Will interest in C++ be revived after the Java fallout?

Discussion in 'C++' started by Nomen Nescio, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. Nomen Nescio

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm

    I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    up.
     
    Nomen Nescio, Jan 25, 2011
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Nomen Nescio

    ptyxs Guest

    On Jan 25, 12:35 pm, Nomen Nescio <> wrote:
    > http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    > management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm
    >
    > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    > the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    > ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    > developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    > aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    > see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    > up.


    Qt and QML are other open source C++ GUIs now offcially supported by
    Intel, Nokia and also by the Linux project Meego.
     
    ptyxs, Jan 25, 2011
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Nomen Nescio

    Öö Tiib Guest

    On Jan 25, 1:35 pm, Nomen Nescio <> wrote:
    > http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    > management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm
    >
    > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    > the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    > ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    > developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    > aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    > see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    > up.


    You speak like there there are only 2 languages to pick from and that
    Java and C++ did compete over something.

    Actually Java, C#, PHP, Javascript, C++, Python, Ruby, C and Objective
    C are currently most popular languages and Java does compete in niche
    of Python, Ruby, PHP and C#.
     
    Öö Tiib, Jan 25, 2011
    #3
  4. Nomen Nescio wrote:
    > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++.


    I think Java and C++ belong to different camps, and therefore they are
    not in competition. A relatively low level language like C++ has always
    been and will keep to be a competitor of C language and of Fortran language.
    I think that in the future C++ will be used less and less for GUI-based
    or Web-based applications, and more and more for embedded software,
    device drivers, numerical analysis libraries, and high-performance video
    games engines.

    --

    Carlo Milanesi
    http://carlomilanesi.wordpress.com/
     
    Carlo Milanesi, Jan 25, 2011
    #4
  5. Nomen Nescio

    James Kanze Guest

    On Jan 25, 6:25 pm, Carlo Milanesi <>
    wrote:
    > Nomen Nescio wrote:
    > > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++.


    > I think Java and C++ belong to different camps, and therefore they are
    > not in competition. A relatively low level language like C++ has always
    > been and will keep to be a competitor of C language and of Fortran language.
    > I think that in the future C++ will be used less and less for GUI-based
    > or Web-based applications, and more and more for embedded software,
    > device drivers, numerical analysis libraries, and high-performance video
    > games engines.


    Do people still write GUI applications? I thought that everyone
    used html and a browser for user interaction. (And I'm being
    faceous. I hope.)

    One place C++ very definitely rules is large scale servers. The
    HTML formatting may (and often is) deferred to Java, since
    that's what the web server implementation supports, but the web
    server implementation, and all of the programs that Java
    interrogates to get the data, are written in C++. (The new
    ones, anyway. There are still a lot floating around that were
    written in C.)

    --
    James Kanze
     
    James Kanze, Jan 25, 2011
    #5

  6. > "Öö Tiib" <> wrote in message news:...
    > On Jan 25, 1:35 pm, Nomen Nescio <> wrote:
    > > http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    > > management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm
    > >
    > > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    > > the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    > > ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    > > developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    > > aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    > > see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    > > up.

    >
    > You speak like there there are only 2 languages to pick from and that
    > Java and C++ did compete over something.
    >
    > Actually Java, C#, PHP, Javascript, C++, Python, Ruby, C and Objective
    > C are currently most popular languages and Java does compete in niche
    > of Python, Ruby, PHP and C#.


    C#, C/C++/ObjC and Java are the only 'general purpose' languages, both
    suitable for web and client programs. Python is too slow and PHP is web-
    only.

    Both C# and Java have their problems, both suffer from slow-execution
    speed, need for a runtime, slow startup times and decompiling
    insecurity. In the case of C# it only runs on Windows (or at the least
    is only supported by Microsoft on this platform). Java suffers from
    complexity and Oracle's ownership which will mean that you'll pay
    though your nose just to use it (they'll make sure you can only use it
    if you buy their ridiculously expensive middleware and database).

