emacs Vs Eclipse?


S

slowCoder

Hello everyone,
Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
emacs over eclipse?

I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
is a research project).

Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).

Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
still sticking with emacs ?

An Eclipse Convert.
 
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V

Virgil Green

slowCoder said:
Hello everyone,
Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
emacs over eclipse?

I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
is a research project).

Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).

Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
still sticking with emacs ?

An Eclipse Convert.

I would expect to find little substantive discussion about the merits of one
over the other. One or the other is going to fit your coding style and
organizational requirements better than the other. I say, pick the one you
like best and go forward. I just don't see much point in such a discussion.

- Virgil
 
K

Klaus Berndl

Hello everyone,
Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
emacs over eclipse?

I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
is a research project).

Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).

Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
still sticking with emacs ?

Have you ever tried Emacs with the ECB (Emacs Code browser)? See
http://ecb.sf.net Well, i admit, the underlying parsing-engine of CEDET
(http://cedet.sf.net) need some additional work to fulfill all needs but for
many cases it works already now like a charm.

ECB itself needs also some further enhancements especially for browsing big
class-hierarchies but in general ECB offers you already a lot what you need to
navigate fast and efficient through source-code and understand it.

Klaus
An Eclipse Convert.

--
Klaus Berndl mailto: (e-mail address removed)
sd&m AG http://www.sdm.de
software design & management
Carl-Wery-Str. 42, 81739 Muenchen, Germany
Tel +49 89 63812-392, Fax -220
 
W

Will Hartung

slowCoder said:
Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).

Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
still sticking with emacs ?

Because it works the way I want it to work, and it's worked that way for the
past 10 years.

I don't use the Java IDE for emacs at all. I use syntax coloring,
auto-indent, and auto reformat. It lets me easily type my code, and not
kibitz it with every single key stroke. It lets me run ant and find my
errors quickly, it lets my mouse stay in the drawer where it belongs. I have
no problem navigating large source trees with it. It keeps the project
management out of the editor, where it belongs IMHO, letting the project
management be whatever it want's to be.

Here, we've basically standardized on Ant, and let anyone choose whichever
editor et al they wish. We have Visual Studio folks, NetBeans, Eclipse,
IDEA, old JRun Studio, and jEdit folks here, as well as me, the lone emacs
guy. I think I'm the only one who has bothered to jump through the non-hoops
to get something as simple as being able to jump to syntax errors spit out
from Ant (ant -emacs -find). I don't know what the others do, but they all
run ant from a second window.

If I want to crawl through source code, emacs can do it, or I can use the
shell. If I want wizards, I've got those in the awk scripts I've developed
over time.

I have enough of an investment in emacs that it is painful and expensive for
me to switch to something else, yet it is adaptable enough to let me work
productively in all sorts of environments, with all sorts of languages. It
also makes for a comfortable marriage withouth having to look to jump
bandwagons every 6 months as the Next NEW! IMPROVED!! Best things comes
along.

About the only thing it lacks is refactoring, but that doesn't slow me down
that much I don't think, and, heck, the jdee may even have it. I'm not
really missing it.

I'm glad that Eclipse works for you, but I've tried it, and for me, emacs is
a better fit. YMMV.
An Eclipse Convert.

An Emacs Grognard.

Regards,

Will Hartung
([email protected])
 
W

William Xuuu

Hello everyone,
Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
emacs over eclipse?

I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
is a research project).

Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).

Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
still sticking with emacs ?

An Eclipse Convert.

Some people said that eclipse is so nice that it's going to replace
Emacs. Out of curiosity and suspect, I've tried eclipse for a while. Well,
it really drove me crazy, who has been used to Emacs. There are so many
menus, options, windows... ooh, look, How much spaces are there left for
the main edit space ? Emacs is nearly an OS, eclipse is far from it. Emacs
has elisp. Ecplise can't even run on console, can it?...... Ecplise may has
some advantages, but i would still stick with Emacs.
 
J

Jacob

slowCoder said:
Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
emacs over eclipse?

I have used Eclipse and IntelliJ/IDEA but stick to Emacs.

While the two has some nice features, especially on
refactoring, Emacs is way ahead when it comes to pure
editing control, which is what I do 95% of the time
anyway.
 
