Yet another problem with Netscape

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Will Spencer, Jul 24, 2004.

  1. Will Spencer

    Will Spencer Guest

    Before I make my query, I should state that I have validated my HTML with
    W3C and WDG and that I have also validated my CSS with W3C. All three
    tests return 100% scores.

    The URL in question is http://www.fortliberty.org

    It displays perfectly in Internet Explorer, and horribly in Netscape 7.1.

    In Netscape 7.1, the center column displays at the bottom of the screen.

    My CSS is stored in the external file
    http://www.fortliberty.org/special.css

    div.menu floats left. div.rightmenu floats right. div.body is supposed
    to float left, but between div.menu and div.rightmenu.

    On IE, it does. On Netscape 7.1, div.body doesn't start until *below*
    div.menu and then it overwrites portions of div.rightmenu.

    I would like to support this browser, which is currently utilized by 2.5%
    of my sites visitors.

    Assistance will be *much* appreciated!

    Thanks. :)

    Will
     
    Will Spencer, Jul 24, 2004
    #1
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  2. Will Spencer

    Jersey Guest

    Will Spencer <> wrote:

    > Before I make my query, I should state that I have validated my HTML
    > with W3C and WDG and that I have also validated my CSS with W3C. All
    > three tests return 100% scores.


    I didn't validate shit, and I'll bet my website renders better than yours in
    both browsers you mention below.

    www.crampy.com

    > The URL in question is http://www.fortliberty.org
    >
    > It displays perfectly in Internet Explorer, and horribly in Netscape
    > 7.1.


    Correct.

    > In Netscape 7.1, the center column displays at the bottom of the
    > screen.


    Correct again. :-(

    > My CSS is stored in the external file
    > http://www.fortliberty.org/special.css
    >
    > div.menu floats left. div.rightmenu floats right. div.body is
    > supposed to float left, but between div.menu and div.rightmenu.
    >
    > On IE, it does. On Netscape 7.1, div.body doesn't start until *below*
    > div.menu and then it overwrites portions of div.rightmenu.
    >
    > I would like to support this browser, which is currently utilized by
    > 2.5% of my sites visitors.
    >
    > Assistance will be *much* appreciated!


    STUPID! Don't you know only like 85% of the people who hit you, use IE?

    So naturally, you should optimize your site for Opera, Mozilla, and every
    other obscure browser you can download and install within the next 24
    hours..... Then post your question here again.

    Nobody here cares about IE or Netscape. They're all *WAY* to intelligent
    for such nonsense.

    Some of 'em even post links to webpages that render a verticle scrollbar for
    absolutely no reason at all! Cool huh?

    > Thanks. :)


    Welcome. Glad I could help!

    > Will
     
    Jersey, Jul 24, 2004
    #2
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  3. Will Spencer

    boclair Guest

    "Will Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > Before I make my query, I should state that I have validated my HTML with
    > W3C and WDG and that I have also validated my CSS with W3C. All three
    > tests return 100% scores.
    >
    > The URL in question is http://www.fortliberty.org
    >
    > It displays perfectly in Internet Explorer, and horribly in Netscape 7.1.
    >
    > In Netscape 7.1, the center column displays at the bottom of the screen.
    >
    > My CSS is stored in the external file
    > http://www.fortliberty.org/special.css


    Nest the floating divs in the content div

    <div class="body">

    <div class="menu">
    ......
    </div>

    <div class="rightmenu">
    ......
    </div>

    <H1>Welcome to the Fort!</H1>
    .........
     
    boclair, Jul 24, 2004
    #3
  4. Will Spencer

    rf Guest

    Will Spencer wrote

    > Before I make my query, I should state that I have validated my HTML with
    > W3C and WDG and that I have also validated my CSS with W3C. All three
    > tests return 100% scores.
    >
    > The URL in question is http://www.fortliberty.org
    >
    > It displays perfectly in Internet Explorer, and horribly in Netscape 7.1.