    C is error prone and archaic and not useful for anything more complex
    than a demo program. Therefore C++ remains the only obvious choice. C++
    has the added advantage of running fine on low-horsepower systems and
    taking up minimal resouces (compared to C#, Java and especially
    Python).\

    Because of the insidious patent system in the U.S. it will be sheer
    impossible to build a clean-room version of a Java or C#-like language.
    Oracle (and Sun before it) probably patented every aspect of the syntax
    and even though most of their patents could be invalidated in
    subsequent trials this process could take decades and would run up huge
    legal bills for anyone foolish enough to try this route.
     
    Anonymous Remailer (austria), Jan 25, 2011
    #6
  7. Nomen Nescio

    Ian Collins Guest

    On 01/26/11 09:30 AM, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:
    >> "Öö Tiib"<> wrote in message news:...
    >> On Jan 25, 1:35 pm, Nomen Nescio<> wrote:
    >>> http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    >>> management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm
    >>>
    >>> I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    >>> community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    >>> the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    >>> ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    >>> developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    >>> aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    >>> see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    >>> up.

    >>
    >> You speak like there there are only 2 languages to pick from and that
    >> Java and C++ did compete over something.
    >>
    >> Actually Java, C#, PHP, Javascript, C++, Python, Ruby, C and Objective
    >> C are currently most popular languages and Java does compete in niche
    >> of Python, Ruby, PHP and C#.

    >
    > C#, C/C++/ObjC and Java are the only 'general purpose' languages, both
    > suitable for web and client programs. Python is too slow and PHP is web-
    > only.


    No it isn't, PHP can be used as a general purpose scripting language.

    > C is error prone and archaic and not useful for anything more complex
    > than a demo program.


    or you operating system kernel....

    --
    Ian Collins
     
    Ian Collins, Jan 25, 2011
    #7
  8. Nomen Nescio

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    On Tue, 2011-01-25, Nomen Nescio wrote:
    ....
    > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++.


    As far as I'm concerned, that fallout already happened between Sun and
    us in the 1990s:

    Sun's handling of the Java language has been both politically and
    technically obtuse. Java's first GUI toolkit, AWT, was a mess that
    had to be essentially replaced. Withdrawing the language from
    ECMA/ISO standardization further nettled many developers already
    upset by features of the Sun Community Source License (SCSL).
    Restrictions in the SCSL continue to hamper open-source
    implementations of Java 1.2 and their J2EE (Java 2 Enterprise
    Edition) specification.

    http://catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch14s04.html#java

    I personally rejected it early when I realized that unlike all other
    languages I knew, it didn't come with any straight mappings to the
    Unix APIs. No getopt-style command line parsing, and so on ...

    /Jorgen

    --
    // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
    \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
     
    Jorgen Grahn, Jan 25, 2011
    #8
  9. Nomen Nescio

    Ian Collins Guest

    On 01/26/11 10:32 AM, Andy Champ wrote:
    > On 25/01/2011 20:47, Ian Collins wrote:
    >>
    >>> C is error prone and archaic and not useful for anything more complex
    >>> than a demo program.

    >>
    >> or you operating system kernel....
    >>

    >
    > Big lumps of C++ in Windows.
    >
    > Our system has the back end stuff written in C++, and the pretty front
    > end in C#.


    That's why I specifically said "kernel"!

    --
    Ian Collins
     
    Ian Collins, Jan 25, 2011
    #9
  10. Nomen Nescio

    Paul Guest

    "Nomen Nescio" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    > management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm
    >
    > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    > the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    > ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    > developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    > aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    > see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    > up.
    >
    >


    Your original question seems to imply that C++ is currently less popular
    than Java. I don't know if this is the case or not but Java seems to be the
    language of choice for most application programming.
    I doubt the Oracle argument will have much affect on the popularity of
    either as it's probably no more than corporate bickering.

    C++ is not a portable programming language and any, non trivial, program
    will only work on the system is was designed to work on. Parts of code can
    be modularised and considered protable but this doen't change the fact you
    still need vastly different programs and different sets of debugging and
    testing trials etc etc. Because of this think C++ will become more
    specialised towards low-mid level OS routines and high performance graphics.
    Front end applications will be left to other languages such as Java and
    dotnet langs to name a few.
     