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V

Ville Vainio

sloowcoderr> I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also
sloowcoderr> tried eclipse) are still sticking with emacs ?

Eclipse CDT editor doesn't support the Whitesmith indentation style
(which is practically mandatory for Symbian C++ development) yet. I
guess that's about it for me. Customizing the emacs indentation style
is somewhat easy, while I have absolutely no idea how to do that in
eclipse, if possible at all. Running an indentation tool
after-the-fact doesn't feel appealing.

Also, the Python plugin, pydev, isn't perfectly stable quite yet. It's
pretty good already, though, and I've been trying to have the
discipline to launch it instead of emacs to edit my python scripts.

If you are programming in Java, Eclipse is a no-brainer. For some, it
might be a reason to *choose* Java in the first place.
 
V

Ville Vainio

William> menus, options, windows... ooh, look, How much spaces are
William> there left for the main edit space ? Emacs is nearly an
William> OS, eclipse is far from it. Emacs

ctrl+m helps there (maximizes the edit window). Eclipse actually feels
much less cluttered than the other IDEs I've tried.

William> has elisp. Ecplise can't even run on console, can
William> it?...... Ecplise may has

Running in a console is not a priority for me anymore - actually, I
tend to launch "jed" every time I want to edit something quickly in a
console.

I'm a long time emacs user. The following article was an eye-opener,
of a sort, for me:

http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca/opinions/editors.html
 
M

Michael Borgwardt

Ville said:
Eclipse CDT editor doesn't support the Whitesmith indentation style
(which is practically mandatory for Symbian C++ development) yet. I

Of course it does.
guess that's about it for me. Customizing the emacs indentation style
is somewhat easy, while I have absolutely no idea how to do that in
eclipse, if possible at all.

Then you haven't bothered to try and find out because that's a matter
of opening the help window and typing in "indentation".

And to think that it's usually emacs that's being touted as the ultimate
tool which you just have to invest a bit of time to learn... Apparently
that investment is so big and difficult to acquire that its users become
scared of even the tiniest little effort that might lead them away from it :)
 
V

Ville Vainio

Michael> Of course it does.

Great. How can I enable it? Note that I'm talking about CDT, not JDT.


Michael> Then you haven't bothered to try and find out because
Michael> that's a matter of opening the help window and typing in
Michael> "indentation".

Tried that, didn't help. I'm running the most recent eclipse. Java
plugin has some "Code formatter" options, CDT plugin doesn't.

Michael> of time to learn... Apparently that investment is so big
Michael> and difficult to acquire that its users become scared of
Michael> even the tiniest little effort that might lead them away
Michael> from it :)

Any pointers where that "tiny" effort should be directed is
appreciated.
 
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M

Michael Borgwardt

Ville said:
Michael> Of course it does.

Great. How can I enable it? Note that I'm talking about CDT, not JDT.

*groan*

Forget what I said. I read this in a Java newsgroup and wasn't aware what
CDT is...
 
S

Sudsy

Michael Borgwardt wrote:
And to think that it's usually emacs that's being touted as the ultimate
tool which you just have to invest a bit of time to learn... Apparently
that investment is so big and difficult to acquire that its users become
scared of even the tiniest little effort that might lead them away from
it :)

Some very interesting opinions expressed on this thread. While I've
never embraced emacs, the most productive developer I've ever met
was a genius and had an emacs development environment second-to-none.
Nobody else could use his system, what with the custom key bindings
and all, but you couldn't fault his approach.
Eclipse isn't perfect (yet!) but XDoclet inclusion makes it a very
attractive alternative to vi (my stalwart ally).
Firing up the IDE is overkill in those situations where you just want
to make minor changes but the build tools make it worthwhile (IMHO)
when you need to create ears or wars for deployment.
As always, YMMV.
 