    You have floated the class="body" div but you have not specified a width. It
    is up to the UA to determine the outcome of this. IE chooses to fit the div
    in whatever canvas is left after the other two divs have been rendered. The
    other browsers decide that the div will be as wide as its content, that is
    100% of the canvas. Of course then it will not fit between the other two
    divs and so gets shunted to the bottom.

    Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 24, 2004
    #4
  5. Will Spencer

    rf Guest

    Jersey wrote

    > I didn't validate shit,


    You must be using a different validator than the rest of us then :)

    > and I'll bet my website renders better than yours in
    > both browsers you mention below.
    >
    > www.crampy.com


    You may care to explain this then:

    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/crampy.jpg

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 24, 2004
    #5
  6. Will Spencer

    Will Spencer Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:06:06 +0000, rf wrote:

    > Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.


    I don't want to specify margins.

    I want the center div to resize to fit the users browser window as best as
    possible.

    Make sense?

    Will
     
    Will Spencer, Jul 24, 2004
    #6
  7. Will Spencer

    Will Spencer Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:15:27 +1000, boclair wrote:

    > Nest the floating divs in the content div


    Hmmm... I'll give that a try!

    Will
     
    Will Spencer, Jul 24, 2004
    #7
  8. Will Spencer

    rf Guest

    Will Spencer wrote
    > rf wrote:
    >
    > > Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.

    >
    > I don't want to specify margins.
    >
    > I want the center div to resize to fit the users browser window as best as
    > possible.


    You miss the point.

    The margins are to move the text slightly away from the left and right divs,
    and also to make sure the middle content does not flow under the other two
    divs.

    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/fort/fort.htm

    This is the standard way of doing this sort of layout, providing the IE
    float: right bug does not bite you.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 24, 2004
    #8
  9. Will Spencer

    Will Spencer Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:25:34 +0000, rf wrote:

    > Will Spencer wrote
    >> rf wrote:
    >> > Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.

    >> I don't want to specify margins.
    >> I want the center div to resize to fit the users browser window as best as
    >> possible.

    >
    > You miss the point.


    Ah... wait... yes... I believe I did miss your point. <blush>

    I'll re-read your post and check out the URL you posted.

    Thanks. :)

    Will
     
    Will Spencer, Jul 24, 2004
    #9
  10. Will Spencer

    Will Spencer Guest

    > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:25:34 +0000, rf wrote:
    >
    > Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.


    Sweet!

    Perfect and quick!

    I'm certain boclair's suggestion was a good one also, but this one was
    a change to one CSS file and the other one was a change to every .shtml
    file.

    This never occured to me, because I am only now slowly (and unwillingly)
    converting from using % widths on the left and right menus to using
    absolute widths. (Not just on this site...)

    Thanks for the great solution!

    Will
     
    Will Spencer, Jul 24, 2004
    #10
  11. Will Spencer

    rf Guest

    Will Spencer wrote
    > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:25:34 +0000, rf wrote:
    > >
    > > Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.

    >
    > Sweet!
    >
    > Perfect and quick!
    >
    > I'm certain boclair's suggestion was a good one also, but this one was
    > a change to one CSS file and the other one was a change to every .shtml
    > file.


    Good that it works :)

    > This never occured to me, because I am only now slowly (and unwillingly)
    > converting from using % widths on the left and right menus to using
    > absolute widths. (Not just on this site...)


    <aside>
    I recommend that you use em instead of pixels for the width of those menus.
    When your viewer changes her font size you sort of want those menus to stay
    proportinoally the same. Using fixed width means that the menu items start
    to wordwrap as the font gets bigger, making it hard to tell exactly what the
    items are, without mousing over them.

    You probably use fixed width because you are using points for the font size.
    IE is the only browser with a bug that stops you viewer from changing font
    size when you do this. Many people *will* want to change thier font size.
    10pt is, for me, way too small. I like about 16 pixels. If you were to
    specify 100% for font size then you wouldl be choosing a font size that is
    exactly what your viewer has chosen as her favourite.