    Paul, Jan 25, 2011
    #10
  11. Nomen Nescio

    James Guest

    "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <> wrote in
    message news:...
    [...]

    > In the case of C# it only runs on Windows (or at the least
    > is only supported by Microsoft on this platform).


    http://www.mono-project.com

    [...]
     
    James, Jan 25, 2011
    #11
  12. On 25 jan, 20:43, James Kanze <> wrote:
    > On Jan 25, 6:25 pm, Carlo Milanesi <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Nomen Nescio wrote:
    > > > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > > > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++.

    > > I think Java and C++ belong to different camps, and therefore they are
    > > not in competition. A relatively low level language like C++ has always
    > > been and will keep to be a competitor of C language and of Fortran language.
    > > I think that in the future C++ will be used less and less for GUI-based
    > > or Web-based applications, and more and more for embedded software,
    > > device drivers, numerical analysis libraries, and high-performance video
    > > games engines.

    >
    > Do people still write GUI applications?  I thought that everyone
    > used html and a browser for user interaction.  (And I'm being
    > faceous.  I hope.)


    With XUL/Gecko, application can be (and actually are) built using a
    mix of HTML, Javascript and C++.

    I have briefly dabbled with the tools and making C++ and Javascript
    communicate is still painful/tedious. But the final result is quite
    rewarding; thinking of all the people for which the main feature of
    your program is that you can skin it at will :)

    --
    Michael
     
    Michael Doubez, Jan 26, 2011
    #12
  13. Nomen Nescio

    Ian Collins Guest

    On 01/26/11 09:43 PM, Michael Doubez wrote:
    > On 25 jan, 20:43, James Kanze<> wrote:
    >> On Jan 25, 6:25 pm, Carlo Milanesi<>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Nomen Nescio wrote:
    >>>> I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    >>>> community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++.
    >>> I think Java and C++ belong to different camps, and therefore they are
    >>> not in competition. A relatively low level language like C++ has always
    >>> been and will keep to be a competitor of C language and of Fortran language.
    >>> I think that in the future C++ will be used less and less for GUI-based
    >>> or Web-based applications, and more and more for embedded software,
    >>> device drivers, numerical analysis libraries, and high-performance video
    >>> games engines.

    >>
    >> Do people still write GUI applications? I thought that everyone
    >> used html and a browser for user interaction. (And I'm being
    >> faceous. I hope.)

    >
    > With XUL/Gecko, application can be (and actually are) built using a
    > mix of HTML, Javascript and C++.
    >
    > I have briefly dabbled with the tools and making C++ and Javascript
    > communicate is still painful/tedious. But the final result is quite
    > rewarding; thinking of all the people for which the main feature of
    > your program is that you can skin it at will :)


    Actually it no more painful/tedious than making PHP and JavaScript
    communicate. If anything it is slightly easier and definitely more
    flexible. Most of the web application I write deal with some form of
    system management and many of the APIs only have C bindings, so C++ is
    the obvious choice for the implementation language. If the client wants
    PHP then C++ is a good choice for a PHP extension!

    --
    Ian Collins
     
    Ian Collins, Jan 26, 2011
    #13
  14. Nomen Nescio

    James Kanze Guest

    On Jan 25, 10:28 pm, "Paul" <> wrote:
    > "Nomen Nescio" <> wrote in message


    > news:...


    > >http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    > > management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm


    > > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    > > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    > > the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    > > ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    > > developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    > > aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    > > see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    > > up.


    > Your original question seems to imply that C++ is currently less popular
    > than Java. I don't know if this is the case or not but Java seems to be the
    > language of choice for most application programming.


    It depends on the domain. I've mostly worked on large scale
    servers, and I've never seen Java there. Here (purely
    application), we use Java, C# and C++, but its well over 90% C++
    (mainly numerical number crunching). In the telephone systems
    (network management) I've worked on, Java has been limited to
    front ends, and in many cases, those have been replaced by
    outputting HTML, and using Firefox as your front end.

    > I doubt the Oracle argument will have much affect on the popularity of
    > either as it's probably no more than corporate bickering.


    I totally agree. Those who would have been turned off by one
    company managing everything dropped Java a long time ago;
    despite the claims, Sun was never very open with it.

