Javascript and Microsoft Windows

P

Peter Olcott

Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?
 
D

Dr John Stockton

JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
10:37:22 remote, seen in Peter Olcott
Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?

No.

Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.

Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
by other parts of the system.
 
P

Peter Olcott

Dr John Stockton said:
JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
10:37:22 remote, seen in Peter Olcott


No.

Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.

Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
by other parts of the system.
From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this
correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would be
internally represented as an MS Windows Button?
 
R

RobG

Peter said:
From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this

The difference between the core ECMAScript (JavaScript) language, its
built-in objects and those provided by a host environment are explained
here:

correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would be
internally represented as an MS Windows Button?

"Internally"? The ECMAScript specification does not detail how things
should be implemented, it just descibes the language itself.

"[ECMAScript] is a programming language that is used to manipulate,
customise, and automate the facilities of an existing system."

ECMAScript Language Specification section 4.

The host environment provides objects that have properties and methods,
JavaScript can be used to manipulate those objects to the extent
allowed by the host.

Most browsers provide a scriptable document object model (DOM) that
allows a script to create DOM objects (buttons, text inputs,
paragraphs, etc.) that can be manipulated using standard W3C properties
and methods as well as proprietary ones provided by the particular
browser.

The "button" that a host environment makes available in a DOM may be
different to the one that it provides to it's own development
environment. If I am running Firefox on Windows and use JavaScript to
create a button in a page, in what sense is that a "Windows button"?
If I use OmniWeb on Mac OS X and run the same script, will I get a "Mac
OS X button"?

Why does it matter? JavaScript use is not limited to browsers, nor
must it be used with a UI. All it needs is a scriptable host
environment.
 
G

Gernot Frisch

Peter Olcott said:
Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft
Windows controls, or does it build them from scratch like Java?


It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32
window with button class on the page, others just place an image that
"looks" like the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with
text as a button.
You should not care, since in JS you can't access more than just "a
button" - no matter what the browser made of it.
 
P

Peter Olcott

RobG said:
Peter said:
From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this

The difference between the core ECMAScript (JavaScript) language, its
built-in objects and those provided by a host environment are explained
here:

correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would
be
internally represented as an MS Windows Button?

"Internally"? The ECMAScript specification does not detail how things
should be implemented, it just descibes the language itself.

"[ECMAScript] is a programming language that is used to manipulate,
customise, and automate the facilities of an existing system."

ECMAScript Language Specification section 4.

The host environment provides objects that have properties and methods,
JavaScript can be used to manipulate those objects to the extent
allowed by the host.

Most browsers provide a scriptable document object model (DOM) that
allows a script to create DOM objects (buttons, text inputs,
paragraphs, etc.) that can be manipulated using standard W3C properties
and methods as well as proprietary ones provided by the particular
browser.

The "button" that a host environment makes available in a DOM may be
different to the one that it provides to it's own development
environment. If I am running Firefox on Windows and use JavaScript to
create a button in a page, in what sense is that a "Windows button"?
If I use OmniWeb on Mac OS X and run the same script, will I get a "Mac
OS X button"?

Why does it matter? JavaScript use is not limited to browsers, nor
must it be used with a UI. All it needs is a scriptable host
environment.

It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways that a
competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention without
violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
example of this.
 
P

Peter Olcott

Gernot Frisch said:
It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32 window
with button class on the page, others just place an image that "looks" like
the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with text as a button.
You should not care, since in JS you can't access more than just "a button" -
no matter what the browser made of it.

I care for reasons stated in my prior response. I need to know this.
 
T

The Magpie

Peter said:
It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways that a
competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention without
violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
example of this.
A patent (limited though they are anyway) applies to an *invention* and
not to an *implementation*. If you have invented something then the GUI
you use to do it is irrelevant. Frankly, you should remember that the
entire patent is mostly irrelevant anyway, since software cannot be
patented in most of the world and most countries will simply ignore your
patent anyway.
 
P

Peter Olcott

The Magpie said:
A patent (limited though they are anyway) applies to an *invention* and
not to an *implementation*. If you have invented something then the GUI
you use to do it is irrelevant. Frankly, you should remember that the
entire patent is mostly irrelevant anyway, since software cannot be
patented in most of the world and most countries will simply ignore your
patent anyway.