    I also note that you specify line-height. This mucks up IE when your viewer
    chooses to ignore your font size. Line height is not ignored (another bug)
    so the text lines overlap. Unless you have a very specialized reason you
    should never have to specify line-height. The browser knows how tall the
    lines should be :)

    Your CSS is, in general, overburned with things like this. You specify font
    size, colour, family etc in most of your rules. Don't. Specify these things
    once, in a rule that selects the body. Elements within the body will inherit
    these values. You also only have to change it in one place (within the CSS
    file) if you change your mind.
    </aside>

    >
    > Thanks for the great solution!


    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 24, 2004
    #11
  12. Will Spencer

    boclair Guest

    "Will Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:25:34 +0000, rf wrote:
    > >
    > > Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.

    >
    > Sweet!
    >
    > Perfect and quick!
    >
    > I'm certain boclair's suggestion was a good one also, but this one was
    > a change to one CSS file and the other one was a change to every .shtml
    > file.


    No it wasn't good.

    I didn't read the css file carefully and hadn't noticed the unnecessary
    float on the content div. When I did see "rf" had already advised

    Louise
     
    boclair, Jul 24, 2004
    #12
  13. Will Spencer

    Arondelle Guest

    Will Spencer wrote:
    > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:06:06 +0000, rf wrote:
    >
    >>Do not float that div. Just specify some margins.

    >
    > I don't want to specify margins.
    >
    > I want the center div to resize to fit the users browser window as best as
    > possible.


    Don't float anything: nest your content divs inside a container div and
    position them. You can use percents (%) to specify position and width,
    where appropriate, and everything will resize as necessary.

    For example:
    http://www.red-death.com/~arondelle/home.html
    The stylesheet is home.css

    This works in IE, and works almost entirely in NS. NS has some issues
    with margins and borders.

    Arondelle
    --
    ===========================================================
    To email me, empty the pond with a net
     
    Arondelle, Jul 24, 2004
    #13
  14. Will Spencer

    rf Guest

    Arondelle wrote

    > For example:
    > http://www.red-death.com/~arondelle/home.html


    Oh my... how awful.

    Checks HTML...

    <quote>
    <div id="left">
    <div id="box" style="background-color:#D2ECD2;">
    <font color="#003333">3D Graphics:</font>
    <br><font size=-1><a
    href="http://www.renderosity.com/">Renderosity</a></font>
    </quote>

    gark.

    Checks CSS...

    scrollbar-base-color:#FFF;

    Hmmm.

    position:relative;
    position:relative;
    position:absolute;
    position:absolute;

    position:relative;
    position:relative;
    position:absolute;

    position, position, position applies to real estate advertisments, not web
    sites.

    The browser knows how to position things. Let it. This is probably why you
    are having troubles with the only other browser you may have tested this
    with, other than IE that is.

    Lurk here for a while. You may pick up some information on how to fix the
    above site :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 24, 2004
    #14
  15. Will Spencer

    Arondelle Guest

    rf wrote:
    > Arondelle wrote
    >>For example:
    >>http://www.red-death.com/~arondelle/home.html


    > Oh my... how awful.


    Ah, another Expert who knows everything and is always right. Glad you
    love it. When can I expect the Coding Cops to come and take me away? :p

    [snip]

    > The browser knows how to position things. Let it. This is probably why you
    > are having troubles with the only other browser you may have tested this
    > with, other than IE that is.
    >
    > Lurk here for a while. You may pick up some information on how to fix the
    > above site :)


    So far, the only person here from whom I've learned anything at all is
    brucie.

    Unfortunately for you, the page in question is just for my personal use
    locally and, therefor, doesn't need "fixing." My desktop is just
    covered with assorted tchatchky because it pleases me (I love nasty
    wallpaper): I really don't give a rat's ass if you wouldn't like to use
    it. Write your own home page if you don't like it. So, there! :p

    Meanwhile:

    I had been using floats to build the table, but it rendered the page
    less than useless in Navigator. Position puts the columns where I want
    them and they don't go popping all over the place if I resize the
    browser. (This is important to me: when I browse other sites, I leave
    the browser at full size so it's not an issue. Sometimes, though, I need
    to downsize when I'm working from this local page or with multiple
    instances.)