    > C++ is not a portable programming language and any, non trivial, program
    > will only work on the system is was designed to work on.


    That's not been my experience. I've moved several large (500
    KLoc or more) applications from Windows or Solaris to Linux,
    with no real problems. Given the way the language has evolved,
    it's often been more work to move to a more recent version of
    the compiler than to move from Windows to Unix.

    Of course, there are parts that aren't standard, like the GUI.
    My applications typically don't have a GUI, but I've heard of
    people using Qt or WxWindows and porting without problems.

    > Parts of code can
    > be modularised and considered protable but this doen't change the fact you
    > still need vastly different programs and different sets of debugging and
    > testing trials etc etc.


    You definitely need a distinct binary, and regardless of the
    language, you definitely want to test on all of the platforms
    your software will run on. (One could argue that this is a plus
    for C++. The fact that your application can't run on a machine
    you haven't built it for means that you can be sure of being
    able to test it on all platforms it will run on. Java's binary
    portability can cut both ways.

    > Because of this think C++ will become more
    > specialised towards low-mid level OS routines and high performance graphics.
    > Front end applications will be left to other languages such as Java and
    > dotnet langs to name a few.


    Because of the lack of a standard library, C++ does have
    a disadvantage when it comes to GUI's; I'd probably recommend
    Java for a GUI front end, rather that C++, if for some reason
    just outputting HTML to a browser wasn't sufficient. But the
    GUI front end is just a very small part of most applications.

    --
    James Kanze
     
    James Kanze, Jan 26, 2011
    #14
  15. Nomen Nescio

    jacob navia Guest

    Le 25/01/11 21:30, Anonymous Remailer (austria) a écrit :

    > C is error prone and archaic and not useful for anything more complex
    > than a demo program.


    The linux kernel is a demo program then. It demonstrates how blind are
    the C++ zealots, that are unable to see beyond their nose (maybe because
    their glasses are template smoked)
     
    jacob navia, Jan 26, 2011
    #15
  16. Nomen Nescio

    Daniel Guest

    On Jan 25, 2:43 pm, James Kanze <> wrote:
    >
    > One place C++ very definitely rules is large scale servers.  The
    > HTML formatting may (and often is) deferred to Java, since
    > that's what the web server implementation supports, but the web
    > server implementation, and all of the programs that Java
    > interrogates to get the data, are written in C++.  (The new
    > ones, anyway...)
    >

    Interesting. Do you believe that that's true of WebLogic, TIBCO
    Enterprise Message Service, TIBCO BusinessWorks, IBM Process Server,
    Sonic, Mule, ServiceMix, Tomcat, JBOSS? They sure come with a lot of
    jar files!

    Thanks,
    Daniel
     
    Daniel, Jan 26, 2011
    #16
  17. Nomen Nescio

    Paul Guest

    "James Kanze" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Jan 25, 10:28 pm, "Paul" <> wrote:
    >> "Nomen Nescio" <> wrote in message

    >
    >> news:...

    >
    >> >http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/app-dev-and-programme-
    >> > management/2011/01/the-future-of-java/index.htm

    >
    >> > I wonder if the enormous fallout between Oracle and the open-source
    >> > community over Java will lead to a renewed interest in C++. After all,
    >> > the fight between Oracle and the FOSS community is ultimately one of
    >> > ownership. Since there's no question about the ownership of C++ most
    >> > developers and companies may once again move back to C++, but this time
    >> > aided by open-source GUI frameworks such as wxWidgets. Also, we might
    >> > see a C++ FastCGI web-application framework similar to ASP.NET MVC pop-
    >> > up.

    >
    >> Your original question seems to imply that C++ is currently less popular
    >> than Java. I don't know if this is the case or not but Java seems to be
    >> the
    >> language of choice for most application programming.

    >
    > It depends on the domain. I've mostly worked on large scale
    > servers, and I've never seen Java there. Here (purely
    > application), we use Java, C# and C++, but its well over 90% C++
    > (mainly numerical number crunching). In the telephone systems
    > (network management) I've worked on, Java has been limited to
    > front ends, and in many cases, those have been replaced by
    > outputting HTML, and using Firefox as your front end.
    >
    >> I doubt the Oracle argument will have much affect on the popularity of
    >> either as it's probably no more than corporate bickering.

