pain"

It sounds like a typical fanboy statement to me, since it implies that
Java is always a pain, and Python is perfect. I can't take such a
statement nor the person writing it down serious at all.
 
M

Maurice LING

Dennis said:
Most unlikely to happen... I don't really see anyone going to the
effort to change the javac back-end to target a totally different
runtime engine.

I admit that it is very very unlikely. I guess it is just a wild dream
of mine to run Java bytecodes and Python bytecodes on Python VM. I do
have a wild vision that we can import java libraries (as jar files) into
CPython.


ML
 
C

Chris Brat

I do have a wild vision that we can import java libraries (as jar files) into CPython.

Isnt this being achieved by Jython (python code using Java libraries),
and in future by the Java scripting framework added into Java 6 ?
 
B

Boris Borcic

John said:
It sounds like a typical fanboy statement to me, since it implies that
Java is always a pain, and Python is perfect.

That inference requires as preliminary convention, some clear contrafactual like
"everybody uses Python and nobody uses Java".

IMO, this is a form of assumption that is only legitimate in the purpose of
reaching agreement; while the OP's statement can be read as "those people who
use Python instead of Java do it because..." without recourse to a similar
assumption - what escapes your criticism.

Cheers, BB
 
C

comechao

I'm using python couse its clean, fast, fast to develop, easy, beauty,
an alternative. Java its a "mainstream" lang, GPL or not... i think

*sorry for my (pooooor) english

walterbyrd escreveu:
 
R

Ray

walterbyrd said:
Some think it will.

How so? Just because Java is GPL doesn't mean you can type less while
coding in it.

BufferedOutputStream bos = new BufferedOutputStream(new
FileOutputStream());

is still like that GPL or no GPL, no?
Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions
of Linux and Unix.

The last company I worked for has been delivering products on Windows,
Linux, and Solaris for years. We've never had to resort to any
"platform-specific" stuff with Java.
Some think that is one reason that some developers
have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that
might change.

Becoming a better Java, maybe. Becoming more like Python? No way. I
have high hopes for Jython though, Charles Nutter from JRuby has been
having an ongoing discussion with the Jython developers in jython-dev.
Interesting stuff!
 
J

John Roth

walterbyrd said:
Some think it will.

Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions
of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers
have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that
might change.

IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know.

In my opinion, GPLing Java won't have any immediate effect
on who uses which for what kind of project. Longer term, however,
I see a number of efforts to clean up some of Java's more
egregious syntax problems. I've already seen one proposal,
and there will undoubtedly be others. If any of them fly, they'll
probably be folded into the base in a few years, and that will
diminish the ease of use / large project divide between the
two languages.

John Roth
 

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