Would you done such a project?

[Anton]

Hi

I'm in touch with a company which wants me to develop a new website for
them. The website is like facebook, where users have their own profile
etc...

I've done a project before for them and suddenly in the during development
they gave me a new requirement specifications (features not in original
spec).
And also 3 days before the website was to be set in production, I got an
email about how users profile should be stored. The profiles should not be
stored in the mssql database as we agreed on but in a external system...

okay, the new comany is offering to pay me $41 pr hour and they have set a
limit of 40 hours they will pay me... so if I use 500 hours I will get paid
for 40 hours

Is it just me who think this deal is bad?
How would you handle you got a new software specification in the middle of
the development process?
I don't think I can develop a new site from scratch within 40 hours, if you
know a trick then please tell me.. (maybe there is something I'm not ware
of)

I feel like saying no to doing this project

 

[Scott M.]

I hope you have the original specs. and your compensation in writing.

If they want to change the specs., you should give them a new proposal for
doing it (terms you are happy with) and let them decide if they wish to
accept the new terms.

-Scott

 

[Anton]

Hey Gregory!

They gave me a requirment specification document before I agreed on doing
the project. So when those features was implemented they came along with a
new software specification (another document in writing) which they wanted
implemented. In the contract I signed had a saying that I should expect the
requirements to change as the project moved along, ie as they saw
possibillities they would change the requirements... But I have no idea that
would mean totally new requirements for doing pages not specified in the
original spec. I thought it meant some minor changes (like font, color etc)
I was done with my original requirements but didn't demand more for doing
the extra requirements as I was afraid they wouldn't pay me anything if I
didn't do the second software requirments...

Okay, I think I say no to them...

No, this is not from guru.com

 

[Scott M.]

In the contract I signed had a saying that I should expect the
requirements to change as the project moved along, ie as they saw
possibillities they would change the requirements...

Well, not to sound too motherly, but I hope you've learned why having that
in a contract, without any qualifications, probably isn't something you'll
want to agree to in the future.

In my experience, the client doesn't really know and/or understand what it
takes to build a system properly. As the project progresses, and as they
meet with the contractor and see the project coming along, they begin to
learn a little bit about what it is they are getting. This is when they
start to come up with new requirements that they never even knew existed
when the contract was first signed. "Hey we want to add AJAX to the site to
make it more responsive and give the user a much richer UI." Well, that's
great, but adding AJAX means rearchitecting the site and reengineering code.
It's no small thing. But the client doesn't get that. They just want what
they want.

You've really got to get the scope of the job spelled out clearly and you've
got to agree on how any additional work (beyond what's specified in the
contract) will be handled BEFORE the parties agree on the initial contract.
If you don't, you'll either not get paid for your work, or the job will
never end and you'll get paid peanuts.

-Scott

 

[Anton]

"Hey we want to add AJAX to the site to
make it more responsive and give the user a much richer UI."

I suppose they won't say that, but instead say something like "When clicking
on that button we don't want the entire page to refresh" or something like
that.
I think AJAX is a too programming oriented term for them to know

 

[Scott M.]

"Hey we want to add AJAX to the site to
make it more responsive and give the user a much richer UI."

I suppose they won't say that, but instead say something like "When
clicking on that button we don't want the entire page to refresh" or
something like that.
I think AJAX is a too programming oriented term for them to know

Actually, I've had a client say exactly this. The reason is based on what I
mentioned earlier, which is that during the development process, many
clients get a little bit of information about the technologies involved
because they are being forced to know something about the job.
Unfortunately, a little bit of information can be dangerous!

-Scott

 

[Cowboy \(Gregory A. Beamer\)]

Hi

I'm in touch with a company which wants me to develop a new website for
them. The website is like facebook, where users have their own profile
etc...

I've done a project before for them and suddenly in the during development
they gave me a new requirement specifications (features not in original
spec).
And also 3 days before the website was to be set in production, I got an
email about how users profile should be stored. The profiles should not be
stored in the mssql database as we agreed on but in a external system...

okay, the new comany is offering to pay me $41 pr hour and they have set a
limit of 40 hours they will pay me... so if I use 500 hours I will get
paid for 40 hours

Is it just me who think this deal is bad?
How would you handle you got a new software specification in the middle of
the development process?
I don't think I can develop a new site from scratch within 40 hours, if
you know a trick then please tell me.. (maybe there is something I'm not
ware of)

I feel like saying no to doing this project

I don't do fixed bid unless we agree on the full term of the project up
front. To agree with a number of hours, but not the number of features is
JUST PLAIN STUPID. Also, you have to agree on the number of hours it will
take. Even if they give you the features list, if they are bidding 40 hours
when it will actually take 80 hours, you are being paid half what they are
promising.

There is nothing wrong with taking a fixed bid project, but make sure you
are comfortable with the pay. When someone gives you an hourly rate, but
limits the number of hours, but not the work, then they assume you are an
IDIOT.

Unless you have it in writing they cannot change the scope, and you have a
scope you can complete in 40 hours, I would say the second word in the two
word sentence is OFF.

It is simple math. From what you have stated thus far (company has already
changed scope before without changing pay schedule), I think you are dumb if
you do not get scope in writing and feel comfortable with your ability to
complete it in the amount of time.