    >
    > I totally agree. Those who would have been turned off by one
    > company managing everything dropped Java a long time ago;
    > despite the claims, Sun was never very open with it.
    >
    >> C++ is not a portable programming language and any, non trivial, program
    >> will only work on the system is was designed to work on.

    >
    > That's not been my experience. I've moved several large (500
    > KLoc or more) applications from Windows or Solaris to Linux,
    > with no real problems. Given the way the language has evolved,
    > it's often been more work to move to a more recent version of
    > the compiler than to move from Windows to Unix.
    >

    Even a very basic windows winmain function and messsage loop cannot be
    ported, your lucky if it runs on your version of windows nvm Linux.
    As soon as you start adding code to make api calls you further add to
    complexities.
    I don't know about Solaris and linux but I know the whole structure of a
    windows program is built arount the OS and I can't see how a C++ windows
    program can be ported.
    If you start getting into windows services and non GUI programs then its
    going to be even more OS specific.

    I don't see how porting a large windows program can be considered, over
    rewriting a new program. I think you must have a had a very special one-off
    case with your program with very little interaction with the OS.

    > Of course, there are parts that aren't standard, like the GUI.
    > My applications typically don't have a GUI, but I've heard of
    > people using Qt or WxWindows and porting without problems.
    >
    >> Parts of code can
    >> be modularised and considered protable but this doen't change the fact
    >> you
    >> still need vastly different programs and different sets of debugging and
    >> testing trials etc etc.

    >
    > You definitely need a distinct binary, and regardless of the
    > language, you definitely want to test on all of the platforms
    > your software will run on. (One could argue that this is a plus
    > for C++. The fact that your application can't run on a machine
    > you haven't built it for means that you can be sure of being
    > able to test it on all platforms it will run on. Java's binary
    > portability can cut both ways.
    >
    >> Because of this think C++ will become more
    >> specialised towards low-mid level OS routines and high performance
    >> graphics.
    >> Front end applications will be left to other languages such as Java and
    >> dotnet langs to name a few.

    >
    > Because of the lack of a standard library, C++ does have
    > a disadvantage when it comes to GUI's; I'd probably recommend
    > Java for a GUI front end, rather that C++, if for some reason
    > just outputting HTML to a browser wasn't sufficient. But the
    > GUI front end is just a very small part of most applications.
    >
    > --


    Java has many other libraries for telephony and networking and hardware
    communication routines. It's not just GUI applicatons where Java has the
    edge in portability.
    It's possible to write a portable multi-socket server program in Java in one
    afternoon.
    I've never looked at the 3D drawing libraries in Java because my vector math
    and calculus is not good enough to be a 3D programmer, but I'm sure it'd be
    fun and probably a bit easier to use than directx.
     
    Paul, Jan 26, 2011
    #17
  18. Nomen Nescio

    Daniel Guest

    On Jan 26, 6:30 am, James Kanze <> wrote:
    > On Jan 25, 10:28 pm, "Paul" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Your original question seems to imply that C++ is currently less popular
    > > than Java. I don't know if this is the case or not but Java seems to be the
    > > language of choice for most application programming.

    >
    > It depends on the domain.  I've mostly worked on large scale
    > servers, and I've never seen Java there.  


    Contrary to James' claim, the growth of Java in the last decade has
    largely been on the server domain, not the GUI domain. The biggest
    growth in Java has been in messaging, middle ware and workflow tooling
    used by large enterprises, as exemplified in products like TIBCO
    Business Works, IBM Process Server, and Sonic ESB, all of which have
    been developed largely in Java. The reasons for this are not
    difficult to understand. Inter-operable middleware that supports
    transactions requires standards. While C++ standardization was focused
    on concepts, lambdas, and and a half dozen or so variants of smart
    pointers, Java standardization was focused on Database (JDBC),
    Messaging (JMS), Transaction Demarcation (JTA), Interface Lookup
    (JNDI), Java Business Integration (JBI), etc. At the same time,
    standard C++ offered abysmal support for XML processing, Unicode, and
    dates, at a time when standardized business workflow scripting was
    being specified in XML. And finally, support for reflection was found
    to be very useful in middle ware tooling. I can't think of any modern
    successful workflow product that was developed largely in C++ over the
    last decade.