    So, if stable columns aren't an issue, go ahead use float if you can
    make them go where you want them to. (Provide some code that shows us
    how it's done rather than just criticizing, please.) Once I understood
    how position works, I've found it's a lot less of a headache to get
    things precisely where I want them (which is the whole point of using
    position or float in the first place, yes?) AND it seems to work better
    across browsers. Naturally, YMMV -- especially if you have a lot
    invested in one technique over all others.

    Arondelle
    --
    ===========================================================
    To email me, empty the pond with a net
     
    Arondelle, Jul 24, 2004
    #15
  16. Will Spencer

    C A Upsdell Guest

    "Will Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > Before I make my query, I should state that I have validated my HTML with
    > W3C and WDG and that I have also validated my CSS with W3C. All three
    > tests return 100% scores.
    >
    > The URL in question is http://www.fortliberty.org
    >
    > It displays perfectly in Internet Explorer, and horribly in Netscape 7.1.
    >
    > In Netscape 7.1, the center column displays at the bottom of the screen.
    >
    > My CSS is stored in the external file
    > http://www.fortliberty.org/special.css
    >
    > div.menu floats left. div.rightmenu floats right. div.body is supposed
    > to float left, but between div.menu and div.rightmenu.
    >
    > On IE, it does. On Netscape 7.1, div.body doesn't start until *below*
    > div.menu and then it overwrites portions of div.rightmenu.
    >
    > I would like to support this browser, which is currently utilized by 2.5%
    > of my sites visitors.
    >
    > Assistance will be *much* appreciated!


    Looks fine to me in Mozilla 1.7.1 and Netscape 7.1.
     
    C A Upsdell, Jul 24, 2004
    #16
  17. rf wrote:

    > Jersey wrote
    >>I didn't validate shit,

    >
    > You must be using a different validator than the rest of us then :)


    I've heard they've got some snazzy electronic toilets in Japan with all
    sorts of weird functions... maybe those things will validate your shit?

    --
    == Dan ==
    Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
    Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
    Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/
     
    Daniel R. Tobias, Jul 24, 2004
    #17
  18. Will Spencer

    rf Guest

    Arondelle
    > rf wrote:
    > > Arondelle wrote


    > >>http://www.red-death.com/~arondelle/home.html

    >
    > > Oh my... how awful.

    >
    > Ah, another Expert who knows everything and is always right.


    No. I don't know everything and I am not always right. It this case
    however...

    > > Lurk here for a while. You may pick up some information on how to fix

    the
    > > above site :)


    > So far, the only person here from whom I've learned anything at all is
    > brucie.


    I'll pass that on to him when he returns from sabattical :)

    > Unfortunately for you, the page in question is just for my personal use
    > locally and, therefor, doesn't need "fixing."


    If you are going to offer it up as an example of how to do things then yes
    it does need fixing. At the moment it is not a good example. You yourself
    even state that it does not work in non-IE browsers. Remember, there are
    newbies here. They may just believe you and use your code.

    With a little work it could become a quite good example of a three column
    layout, better in fact than many found via google.

    In any case your advice is incorrect. One of the standard ways of producing
    a multi column page is to use float: left. It is *much* easier than
    positioning stuff all over the place. It is also dead simple to add/remove
    columns. Whack an extra column in the HTML and change one number in the CSS.

    > So, if stable columns aren't an issue, go ahead use float if you can
    > make them go where you want them to. (Provide some code that shows us
    > how it's done rather than just criticizing, please.)


    Here ya go:

    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/arondelle/

    CSS at
    view-source:http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/arondelle/home.css

    Tested in IE6, Mozilla and Opera.

    Whose CSS is simpler and easier to understand/maintain?

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 25, 2004
    #18
  19. Will Spencer

    Matrix Guest

    Matrix, Jul 25, 2004
    #19
  20. Will Spencer

    rf Guest

    rf, Jul 25, 2004
    #20
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