The United States represents about half of the world software market, so that
patent has good coverage, in half the world. The rest of the world must still
legally respect the copyright. My original question can not be rephrased. What I
really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another program to
determine the exact location and current state of any graphical user interface
controls. Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
 
R

Richard Cornford

Peter Olcott wrote:
... . My original question can not be rephrased.

That would be a pity as your original question did not make sense in
javascript terms (javascript has no 'controls', instead relying on a
host to provide that type of facility). But It has been answered
anyway: browser hosts use Windows native input elements, their own
internal input elements and even Java Swing input elements (in the case
of IceBrowser at least).
What I really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another
program

What is 'another program'?
to determine the exact location

Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
determination to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
case).
and current state of any graphical user interface controls.

What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface control?
Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
the 'state' of the control/element.
Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.

AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.

Richard.
 
P

Peter Olcott

Richard Cornford said:
Peter Olcott wrote:


That would be a pity as your original question did not make sense in
javascript terms (javascript has no 'controls', instead relying on a
host to provide that type of facility). But It has been answered
anyway: browser hosts use Windows native input elements, their own
internal input elements and even Java Swing input elements (in the case
of IceBrowser at least).


What is 'another program'?

If we assume that there is a JavaScript program running in the web-browser, the
other program is any program besides this program. In other words I need a way
to determine the exact location and current state of any graphical user
interface controls that are displayed in the web-browser, and this way must be
able to provide this information to a different program beside the one running
in the web-browser.

Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
determination to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
case).


What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface control?

Is the checkbox currently checked or unchecked ("Current state" is a generic
term of the art of computer science).
Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
the 'state' of the control/element.

Great exactly how do they expose this, an API call?
AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.

The way that it was explained is that Ajax is a hodge podge conglomeration of
JavaScript, XML and some other things, and that these exposed properties are
exposed in an XML format.
 
M

Matt Kruse

Peter said:
My original question
can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is exactly how
difficult it is for another program to determine the exact location
and current state of any graphical user interface controls. Someone
told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.

The text above makes it obvious that you completely lack a basic level of
understanding required to even ask an intelligent question on the matter.

Equate it to: "I'm trying to figure out how easy it is to change the stapler
in my car using a tennis ball. I heard that it is easy using a cricket
ball." Your terms and words are so disconnected as to be meaningless.

Without a more detailed explaination of exactly what your patent is, what
kind of answer you are looking for, and how exactly it relates to
javascript, no one will be able to help you.
 
S

Sym

Maybe the answer is, yes, most people on this forum could write a
program (either in javascript or a compiled language like c++) that
could analyse the state of a browser that contains your application and
be able to determine what controls are present, their state, their
content, their position etc.



rgds
Sym
 
P

Peter Olcott

Matt Kruse said:
The text above makes it obvious that you completely lack a basic level of
understanding required to even ask an intelligent question on the matter.

Equate it to: "I'm trying to figure out how easy it is to change the stapler
in my car using a tennis ball. I heard that it is easy using a cricket ball."
Your terms and words are so disconnected as to be meaningless.

Without a more detailed explaination of exactly what your patent is, what kind
of answer you are looking for, and how exactly it relates to javascript, no
one will be able to help you.

I have almost no understanding of JavaScript.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=7046848.PN.&OS=PN/7046848&RS=PN/7046848

This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to be created.
I am attempting to estimate how difficult it would be to approximate the
functional benefits of my technology using alternative means.
 
R

Richard Cornford

Peter said:
If we assume that there is a JavaScript program running in the web-browser,
OK.

the other program is any program besides this program.

Narrow it down, why don't you?
In other words I need a way to determine the exact location and
current state of any graphical user interface controls that are
displayed in the web-browser, and this way must be able to provide
this information to a different program beside the one running
in the web-browser.

Where a browser (combined with the context ) makes the determination of
the location of elements possible the results of such calculations may
be sent to a web server (which qualifies as your 'other program') in
various ways.
Is the checkbox currently checked or unchecked

The W3C HTML DOM defined - HTMLInputElement - interface has a boolean -
checked - proprety, that represents a formalization of a traditional
feature of representations of input elements exposed to scripting.
("Current state" is a generic
term of the art of computer science).

And yet when asked for clarification you are only actually interested
in one aspect of the element's state.
Great exactly how do they expose this, an API call?