    The OP's question is a good one, though.

    -- Daniel
     
    Daniel, Jan 26, 2011
    #18
  19. On 26 jan, 16:48, Daniel <> wrote:
    > On Jan 26, 6:30 am, James Kanze <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Jan 25, 10:28 pm, "Paul" <> wrote:

    >
    > > > Your original question seems to imply that C++ is currently less popular
    > > > than Java. I don't know if this is the case or not but Java seems to be the
    > > > language of choice for most application programming.

    >
    > > It depends on the domain.  I've mostly worked on large scale
    > > servers, and I've never seen Java there.  

    >
    > Contrary to James' claim, the growth of Java in the last decade has
    > largely been on the server domain, not the GUI domain.  The biggest
    > growth in Java has been in messaging, middle ware and workflow tooling
    > used by large enterprises, as exemplified in products like TIBCO
    > Business Works, IBM Process Server, and Sonic ESB, all of which have
    > been developed largely in Java.  The reasons for this are not
    > difficult to understand.  Inter-operable middleware that supports
    > transactions requires standards. While C++ standardization was focused
    > on concepts, lambdas, and and a half dozen or so variants of smart
    > pointers, Java standardization was focused on Database (JDBC),
    > Messaging (JMS), Transaction Demarcation (JTA), Interface Lookup
    > (JNDI), Java Business Integration (JBI), etc.


    Which is not so much a stadard than a unique vision. As an example,
    SQLITE is a second grade citizen in the Java landscape because this so-
    called standardization didn't include it. In truth, it is not real a
    standard language but a standard library. If such a library could
    impose itself on the C++ market (something along the lines of Poco or
    Boost by example), you would have the same result; as it is, there is
    a fragmentation of the offer which is detrimental to the language
    popularity.

    Even Python/Ruby ... are popular because they propose an extensive
    base library that allows abstracting from the underlying OS (up to a
    point).

    I don't criticized, IMHO the Java language was designed for limiting
    the choices in design and in implementation (The philosophy being
    reflected by recent Oracle line of conduct) with the underlying idea
    that with the less freedom, the less mistakes.

    > At the same time,
    > standard C++ offered abysmal support for XML processing, Unicode, and
    > dates, at a time when standardized business workflow scripting was
    > being specified in XML. And finally, support for reflection was found
    > to be very useful in middle ware tooling.


    True but again not much work has been put into it since another
    language filled the gap. And nowadays, more and more tools exist for
    leveraging the gap; in particular code generation (such as Data
    bindings from XML schema).

    >  I can't think of any modern
    > successful workflow product that was developed largely in C++ over the
    > last decade.


    IMO better plugin support in C++ would be a plus in this regard.
    Too bad the proposal didn't make it in c++0x.

    --
    Michael
     
    Michael Doubez, Jan 26, 2011
    #19
  20. Nomen Nescio

    tm Guest

    On 26 Jan., 14:49, "Paul" <> wrote:
    > I don't know about Solaris and linux but I know the whole structure of a
    > windows program is built around the OS ...


    I saw many Windows C++ projects like this.
    Most programmers and managers don't consider portability.
    Today libraries are much more important than the language.
    A good standard library leads to portable programs.
    Java programs are portable because of the Library.
    In my own project I also try to provide a library that
    covers many areas.


    Greetings Thomas Mertes

    --
    Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
    Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
    and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
    syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
    interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.
     
    tm, Jan 26, 2011
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. =?Utf-8?B?SHVnbw==?=
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    312
    =?Utf-8?B?SHVnbw==?= >
    Jul 12, 2005
  2. Barry Burd
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    453
    Barry Burd
    Sep 8, 2003
  3. Ken Sprague
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    687
  4. Replies:
    2
    Views:
    825
  5. andrewg
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    482
    Evertjan.
    Aug 4, 2007
Loading...

Share This Page