CLPM - a help group?

S

sln

Whats the charter of this newsgroup?
Is it strictly Q&A?

All questions. Post code without a question reveals nothing.
I wouldn't call this an educational/professional group in that case.

Am I posting to the wrong group? Just what is this group for?

Not for programmers it seems.

Perhaps it should be renamed to

comp.lang.perl.questions.misc.beginner.programmer.edu

Because it makes sence.

Whats the answer, this is a question?

sln
 
B

brian d foy

Whats the charter of this newsgroup?
Is it strictly Q&A?

I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.

People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
that in usenet anymore.
Am I posting to the wrong group? Just what is this group for?

It depends on what you are trying to acheive. If you're looking to
learn perl, you probably want to move over to learn.perl.org and look
at its discussion lists.

If you want detailed discussions of the gory details of Perl, you might
try PerlMonks.

If you are interested in topical discussion of narrow topics, look at
the Perl mailing lists to see if one meets your needs:
http://lists.cpan.org/

If you're looking for something else, tell us what it is and somebody
might be able to point you in the right direction.

clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it. If that works
for you, great. If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it
into something else.

Good luck :)
 
A

Adam Worrall

According to the original charter, one may discuss anything Perl:

<ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/comp/comp.lang.perl.gz>
From (e-mail address removed) Thu May 23 13:40:31 1991
Path: rpi!think.com!compass!news
From: (e-mail address removed) (news)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.perl.ctl
Subject: newgroup comp.lang.perl
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 23 May 91 16:14:05 GMT
Control: newgroup comp.lang.perl
Distribution: world
Organization: Compass, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Lines: 1
Approved: (e-mail address removed)

Discussion of Larry Wall's Perl system.

And the .misc charter:

<ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/comp/comp.lang.perl.misc.gz>
From (e-mail address removed) Mon May 8 16:46:29 1995
Path: uunet!tale
From: (e-mail address removed) (David C Lawrence)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.perl.misc
Subject: newgroup comp.lang.perl.misc
Control: newgroup comp.lang.perl.misc
Approved: (e-mail address removed)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 20:43:32 GMT
Lines: 12
Xref: uunet control:1996186

comp.lang.perl.misc is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its
vote for creation by 328:48 as reported in news.announce.newgroups
on 1 May 1995.This group supersedes comp.lang.perl, which will be
removed on 8 Aug 1995.

For your newsgroups file:
comp.lang.perl.misc The Perl language in general.

The charter, culled from the call for votes:

Existing traffic in comp.lang.perl will migrate to
comp.lang.perl.misc, which will remain an unmoderated newsgroup for
discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl.

I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.

Please explain, who actually decides that it isn't a help? I never saw
Larry Wall state that in this group. It's not in the charter, which
actually says the opposite:

Existing traffic in comp.lang.perl will migrate to
comp.lang.perl.misc, which will remain an unmoderated newsgroup for
discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl.

"discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl", and help questions
fall into this category.
People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
that in usenet anymore.

Sigh... ain't that the truth.

It's for "discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl."
It depends on what you are trying to acheive.

No, the only requirement to post here is if it's a Perl related question.
If you're looking to learn perl, you probably want to move
over to learn.perl.org and look at its discussion lists.

If you want detailed discussions of the gory details of Perl, you might
try PerlMonks.

I would say use the lists or nntp.perl.org, this news group, and the
'Monks list.
clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it.

What I dislike it the arm-chair legislation that some people love to
impose; this notion that "this is not a help desk", for instance, is
bunk. It's not a _personal_ help desk, but in a sense, it is a public
volunteer based help desk, as people come and ask questions and often
someone answers them. I don't know how else you can describe a "help desk."
If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it into something else.

I think the ruling populous did that a long time ago.

- Adam
 
S

sln

I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.

People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
that in usenet anymore.


It depends on what you are trying to acheive. If you're looking to
learn perl, you probably want to move over to learn.perl.org and look
at its discussion lists.

If you want detailed discussions of the gory details of Perl, you might
try PerlMonks.

If you are interested in topical discussion of narrow topics, look at
the Perl mailing lists to see if one meets your needs:
http://lists.cpan.org/

If you're looking for something else, tell us what it is and somebody
might be able to point you in the right direction.

clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it. If that works
for you, great. If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it
into something else.

Good luck :)

Thank You!

This seems like the perfect place for me.
I will use this group as a repository to dump large scale code into.

How far back are the posts saved?

sln
 
T

Tad J McClellan

How far back are the posts saved?


Saved where, exactly?

There is no "central" server on Usenet.

Each Usenet servers retains articles for as long as their
individual news administrators have configured them to be kept.

You need to direct that question at whomever you are getting
your news feed from, as they are the only ones who know the answer.


