Zope 3

Discussion in 'Python' started by Derick van Niekerk, Apr 25, 2006.

  1. I have been developing in PHP for some time now and needed to look into
    application frameworks to speed up my development. I was looking into
    Horde and CakePHP before I was introduced to Python. I started learing
    python and within a few *hours* I already wrote my first small program
    and I still use it!

    I love Python! Then I was introduced to Zope by freak accident. While
    Zope looked like the answer to my dillemma, I still can't get my head
    wrapped around it. Is it because I don't know Python well enough? Or is
    it just that difficult to learn?

    I would like to start my next web project (a database of demographic
    info on scientists in Africa) on Zope 3. Could anybody point me in the
    right direction? Where should I start?
     
    Derick van Niekerk, Apr 25, 2006
    #1
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  2. Derick van Niekerk wrote:
    > I have been developing in PHP for some time now and needed to look into
    > application frameworks to speed up my development. I was looking into
    > Horde and CakePHP before I was introduced to Python. I started learing
    > python and within a few *hours* I already wrote my first small program
    > and I still use it!
    >
    > I love Python! Then I was introduced to Zope by freak accident. While
    > Zope looked like the answer to my dillemma, I still can't get my head
    > wrapped around it. Is it because I don't know Python well enough? Or is
    > it just that difficult to learn?


    Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
    learn (nor the most pythonic). You may want to consider other options
    like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.

    My 2 cents.
    --
    bruno desthuilliers
    python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
    p in ''.split('@')])"
     
    bruno at modulix, Apr 25, 2006
    #2
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  3. Derick van Niekerk

    Benji York Guest

    bruno at modulix wrote:
    > Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
    > learn (nor the most pythonic).


    Those statements apply more to Zope 2 than Zope 3 (and Zope 2 is moving
    more and more toward Zope 3 these days). One of Zope 3's main goals was
    to focus on the Python programmer as a primary target. That being said
    there /are/ some powerful and novel concepts used in Z3 (the component
    framework).

    > You may want to consider other options like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.


    It's true that Z3 is not currently focused very well on the
    "middle-class" developer. It's more of an industrial-strength kind of
    thing, but considerable thought has been given lately on how to build
    bridges so everyone can benefit without being full-time Zope masters.

    Toward that end, I wrote a little quick start guide that might help the
    OP: http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start
    --
    Benji York
     
    Benji York, Apr 25, 2006
    #3
  4. Derick van Niekerk wrote:

    > I love Python! Then I was introduced to Zope by freak accident. While
    > Zope looked like the answer to my dillemma, I still can't get my head
    > wrapped around it. Is it because I don't know Python well enough? Or is
    > it just that difficult to learn?


    I've been hacking Python now for 6 years. I just picked up Zope last month
    and found the learning curve to be quite steep. It's not just you.
    There's a lot of stuff there.

    > I would like to start my next web project (a database of demographic
    > info on scientists in Africa) on Zope 3. Could anybody point me in the
    > right direction? Where should I start?


    After you look through the tutorial (which is simply a Zope product you can
    add from the main page of the ZMI (Zope Management Interface), have a peek
    at the Zope book
    (http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/2_6Edition/view). Don't
    worry about the version (2.6) of the book. It's the latest they have (I
    think they're working on a new one for z3). You can skip the bits about
    DTML, but keep them handy.

    You should also take a look at the Zope user list:
    http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope

    Hope this all helps.
    --
    Steve Juranich
    Tucson, AZ
    USA
     
    Steve Juranich, Apr 25, 2006
    #4
  5. Benji York wrote:
    > bruno at modulix wrote:
    >
    >> Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
    >> learn (nor the most pythonic).

    >
    >
    > Those statements apply more to Zope 2 than Zope 3 (and Zope 2 is moving
    > more and more toward Zope 3 these days). One of Zope 3's main goals was
    > to focus on the Python programmer as a primary target. That being said
    > there /are/ some powerful and novel concepts used in Z3 (the component
    > framework).