G

Galen Boyer

Firing up the IDE is overkill in those situations where you
just want to make minor changes

As a fairly long time Emacs user, I don't "fire it up" to do
anything. I just always have it open and do everything in it,
and I mean everything. Thats the appeal but probably why its
also hated by those that don't like it. I guess, everytime
someone asks a "which editor/environment" question Emacs users
always chime in and answer, Emacs. Almost everything can be done
in Emacs, and this can probably get annoying to the guy that
already loves his editor, especially when the convo degrades into
tit-for-tat editor capabilities.

I do know this, I have eclipse available as well and I "fire it
up" when I need to debug the j2ee app I'm involved in building,
cause Emac's GUI debugger for java is flaky. When I use it, it's
certainly easy for this eclipse newbie to find one's way around
eclipse, which isn't something that Emacs can claim, for newbies
anyways.

But, as Paul Kunnican, the author of the JDE has stated, if you
are already "in the church", the JDE gives the Emacs user another
reason not to leave Emacs. So, if you like Emacs and you are
coding java, make sure you check out,

http://jdee.sunsite.dk/
 
O

Oliver Scholz

[...]
I'm a long time emacs user. The following article was an eye-opener,
of a sort, for me:

http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca/opinions/editors.html
[...]

Could you expand on why you found that article convincing? To be
honest, it seems a bit schizophrenic to me. I can make sense of it, if
I read it as a statement of personal, idiosyncratic preferences.
That's o.k., I have my own, different idiosyncracies. But I don't
understand how that could convince anybody else.

I mean: o.k. there is that part about the author's quirks with RMS and
the FSF. Fine for him. Others might agree. I don't care. I am happy
with both RMS and the FSF. At any rate I fail to see the technical
point here.

O.k. there is that part about Python being nicer than Lisp. This comes
a bit as a surprise to me, since the author first states: "In fact,
this Lisp was more than once the language in which I chose to express,
extensively, the algorithmic solution of some problems which were
somehow related to editing tasks." Then he goes on to complain about
the fact that Emacs Lisp does not lend itself very well for tasks not
immediately related to Emacs-the-editor. I can agree with that so
far. Later on he ditches Lisp in favour of Python and complains about
how bad Emacs supports Python. Again, fine for him if he prefers
Python. I don't. IMO, this boils down to the ancient
what-is-the-best-language-of-the-world issue. Surely interesting, but
IMO hardly a very convincing argument against Emacs.

Except, one would reason from this that Emacs should support multiple
extension languages like Vim supposedly does. The author himself can
hardly argue for this, because he complains about the already existing
complexity of Emacs. Now Emacs Lisp is not just an extension language,
it is a language in which the program itself is implemented[1].
Supporting multiple extension languages equally in this way would
*boost* Emacs' complexity, assuming that it is feasible at all.

Maybe I can make sense of the argument, if it is meant to convince that
Vim's design is better: being restrictive in the jobs it attempts to
do and leave everything else to other programs. Maybe I can force
myself to gain some understanding how that could convince somebody to
switch to Vim. But to Eclipse? Honestly!

Speaking of it, there is his introductory point about Emacs'
complexity which has become too much for him, as he states. (The text
is btw. quite of date in a few points, but anyways ...) He does not provide
many technically relevant examples. I agree that the display engine is
arcane stuff. Personally, I have completely failed to understand it.
Maybe Mule is also difficult, I don't know. However, for both there
does not seem to be a lack of people who are able to deal with it. (I
was not there, but I could imagine that implementing UTF-8 as new
internal format has been the source for a lot of headaches. But hey!
we are talking about reaping out the internal representation of text
in a large program that is focused on text and replacing it with
something entirely different. Name one similar programming project
where something like that has been easy!)

Well, of course, if you want to grok *all of Emacs*, then you are in
serious trouble. I just don't see why anybody would want that. I
dare to say that there is not a single person in the world which
understands and has an overview over *all* of Emacs. The charm is
that this is not necessary. It is one of the strength of its design,
that Emacs may grow rather organically.


Oliver

Footnotes:
[1] That Elisp is both, is a critical part of Emacs' design.
This---together with the interactive nature of the language---is what
makes the difference between an Emacs in the generic sense and an
Emacs-like editor.
 
W

Will Hartung

Oliver Scholz said:
[...]
I'm a long time emacs user. The following article was an eye-opener,
of a sort, for me:

http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca/opinions/editors.html
[...]