See also:

"How the Usenet News Protocols Work"

http://people.dsv.su.se/~jpalme/e-mail-book/usenet-news.html
 
C

cartercc

People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
that in usenet anymore.

I've had the bad experience several times now of seeing news groups
trashed and driving people away. It seems like a good idea to have a
general discussion area for topics, but there seems to be a Gresham's
law for usenet -- over time the bad posters kill the group.

The reason I don't like blogs is because I haven't found a way to do a
centralized search. You can find a blog anywhere, or not. At least
with the usenet heirarchy you can pretty quickly narrow down your
interest group.

Maybe the success of usenet is killing it. With a small group of
people mostly knowledgable and mostly interested you find people like
Larry Wall, or Randel Schwartz, or brian d foy participating. With
greater numbers of people futzing the signal to noise ratio, it gets a
lot harder.
clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it. If that works
for you, great. If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it
into something else.

I have found c.l.p.m. a helpful resource, and I try to give something
back occasionally as payment for what I have received. There is
certainly a place for groups like this, and I'm wishing for a long and
successful run. Even if I have my doubts.

CC
 
B

brian d foy

I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.

Please explain, who actually decides that it isn't a help?[/QUOTE]

I think you mean "isn't a help desk". A help desk is a formally
established service where customers walk up and someone helps them.

No one here is obligated to do anything, and there aren't office hours,
shifts, or responsilibities. That people do answer questions here
doesn't mean it's purpose is to answer questions.

Help desks aren't lunch rooms, football fields, or street corners. This
newsgroup, however, can be whatever it decides to be, and even that can
change.
 
J

Justin C

This seems like the perfect place for me.
I will use this group as a repository to dump large scale code into.

How far back are the posts saved?

I think your first step would be to go and find out what usenet is, it
doesn't seem that you are quite sure. Until you know, I don't know how
you can be sure that this newsgroup is the place to 'dump large scale
code'.

Justin.
 
J

John Bokma

M

Michael Carman

Adam said:
Yes I meant 'help desk', but you are wrong in assuming that a 'help
desk' always has to be a formal service for customers. There are, in
fact, many volunteer-run help desk, and this newsgroup, like many
others, functions as exactly that. People volunteer their time to _help_
others.

I believe that the aversion to calling c.l.p.misc a "help desk" is
because that term carries a connotation that the purpose of the group is
to provide a service where someone will solve your problem for you. The
regular contributors to this group are, on the whole, very resistant to
that idea. "RTFM. What have you tried? Show us your code."

nobull phrased it very well:

"Get real! This is a discussion group, not a helpdesk. You post
something, we discuss its implications. If the discussion happens
to answer a question you've asked, that's incidental."

The purpose of the group is to discuss Perl: it's strengths, weaknesses,
idioms, quirks, dusty corners, etc. The asking and answering of
questions are merely a mechanism by which discussion topics are identified.

-mjc
 
A

Adam Worrall

Michael said:
I believe that the aversion to calling c.l.p.misc a "help desk" is
because that term carries a connotation that the purpose of the group is
to provide a service where someone will solve your problem for you. The
regular contributors to this group are, on the whole, very resistant to
that idea. "RTFM. What have you tried? Show us your code."

nobull phrased it very well:

"Get real! This is a discussion group, not a helpdesk. You post
something, we discuss its implications. If the discussion happens
to answer a question you've asked, that's incidental."

The purpose of the group is to discuss Perl: it's strengths, weaknesses,
idioms, quirks, dusty corners, etc. The asking and answering of
questions are merely a mechanism by which discussion topics are identified.

I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
everyone in a news group? AKAIK, no one simple person can claim
ownership of a news group, so telling someone something along the lines
of "this is not a help desk" is legislating your own beliefs, which is
contrary to what Usenet is and how it works (at least in terms of open
non-moderated groups.)

- Adam
 
R

RedGrittyBrick

Adam said:
I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
everyone in a news group? AKAIK, no one simple person can claim
ownership of a news group, so telling someone something along the lines
of "this is not a help desk" is legislating your own beliefs, which is
contrary to what Usenet is and how it works (at least in terms of open
non-moderated groups.)

If I said "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a place for discussing pet
allergies" would I be legislating my own belief?

If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
merely stating my opinion on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
the main participants as to how they choose to participate and comparing
that consensus with a scenario in which people are employed (paid) to
answer customer enquiries.

When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not legislating
what the sky may or may not do.

Your Mileage May Vary.
 
B

brian d foy

Adam Worrall said:
I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
everyone in a news group?

The charter decides that. Beyond that, there is no clpm police that
gets to decide. So, post whatever Perl stuff you like.

This still isn't a help desk, but I'm usually happy to help people when
I can. :)
 
A

Adam Worrall

RedGrittyBrick said:
If I said "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a place for discussing pet
allergies" would I be legislating my own belief?