    While it's true that Zope3 is more 'python-programmer oriented' than
    Zope2 - and probably much safer wrt/ developper's sanity -, it's still a
    world on it's own, it's still a complex framework, and it's still not
    very pythonic (IMHO based on 2+ years experience with Zope2, with or
    without the CMF, and some time spent evaluating Zope3).

    >> You may want to consider other options like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.

    >
    >
    > It's true that Z3 is not currently focused very well on the
    > "middle-class" developer.


    That's an understatement !-)

    > It's more of an industrial-strength kind of
    > thing, but considerable thought has been given lately on how to build
    > bridges so everyone can benefit without being full-time Zope masters.
    >
    > Toward that end, I wrote a little quick start guide that might help the
    > OP: http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start



    --
    bruno desthuilliers
    python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
    p in ''.split('@')])"
     
    bruno at modulix, Apr 25, 2006
    #5
  6. Steve Juranich wrote:
    > Derick van Niekerk wrote:

    (snip)
    >>I would like to start my next web project (a database of demographic
    >>info on scientists in Africa) on Zope 3. Could anybody point me in the
    >>right direction? Where should I start?

    >
    >
    > After you look through the tutorial (which is simply a Zope product you can
    > add from the main page of the ZMI (Zope Management Interface), have a peek
    > at the Zope book
    > (http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/2_6Edition/view).


    Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different beast.

    --
    bruno desthuilliers
    python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
    p in ''.split('@')])"
     
    bruno at modulix, Apr 25, 2006
    #6
  7. Derick van Niekerk

    Egon Frerich Guest

    What is pythonic? See:

    http://faassen.n--tree.net/blog/view/weblog/2005/08/06/0

    bruno at modulix schrieb am 25.04.2006 17:10:

    > Benji York wrote:
    >> bruno at modulix wrote:
    >>
    >>> Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
    >>> learn (nor the most pythonic).

    >>
    >> Those statements apply more to Zope 2 than Zope 3 (and Zope 2 is moving
    >> more and more toward Zope 3 these days). One of Zope 3's main goals was
    >> to focus on the Python programmer as a primary target. That being said
    >> there /are/ some powerful and novel concepts used in Z3 (the component
    >> framework).

    >
    > While it's true that Zope3 is more 'python-programmer oriented' than
    > Zope2 - and probably much safer wrt/ developper's sanity -, it's still a
    > world on it's own, it's still a complex framework, and it's still not
    > very pythonic (IMHO based on 2+ years experience with Zope2, with or
    > without the CMF, and some time spent evaluating Zope3).
    >
    >>> You may want to consider other options like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.

    >>
    >> It's true that Z3 is not currently focused very well on the
    >> "middle-class" developer.

    >
    > That's an understatement !-)
    >
    >> It's more of an industrial-strength kind of
    >> thing, but considerable thought has been given lately on how to build
    >> bridges so everyone can benefit without being full-time Zope masters.
    >>
    >> Toward that end, I wrote a little quick start guide that might help the
    >> OP: http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start

    >
    >


    --
    Egon Frerich, Freudenbergstr. 16, 28213 Bremen

    E-Mail:
     
    Egon Frerich, Apr 25, 2006
    #7
  8. bruno at modulix wrote:

    > Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different
    > beast.


    Okay, so my ignorance is showing (/me pauses to stuff it back where it
    belongs). So is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
    in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
    (which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't? I've looked at
    the documentation on the main Zope page (zope.org) and all of the documents
    I've seen are apparently geared towards Zope 2.X. Where are the Zope3
    docs?

    Thanks.

    --
    Steve Juranich
    Tucson, AZ
    USA
     
    Steve Juranich, Apr 25, 2006
    #8
  9. Derick van Niekerk

    Egon Frerich Guest

    Steve Juranich schrieb am 25.04.2006 18:24:

    > bruno at modulix wrote:
    >
    >> Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different
    >> beast.

    >
    > Okay, so my ignorance is showing (/me pauses to stuff it back where it
    > belongs). So is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
    > in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
    > (which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't? I've looked at
    > the documentation on the main Zope page (zope.org) and all of the documents
    > I've seen are apparently geared towards Zope 2.X. Where are the Zope3
    > docs?