Could you expand on why you found that article convincing? To be
honest, it seems a bit schizophrenic to me. I can make sense of it, if
I read it as a statement of personal, idiosyncratic preferences.
That's o.k., I have my own, different idiosyncracies. But I don't
understand how that could convince anybody else.

It didn't make any sense to me, as I don't see why one has to understand the
core deep implementation details of a tool to actually use it.

Take, for example, the Emacs JDE. The author of the JDE may need to
understand the intricacies of Emacs, but I sure don't.

I've been using emacs forever, and I simply don't use a VAST majority of its
capability. I don't use shell buffers, for example. I don't use GNUS, etc.

My .emacs file has TWO LINES that I put there on my own volition (one sets
the tab size to 4, the other disables ^X^C). It has a few more that the JDE
wanted when I installed it (even though I don't use it myself anymore).

I'm sure that the author of this article, as a maintainer of emacs, had a
much different view of the system than I do. He was involved in the politics
of emacs, I'm just an unbiased happy user.

So, as a testament that you can pretty much use emacs out of the box with
little fidgeting about, *wave* that's me.

Oh, and my emacs binary was compiled in 1999...I've never bothered to update
it.

Regards,

Will Hartung
([email protected])
 
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A

Ann

slowCoder said:
Hello everyone,
Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
emacs over eclipse?

I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
is a research project).

Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).

Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
still sticking with emacs ?

An Eclipse Convert.

I used emacs in the early 1980's for a couple of years
untill my left pinky fell off from having to press the <ctrl>
key all the time.
 
P

Per Abrahamsen

Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

You are aware that there exist text formats other than C, Java and
LaTeX, and platforms other than Linux and MS-Windows?

I like to use the same text editor for all kinds of text, including
mail and news messages, and on all platforms. And I want it to have
enough knowledge of all the different text formats to allow me to
concentrate on the content, rather than syntactical or editor specific
issues.
 
V

Ville Vainio

Oliver> [...]

Oliver> Could you expand on why you found that article convincing?

It provided a more "inside" perpective to the emacs development, and
suggests that the development won't be accelerating any time soon. For
me, an important part of the appeal of emacs has been the
"future-proof" quality, but if the development is stagnating, well, it
just doesn't feel that future-proof anymore.

Oliver> That's o.k., I have my own, different idiosyncracies. But
Oliver> I don't understand how that could convince anybody else.

It depends on one's idiosyncracies, I guess. I don't think the article
is aimed at "convincing" anyone - what would be the point, anyway? One
might hope that the critique of emacs (or the state of it) might lead
to some discussions in the emacs developer community, perhaps even a
"renaissance" of some sort, reunification of emacs and xemacs, and
world peace (that'll be the day).

Oliver> far. Later on he ditches Lisp in favour of Python and
Oliver> complains about how bad Emacs supports Python. Again,
Oliver> fine for him if he prefers Python. I don't. IMO, this
Oliver> boils down to the ancient
Oliver> what-is-the-best-language-of-the-world issue. Surely
Oliver> interesting, but IMO hardly a very convincing argument
Oliver> against Emacs.

I also prefer Python, by far. If emacs was in Python, it would have
*much* more contributors and extensions. Lisp is an integral part of
the emacs community, and that's probably not going to change, so I,
like the author of the article, did some soul-searching and wondered
whether emacs is where I want to be in the future. I'm going to keep
on using it until Eclipse matures up a bit more, which might take a
few years, but I'm trying to refrain from getting too involved with
configuration and implementation of extensions.

I don't particularly like Java, or consider it a better editor
extension language than elisp, but with Eclipse I think the *need* to
hack the editor is lower.
 
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P

Per Abrahamsen

Darryl L. Pierce said:
Perhaps there are, but if the person to which you're replying doesn't use
them then their existence is meaningless to him.

Given that he posted a news message, he uses at least one other text
format. But my point wasn't that he should have chosen differently,
my question was mostly meant as an implicit reply to his question:

Even if his experience is restricted to three text formats on two
platforms, that is not a universal condition. So a solution that fits
his needs may not fit everybody else.
 

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