BTW, is this something through one of the sites like guru.com?

Peace and Grace,
Greg

MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
Twitter: @gbworld

**********************************************************
| Think outside the box!
|
**********************************************************

 

[Registered User]

Hi

I'm in touch with a company which wants me to develop a new website for
them. The website is like facebook, where users have their own profile
etc...

I'd be scared already because the new website is to be "like" someone
else's existing website. Unspoken expectations can be unreasonable.

I've done a project before for them and suddenly in the during development
they gave me a new requirement specifications (features not in original
spec).

This happens all the time. Part of your job is managing clients and
their expectations <cat-herding analogy />. A 'requirements' doc may
contain a mixture of business requirements, functional requirements
and features. Features can be deferred if the client has been taught
the important differences between a feature and a requirement.

And also 3 days before the website was to be set in production, I got an
email about how users profile should be stored. The profiles should not be
stored in the mssql database as we agreed on but in a external system...

Yeah these things happen, this is why proper layering is important.
Making such a change shouldn't require major design modifications.
Being able to quickly respond to such changes becomes leverage in
future negotiation$.

okay, the new comany is offering to pay me $41 pr hour and they have set a
limit of 40 hours they will pay me... so if I use 500 hours I will get paid
for 40 hours

Run, run, run far far away! This project will never end once your
services are available for free. What plans does the client have for
website management and maintenance?

Is it just me who think this deal is bad?

Horrible for all parties involved.

How would you handle you got a new software specification in the middle of
the development process?

Much depends upon the extent of the proposed changes. Ideally the
over-all design will be able to accommodate most changes.

I don't think I can develop a new site from scratch within 40 hours, if you
know a trick then please tell me.. (maybe there is something I'm not ware
of)

Forty hours is a fine example of an unreasonable expectation. I might
spend 40 hours figuring out what they want/need and determining how
best to approach the task. This is the best time to discover
unconsidered requirements, features and the inevitable gotchas (I hate
ambiguous/contradictory requirements). This is also the time to
consider what tools and technologies are most suitable.

I feel like saying no to doing this project

If your work is done after 40 hours take the money and run, otherwise
just run. No real details have been described yet it is obvious the
client's expectations are completely unrealistic.

regards
A.G.

 

[Anton]

Registered User wrote:
What plans does the client have for website management and maintenance?

Well they expect me to do it for free, if I say no then they are on their
own. Sometimes they have called me the "IT department". Nobody in the
company have any knowledge about programming, .net or databases...

 

[Scott M.]

Registered User wrote:
What plans does the client have for website management and maintenance?

Well they expect me to do it for free, if I say no then they are on their
own. Sometimes they have called me the "IT department". Nobody in the
company have any knowledge about programming, .net or databases...

As a previous reply said, once you give your services away for free, you'll
be doing it forever. Don't be afraid to state your price and let the
customer take it or leave it. Ask yourself what have you really lost if
they "leave it".

-Scott

 

[Gregory A. Beamer]

They gave me a requirment specification document before I agreed on
doing the project. So when those features was implemented they came
along with a new software specification (another document in writing)
which they wanted implemented. In the contract I signed had a saying
that I should expect the requirements to change as the project moved
along, ie as they saw possibillities they would change the
requirements... But I have no idea that would mean totally new
requirements for doing pages not specified in the original spec. I
thought it meant some minor changes (like font, color etc) I was done
with my original requirements but didn't demand more for doing the
extra requirements as I was afraid they wouldn't pay me anything if I
didn't do the second software requirments...

Changing requirements is one thing. Changing requirements, but not
compensating, is another. I understand that business changes, but don't
tell me "the business might change, so the requirements will change, but
you will still only be paid for 40 hours, no matter how we change it".

When I enter a fixed bid contract, I make sure it has something in there
that the bid is for the requirments as envisioned at the front. If the
requirements change, I have to determine if they change the price. The
client can then go elsewhere, but at least I did not get myself into a
corner where I was working hard for nothing.

I try not to fixed bid and perfer to go hourly, with an estimation of time
to complete. This is not so much for me, as I can easily make more money
with a good fixed bid contract, as I can do quality work rather fast, but
to be fair to everyone in the deal.

Okay, I think I say no to them...

Or at least tell them you need the terms spelled out so changes in
requirmenets mean change in pay structure.

Peace and Grace,

 

[Gregory A. Beamer]

Well, not to sound too motherly, but I hope you've learned why having
that in a contract, without any qualifications, probably isn't
something you'll want to agree to in the future.

BTW, from my experience, lawyers are the worst. For someone that bills
hourly for their own work, they want fixed bid and they tend to write
contracts that keep you to the fixed bid, but allow them to change the
requirements at any point in time.

I learned early on to hire my own lawyer to look over any contracts for
work for lawyers. ;-)

Peace and Grace,

 

[Gregory A. Beamer]

That would be a perfectly reasonable client request, and highlights
perfectly the difference between a functional spec and a technical
spec...

But saying you have to add AJAX in addition to the rest of hte work and
still get paid for 40 hours is not reasonable.

Peace and Grace,