    For example:
    http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/FrontPage/Zope3Book

    >
    > Thanks.
    >


    --
    Egon Frerich, Freudenbergstr. 16, 28213 Bremen

    E-Mail:
     
    Egon Frerich, Apr 25, 2006
    #9
  10. Derick van Niekerk

    Guest

    I have been using ZOPE (mostly with CMF/Plone) for a couple years now.
    MY recolleciton of the initial leraning curve, was hours reading
    through source code, newsgroups, web site, outdated garbage, days long
    marathons of coffee, beer and very little sleep.

    After about 2 weeks of this horrible mindnumbing headache - the eureka
    moment hit, and it has proven itself to be a fairly robust application
    server environment, and has really delivered for me in terms of being
    able to quickle create web apps.

    I would say though the question of Zope is not a question of
    implementation language - it is it's own thing. I think a lot of the
    talk of adding typing to python has emerged from the Zope camp. So the
    question you should ask yourself, not do I want to use python or php -
    it's more do I want to use Zope? Zope is pretty well supported and
    seems to have a good bit of momentum (compared to other python based
    app servers)

    My experince is that the learning curve is steep, and the path is
    heavily littered with debris. But, once the initial curve is passed -
    the results seems almost magical (at least compared to other app server
    environments I have worked with)
     
    , Apr 25, 2006
    #10
  11. Derick van Niekerk

    Rene Pijlman Guest

    Steve Juranich:
    >is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
    >in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
    >(which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't?


    It's a redesign.
    Z2: mixin base classes
    Z3: component architecture with interfaces

    >Where are the Zope3 docs?


    Google!

    --
    René Pijlman
     
    Rene Pijlman, Apr 25, 2006
    #11
  12. Steve Juranich a écrit :
    > bruno at modulix wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different
    >>beast.

    >
    >
    > Okay, so my ignorance is showing (/me pauses to stuff it back where it
    > belongs). So is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
    > in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
    > (which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't?


    This is not an incremental change, it's a complete redesign and rewrite
    and a different architecture. Almost nothing of what you learn with Zope
    2.x will hold with Zope3.

    > I've looked at
    > the documentation on the main Zope page (zope.org) and all of the documents
    > I've seen are apparently geared towards Zope 2.X. Where are the Zope3
    > docs?


    You can start here:
    http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/FrontPage

    HTH
     
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Apr 26, 2006
    #12
  13. This looks more or less like what I am looking for to learn Zope3! As
    is mentioned elsewhere in this thread Zope3 is *nothing* like Zope2 and
    after starting to learn the one, I knew nothing about the other.
    *Everything* is different - from the interface to the design
    methodologies.

    One thing Zope seems to keep pushing is extreme programming - until
    recently, I thought it is a joke, like extreme ironing, but it seems
    like a very popular style of programming. I am astounded by how much I
    need to learn to call myself a programmer!

    Anyway - If some of you can give me a little insight to what you use to
    develop on the web using Python, I'd appreciate it. I've heard good
    things about cherrypy, django, mod_python, zope, etc., etc. There is
    just so little time - I'd gladly sacrifice a little power / flexibility
    for an easier learning curve. This will be my first python web
    project...

    Thanks for the feedback - it helps a lot :)
    Derick
     
    Derick van Niekerk, Apr 26, 2006
    #13
  14. Derick van Niekerk wrote:

    > Anyway - If some of you can give me a little insight to what you use to
    > develop on the web using Python, I'd appreciate it. I've heard good
    > things about cherrypy, django, mod_python, zope, etc., etc. There is
    > just so little time - I'd gladly sacrifice a little power / flexibility
    > for an easier learning curve.


    working through the Django tutorial shouldn't take you more than
    an hour or two (*):

    http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/

    turbogears also have some good tutorials:

    http://www.turbogears.org/docs/index.html

    </F>

    *) depending on how much time you need to get things set up. if you
    just want to tinker, and are using windows, you can easily do it in 5-15
    minutes: http://effbot.org/zone/django.htm#installing
     
    Fredrik Lundh, Apr 26, 2006
    #14
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