Access or Visual Studio?

[Kevin Spencer]

VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each

application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
without any real expertise there.

A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigration" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigration" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the ASP.Net
newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We talk about
capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or "bad." Nobody
here has any axe to grind against Access, which, incidentally, I've been
using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool., As such, it has properties,
capabilities, and limitations, just as any other tool. Even Microsoft
doesn't recommend using Access for Internet applications, and if anyone ever
loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on databases
and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript, VBA, VB6,
VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written ASP
applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in both
native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML Web
Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and services,
and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere, but let's
hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[gerry]

excuse me ?
what exactly did I assume ?
what 'logic' are you referring to ?
who said I programmed at all ?

I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I have
to assume that you took some offence to my post.
you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
how does that definition not apply to what you said ?

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been watching
your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I see
from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.

self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because it
doesn't happen to coincide with your own.

HTH ? ya right

 

[Kevin Spencer]

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been

watching
your posts on these groups for long enough

Afraid not kid. You're not old enough to have seen all of my posts.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Paul Overway]

I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in VBA
is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers. Based on
your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone can see you're
a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't know it already.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."

As to my "implication," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know what
I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.

As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and have
no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
opinion speaks for itself.

Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.

--
Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[Paul Overway]

Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't denigrate
Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
manners....or maybe Haldol.

Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

 

[Guest]

I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing wrong
with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
those may not matter depending on your needs).

It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two equally
valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms re: deployments and
thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm or
another as "not being a serious development environment".

-idi_amin

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

Which "Access vs. VS.NET argument" ?

How can there BE an "Access vs. VS.NET argument" ?

 

[Brian]

Please don't feed the troll.

excuse me ?
what exactly did I assume ?
what 'logic' are you referring to ?
who said I programmed at all ?

I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I have
to assume that you took some offence to my post.
you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
how does that definition not apply to what you said ?

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been watching
your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I see
from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.

self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because it
doesn't happen to coincide with your own.

HTH ? ya right

 

[Brian]

Please don't feed the troll

Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't denigrate
Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
manners....or maybe Haldol.

users/developers.

 

[Terry Kreft]

Excellent, you can now be discounted as an expert on programming, well done!

 

[SusanV]

Agreed on all points, but this whole thread has begun to lose it's appeal as
the trolls attempt to close in for the non-existent kill...

Enjoyed it while it was civil though!

;-)

Susan

 

[Kevin Spencer]

This is my last contribution to this thread, as it was cross-posted to the
ASP.Net newsgroups, where I participate daily, and my replies are being
wildly misinterpreted by some people that reside in the Access newsgroups
(for those of you there, you have my sympathies).

I am addressing those who are reasonable in that group, in order to clear up
any confusion caused by my attackers:

1. I love Access. For the type of database that it is, it is the best in the
business. I have written many applications that use Access as a back-end.
2. VBA is a language for extending existing applications, not for writing
applications. This is not a qualitative statement. VBA is excellent for what
it was designed for.
3. The Jet engine is fast and efficient, and like Access, for the type of
database that it works with, it is the best in the business.

As for those who have been attacking me, again, I address those reasonable
ones in the Access group: You have my sympathies.

--
ta-ta,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
I suffer fools. Just not gladly.

 

[gerry]

kid ?

Afraid not kid. You're not old enough to have seen all of my posts.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

 

[gerry]

spot on

Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't denigrate
Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
manners....or maybe Haldol.

users/developers.

 

[Sean Hederman]

[Snip]

Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see what
happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.

You may be right, but it does look like MS is doing a good job of keeping
the frameworks versioning tight so far, so I'd say that this comment is a
bit premature.

Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe". A
freestanding binary program it is not.

Umm, the only "freestanding binary program" on your computer is your BIOS.
Everything else is just layers put on top of layers. Each layer adds
overhead, and each layer provides useful services and abstractions. At some
point we may reach a layer too far, but I don't think we're there yet.

In fact, it is so far from being a freestanding binary program that you
have to use an obfuscator to deter
people from nicking your code!

And a disassembler won't work against a "freestanding binary program"? .NET
does make it easier to disassemble a program, but that is because the CLR
needs to be able to easily verify that the code won't do anything nasty. We
have a tradeoff between byte code complexity, security, and performance.
Moving one of those components requires that at least one of the other two
shift in a detrimental manner. Given the problems facing us with security
and viruses, and given the speed of todays hardware, I'm quite happy to
sacrifice a bit of performance and obfuscation for increased security.

As to your assertion about people nicking your code, have you ever tried to
work out what's happenning in a large undocumented, uncommented piece of
source code? Not fun, and certainly not easy.

 

[Otis Mukinfus]

It probably won't surprise you to know that their are accomplished developers
like me who find the Access application development features difficult to use
and learn. Perhaps that's because I have done a couple of gigs where the users
in an organization had multiple home grown Access applications they wanted
converted to applications using MS SQL server. Not a pretty sight ;o)

I use Access all the time when I need a readily deployable database that doesn't
have multiple users, but I don't and won't make applications with it.

Agreed on all points, but this whole thread has begun to lose it's appeal as
the trolls attempt to close in for the non-existent kill...

Enjoyed it while it was civil though!

;-)

Susan

Otis Mukinfus
http://www.otismukinfus.com

 

[Dan Artuso]

Kevin,
We here in the Access newsgroups are a bit of a different breed.
We try to be polite and do not resort to name calling.

 

[Brian]

[Snip]

Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see what
happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.

You may be right, but it does look like MS is doing a good job of keeping
the frameworks versioning tight so far, so I'd say that this comment is a
bit premature.

As is yours, because it hasn't been through enough versions or major
upgrades yet to give real headaches. Microsoft's track record with other
products suggests that major upgrades always break something that used to
work. Of more concern, however, is the situation when the beast is, say,
5-10 years old and developers have to target an unpredictable heterogeneous
population of framework versions and need to make their app work with all of
them. It's a problem that Access developers struggle with (hence the OP's
comments), and I don't expect it to be any different with the dotnet
framework.

Umm, the only "freestanding binary program" on your computer is your BIOS.
Everything else is just layers put on top of layers. Each layer adds
overhead, and each layer provides useful services and abstractions. At some
point we may reach a layer too far, but I don't think we're there yet.

You attack a straw man. It was the OP who introduced the term
"freestanding" to describe a dotnet app, not me. I was merely pointing out
the error in his interpretation.

In any case, there are lots of genuine binary programs on my computer.
Freestanding they may not be in an absolute sense, but, being real binaries,
they are of a quite different nature to a dotnet app (or, indeed, an Access
app or a VB6 app).

And a disassembler won't work against a "freestanding binary program"? ..NET
does make it easier to disassemble a program, but that is because the CLR
needs to be able to easily verify that the code won't do anything nasty. We
have a tradeoff between byte code complexity, security, and performance.
Moving one of those components requires that at least one of the other two
shift in a detrimental manner. Given the problems facing us with security
and viruses, and given the speed of todays hardware, I'm quite happy to
sacrifice a bit of performance and obfuscation for increased security.

Again you attack a straw man. I was merely illustrating to the OP the
fallacy in his assumptions about dotnet.

As to your assertion about people nicking your code, have you ever tried to
work out what's happenning in a large undocumented, uncommented piece of
source code? Not fun, and certainly not easy.

I've done it lots. Quite enjoy it, actually.

 

[Brian]

Allow me to correct myself. The OP used the term "independent", not
"freestanding". The sense is the same, though.