As properties of the exposed representations of the elements.
The way that it was explained is that Ajax is a hodge podge conglomeration
of JavaScript, XML and some other things, and that these exposed
properties are exposed in an XML format.

Yes, you can stop taking web development advice from whoever it was who
said that.

Richard.
 
P

Peter Olcott

Richard Cornford said:
Narrow it down, why don't you?

My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal scripting
language. In other words a scripting language capable of controlling literally
any program of any kind what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems
such as MS Windows. If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that
does not help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable of
controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only a tiny subset
of my primary goal.
Where a browser (combined with the context ) makes the determination of
the location of elements possible the results of such calculations may
be sent to a web server (which qualifies as your 'other program') in
various ways.

Yes, how would it do this, and what do you mean by context?
The W3C HTML DOM defined - HTMLInputElement - interface has a boolean -
checked - proprety, that represents a formalization of a traditional
feature of representations of input elements exposed to scripting.

I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for document object
model.
And yet when asked for clarification you are only actually interested
in one aspect of the element's state.

The most salient aspect of a graphical user control element's current state
would be its GUI control state. Its color could be construed as a part of the
state of the element, yet generally an inessential part of this state. Whether
or not a checkbox is checked, whether or not an edit box has text, and the value
of this text if present, all those things that directly pertain to this items
role as a GUI control element, also needed are its exact location, and the exact
location of its constituent parts, if any.
As properties of the exposed representations of the elements.

What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)
 
M

Matt Kruse

Peter said:
My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.

I suspect that your goal is completely unrealistic, and has nothing to do
with Javascript. You might get clarity by first really understanding what
you want to accomplish and expressing that in a well-worded summary. The
exercise of doing so might make you realize why your questions appear to be
completely irrelevant.
 
P

Peter Olcott

Matt Kruse said:
I suspect that your goal is completely unrealistic, and has nothing to do with
Javascript. You might get clarity by first really understanding what you want
to accomplish and expressing that in a well-worded summary. The exercise of
doing so might make you realize why your questions appear to be completely
irrelevant.

I have already accomplished this goal with my patented technology:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=7046848.PN.&OS=PN/7046848&RS=PN/7046848

My purpose here is to see how difficult it would be for others to achieve this
same functional benefit.
 
L

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen

Peter Olcott said:
My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly
universal scripting language. In other words a scripting language
capable of controlling literally any program of any kind
what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems such as MS
Windows.

It seems you are concentrating on the ability to recognize and
manipulate graphical user interfaces. If you have that ability in a
library, the language, scripting or not, around it isn't as important.
If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that does not
help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable
of controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only
a tiny subset of my primary goal.

The problem with the question is that there really aren't any
"JavaScript programs". JavaScript is itself a scripting language with
no graphical interface or even I/O features. It only really comes to
life when it's combined with a running environment that provides these
features, be it a page in a web browser, a server-side page on a web
server or running inside the windows scripting host.

So you can't say anything consistent about "JavaScript programs".
I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for
document object model.

W3C: World Wide Web Consortium, the people who specifies, among other
things, the HTML and DOM standards.
DOM: Correct.

[DOM element properties]
What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)
<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/>

/L
 
P

Peter Olcott

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen said:
It seems you are concentrating on the ability to recognize and
manipulate graphical user interfaces. If you have that ability in a
library, the language, scripting or not, around it isn't as important.

According to members of the Java newsgroup Java Swing's light weight controls
are one example on GUI controls that are fundamentally different than native
controls. I want to see how many examples of this sort of thing I can find
across everything that runs on the Win32 platform. This is the sort of thing
that makes deriving the sort of library that you suggested difficult.
If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that does not
help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable
of controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only
a tiny subset of my primary goal.

The problem with the question is that there really aren't any
"JavaScript programs". JavaScript is itself a scripting language with
no graphical interface or even I/O features. It only really comes to
life when it's combined with a running environment that provides these
features, be it a page in a web browser, a server-side page on a web
server or running inside the windows scripting host.

So you can't say anything consistent about "JavaScript programs".
I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for
document object model.

W3C: World Wide Web Consortium, the people who specifies, among other
things, the HTML and DOM standards.
DOM: Correct.

[DOM element properties]
What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)
<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/>

/L
 

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