No you would obviously be wrong, as the charter clearly states that this
group is for all things Perl and discussions of "pet allergies" is
clearly off topic. But that is no where near the same as saying "this is
not a help desk" which is a personal view that is not something the
charter (for this or it's predecessor group) had written.
If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
merely stating my opinion on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
the main participants as to how they choose to participate and comparing
that consensus with a scenario in which people are employed (paid) to
answer customer enquiries.

You're assuming the consensus (as in everyone's opinion) is in agreeance
to what you are saying, and that is something you cannot really confirm.
further more, stop perpetuating the the false view that all help desks
are for paid organizations, as plenty are volunteer-run and many are
non-profit.
When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not legislating
what the sky may or may not do.

But it is a known fact that the sky is blue, which is different than a
handful of people telling you that a group shouldn't be used in a why
_they_ don't happen to approve of.


- Adam
 
A

Adam Worrall

brian said:
The charter decides that. Beyond that, there is no clpm police that
gets to decide. So, post whatever Perl stuff you like.

This still isn't a help desk, but I'm usually happy to help people when
I can. :)

No disrespect intended, but I don't think you've ever spent any time on
a volunteer-run help desk before. Oh wait, you post in clpm :)

- Adam
 
T

Tad J McClellan

Adam Worrall said:
RedGrittyBrick wrote:


Just as Adam is free to state his opinion that it _is_ a help desk.

You're assuming the consensus (as in everyone's opinion) is in agreeance
to what you are saying, and that is something you cannot really confirm.


And neither can you confirm that it is not the consensus.

So where does that leave us?

further more, stop perpetuating the the false view that all help desks
are for paid organizations, as plenty are volunteer-run and many are
non-profit.


It is not the pay vs. no pay.

It is the "obligation to help" that most people associate with
a "help desk". I would expect that even volunteers at a help desk
are obligated to deliver help.

There is no obligation to help in clpmisc, which is why people
say that it is not a help desk.

But it is a known fact that the sky is blue, which is different than a
handful of people telling you that a group shouldn't be used in a why
_they_ don't happen to approve of.


A person can say that this is a help desk.

A person can say that this is not a help desk.

Each of those people has equal righteousness. (hint, hint)



(
And I think you do all Perlers a disservice to insist on calling
this group a "help desk".

If they begin to actually treat it like a help desk, where they
expect the fully-formed solution to their problem, then they will
likely get _less_ help (due to being auto-scored into invisibility).

Helping folks to get less help is not being helpful.
)
 
R

RedGrittyBrick

Adam said:
But it is a known fact that the sky is blue,

Today it is grey.
which is different than a
handful of people telling you that a group shouldn't be used in a why
_they_ don't happen to approve of.

You miss my point. I can observe that CLPM does not behave like a help
desk. That does not mean I am "legislating" what CLPM participants may
do. Whether my observation is right or wrong has no bearing on this.

~~~

Tad probably has it right, some posters presume that readers are under
some obligation to answer their questions by supplying ready-made solutions.

You often see "if you can't answer my question just shut up" from
posters new to a newsgroup when faced with a pointer to a FAQ or a
criticism of their posting style.

Any social group develops customs. It is useful for newcomers to know
what those are, before they decide whether they want to try and change
them. I suspect many such customs persist because they help make CLPM a
useful place.

Many of those who say something like "usenet isn't a help-desk" I
recognise as long standing participants who have contributed positively
to this newsgroup over many years and from whom I have learned much
about Perl. Those who say something like "usenet is a help desk" seem
not to be such people.
 
B

brian d foy

This still isn't a help desk, but I'm usually happy to help people when
I can. :)

No disrespect intended, but I don't think you've ever spent any time on
a volunteer-run help desk before. Oh wait, you post in clpm :)[/QUOTE]

I've sat on volunteer help desks and paid help desks. You might say
that you mean no disrespect, but **** you. You said it, you mean it,
and you're too much of a pussy to stand by what you typed and posted.
Take your smiley and shove it up you ass.

But no matter. You're just another shithead who won't be around in a
year when I'm still answering questions and helping people.
 
A

Adam Worrall

Tad said:
Just as Adam is free to state his opinion that it _is_ a help desk.
Ok.




And neither can you confirm that it is not the consensus.

So where does that leave us?

I leaves us with a charter that doesn't say it is or isn't a "help
desk", and anyone attempting to make authoritative claims it no better
than a DNS server giving responses for a domain it is not responsible for.
It is not the pay vs. no pay.

Actually it is, in terms of types of help desks out there.
It is the "obligation to help" that most people associate with
a "help desk". I would expect that even volunteers at a help desk
are obligated to deliver help.

How can a _volunteer_ service be _obligated_ to do anything? They are
volunteers...
There is no obligation to help in clpmisc, which is why people
say that it is not a help desk.

Which is wrong, because clpmisc functions as a volunteer help service.

- Adam
 

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