H
Hywel Jenkins
<snipped rant about other people's coding standards />
Should you care? Save yourself the stress and don't.
<snipped rant about other people's coding standards />
Should you care? Save yourself the stress and don't.
S
Stan McCann
At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
process of a total redesign of our website. As the webmaster and
teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
website reflect the web development approach that we teach.
Personnally, I teach strict HTML 4.01 and feel strongly that no new
pages should be created using transitional as the time of transition is
long past. I have been reviewing college sites all over the country,
especially colleges like NMSUA that offer degrees in web development
hoping to find sites that would support my arguments in keeping with
the coding styles so often seen discussed on this group.
So what do I find? Transitional or Loose DTDs if any and table layout
everywhere! The coding used by so many of these colleges that say they
teach web development is truly disgusting IMO. Front Page and Word
documents saved as HTML, pop ups, music, and so many other things that
I have seen discussion after discussion opposing the use of seems to be
the norm. No wonder it is so difficult to find a site that validates,
doesn't use table layout, etc.
So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
sites using 10 year old methods?
I could go on as this has turned into a rant. I just am starting to
wonder: what's the point? OK, end rant.
process of a total redesign of our website. As the webmaster and
teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
website reflect the web development approach that we teach.
Personnally, I teach strict HTML 4.01 and feel strongly that no new
pages should be created using transitional as the time of transition is
long past. I have been reviewing college sites all over the country,
especially colleges like NMSUA that offer degrees in web development
hoping to find sites that would support my arguments in keeping with
the coding styles so often seen discussed on this group.
So what do I find? Transitional or Loose DTDs if any and table layout
everywhere! The coding used by so many of these colleges that say they
teach web development is truly disgusting IMO. Front Page and Word
documents saved as HTML, pop ups, music, and so many other things that
I have seen discussion after discussion opposing the use of seems to be
the norm. No wonder it is so difficult to find a site that validates,
doesn't use table layout, etc.
So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
sites using 10 year old methods?
I could go on as this has turned into a rant. I just am starting to
wonder: what's the point? OK, end rant.
L
Leonard Blaisdell
Stan McCann said:
It seems to me that web mastery would maybe be worth an AS but surely
not a BS. I'm sure there's more to the degree than that. Especially at
Alamogordo ;-)
You betcha. A vast minority. But you knew that.
I'm not. I take satisfaction from creating conforming sites.
I certainly won't abandon what I know to conform to the norm.
leo
A
Andy Dingley
Well it's no _worse_ than using 1x1.gif
Just don't expect clients, or even "technical managers" to appreciate
the distinction. You certainly won't get paid any more than a clueless
muppet with a copy of Frontpage.
S
Stan McCann
NMSUA is a branch of NMSU and a community college. The web mastery
degree is an AS as we cannot offer a four year degree.
Yeah, more venting than anything else.
I won't either. I just get frustrated that what I know to be correct
is so difficult to find out there. There are literally millions of
pages of horrid markup and practically none that can pass validation to
strict. With all of these schools putting out such garbage, it makes
it difficult to justify time and effort to my superiors in my job as
webmaster and it makes it difficult to justify to my students in my
classes. After all, what they see looks good even though it is nothing
more than tag soup.
J
jlbdoc95
Goes to show why people with those degrees are still not taken all that
seriously, when I hire someone who claims to have a web development degree,
I always take that with a grain of salt, more often than none you find that
the teachings are just that, FrontPage background with no regard for
Standards.
Kudos Stan for putting your students on the right path!!
Jean
seriously, when I hire someone who claims to have a web development degree,
I always take that with a grain of salt, more often than none you find that
the teachings are just that, FrontPage background with no regard for
Standards.
Kudos Stan for putting your students on the right path!!
Jean
C
cosmic foo
frontpage rules!jlbdoc95 said:
N
Neredbojias
With neither quill nor qualm, Stan McCann quothed:
New Mexico has computers? Wow.
No, I agree with everything you say except the bias against tables.
There are just some things divs and css can't do; it may in part be due
to lackluster implementation, but css isn't perfect, either. I have a
few transitional pages on my site simply because it is much easier (and
more reliable) to vertically-center small content.
New Mexico has computers? Wow.
No, I agree with everything you say except the bias against tables.
There are just some things divs and css can't do; it may in part be due
to lackluster implementation, but css isn't perfect, either. I have a
few transitional pages on my site simply because it is much easier (and
more reliable) to vertically-center small content.
P
Philip Ronan
cosmic foo said:
<P CLASS="MsoNormal" ALIGN="left" STYLE="margin-top: 5; margin-bottom:
-7"><B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000"><I><SPAN STYLE="mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt"><FONT FACE="Verdana">No it doesn't.</FONT></SPAN></I></B></P>
J
JDS
Probably not in the minority -- I think the term is irrelevant in this
case. My finding is that web design tasks are so often given to people
with no skills other than FrontPage that the person creating the page was
not even aware that the concepts you espouse even exist!
One cannot know that one is breaking a "rule"[1] if one does not even know
that there is a rule at all.
I don't think you are beating your head against the wall on this. I just
think that people who don't know what the **** they are talking about too
often implement policies or create things that do not follow rules or
codes that make sense to people who do know what the **** they are talking
about.
So keep at it, someone is bound to listen eventually. I mean, why pay
someone to do a task, be an "expert" at something, if you aren't going to
listen to their "expert" recommendations.
Ugh. Maybe you are beating your head against the wall. Keep at it
anyways, though.
later...
[1] "rule" in quotes, because even the W3C "rules" are just
"recommendations".
J
JDS
hah! you crakka me up
A
Animesh Kumar
cosmic said:
Yeah it rules garble-heads.
B
Blinky the Shark
Animesh said:
Well, something has to.
A
Animesh Kumar
Blinky said:Animesh Kumar wrote:
Well, something has to.
I wish they moved from Frontpage to "My-Crow-Soft Word to HTML" export
filters --- if creating lots of trash with ease is what they
(garble-heads) care about
N
Neredbojias
With neither quill nor qualm, JDS quothed:
My mother dropped me on my head when I was a kid and then threatened to
rename me "rf" when I wouldn't stop crying. I believe that's when my
sanity surrendered to the exigencies of the real world.
My mother dropped me on my head when I was a kid and then threatened to
rename me "rf" when I wouldn't stop crying. I believe that's when my
sanity surrendered to the exigencies of the real world.
R
rf
Neredbojias said:
Watch it kiddo!
Cheers
Richard.
N
Neredbojias
With neither quill nor qualm said:
Now you have to admit you're a bit of a crab. I'm pulling Dorayme's
chain and you come on with your "outraged human being" shtick. Back
when I was a kid, teachers like you got the well-deserved "tack on the
chair" treatment.
R
rf
Neredbojias said:
Sorry, forgot to add the emoticon. Corrected.
Cheers
Richard.
N
Neredbojias
With neither quill nor qualm said:
S'right, I'm usually thick-skinned (-although fore it's a bit
sensitive.) Just leave the demoticon in the drawer.