Moderating and netiquet whiners hurting interest in Perl

[gimme_this_gimme_that]

I notice that comp.lang.perl.moderated has had about
18 posts since May 1, 2005.

On comp.lang.perl.misc there appears to be some activity,
but I note that about 8% of the posts are automated FAQ
posts.

On a few threads I noted some behavior which is unquie
to the c.l.p.* newsgroups. Someone posts a question then
gets scolded for not researching the answer. It's true
that sometimes the original poster could have googled
and found an answer. But the more typical case is that
someone has a valid question and instead of getting help
they a rude post about not having netiquette.

I fathom that around 2000 there was a big interest in Perl
and that newsgroups were swamped. But now, it appears that
interest in Perl has waned but the perl net police are
still giving away tickets.

 

[Brian Wakem]

I notice that comp.lang.perl.moderated has had about
18 posts since May 1, 2005.

On comp.lang.perl.misc there appears to be some activity,
but I note that about 8% of the posts are automated FAQ
posts.

On a few threads I noted some behavior which is unquie
to the c.l.p.* newsgroups. Someone posts a question then
gets scolded for not researching the answer. It's true
that sometimes the original poster could have googled
and found an answer. But the more typical case is that
someone has a valid question and instead of getting help
they a rude post about not having netiquette.

I fathom that around 2000 there was a big interest in Perl
and that newsgroups were swamped. But now, it appears that
interest in Perl has waned but the perl net police are
still giving away tickets.

I agree in part. Some of the regulars are quite rude at times. Sometimes
it is justified, sometimes not.

 

[John Bokma]

I agree in part. Some of the regulars are quite rude at times.
Sometimes it is justified, sometimes not.

AOL.

In the cases it is justified, it might stop similar posts. In cases it's
not, an apology would be appropriate (I made a stupid post recently and I
did apologise :-D ).

 

[Alan J. Flavell]

I agree in part. Some of the regulars are quite rude at times.

Many of the new posters are rude. Anyone of more than, say, 4 weeks
standing in the group can immediately see that they're treating this
as a write-only help desk, and have made not the slightest attempt to
fit into the usenet culture in general, or to get up to speed with the
general tone of the group - to see that their question was already
answered a few days ago anyway - bothered to read the group's posting
guidelines (many of which are standard practice anyway on comp.*
groups), and so on. Is it any wonder that long-standing members of
the group get grumpy? Some of the best of them got so fed up that
they left, and the group is the poorer for it. Nowadays I just plonk
the offenders into my killfile and keep quiet about it, for the most
part.

Sometimes it is justified, sometimes not.

My observations are that when a regular steps out of line, they're
happy to apologise afterwards. Which is more than can be said for the
newcomers, who are determined to tell us how we ought to be doing it
better. If they didn't go into the killfile before, that's the final
nail in their coffin.

 

[gimme_this_gimme_that]

Alan writes :

"... as a write-only help desk, and have made not the slightest attempt
to
fit into the usenet culture in general, or to get up to speed with the
general tone of the group "

Yes, perhaps 50% of the time, that is the case.

Personally, when seeking assistance for writing a regular expression
the first place I think of posting is at comp.lang.javascript.

I know that in a Perl newsgroup, not only is there a less than
50% chance that I'll get a working solution, but there I rarely
get, or read "don't post here - go away - spam".

Similarly I very rarely read "don't post here - go away spam" on
comp.text.xml or on comp.lang.javascript or comp.lang.java.
The intensity is unique to comp.lang.perl.*. Making matters
worse is the moderation. No one except for Perl developers
(no there are very few) ever use those groups.

It doesn't help that some of the original documentation
(Wall's) is poorly written. The new cookbook texts on the other
hand are very good.

BTW, I don't see what's so bad about having a help desk. That's
what exists in many other groups and it's tolerated as a sign
of success of that technology. Silence is enough to motivate
people to do some research.

Alan writes :
"My observations are that when a regular steps out of line, they're
happy to apologise afterwards."

I've never read something that might qualify as an apology.
If I had I'm certain that I would only read it on a Perl newsgroup
no where else.

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

Alan writes :

gimme, you have just demonstrated Alan's point: Please quote properly.

Alan writes :


I've never read something that might qualify as an apology.

I have read some, including a few of my own:

If I had I'm certain that I would only read it on a Perl newsgroup
no where else.

We do our earnest here not to give crap advice like "wipe your hard drive
clean" to people who might not know any better.

*Sigh*

*PLONK*

Sinan

 

[Sherm Pendley]

FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed

Bullshit. If you take the time to do a bit of your own research and frame
a coherent question, you'll get useful responses.

If you post incoherent babble that basically amounts to "I'm scared of the
docs and I want someone to hold my hand and read them to me", you'll get
flames in response, and rightly so. This ain't a baby-sitting service.

To get help with Perl, try subscribing on some of the ListServ's out
there... that's where the real perl action is.

Good advice. If you want to be spoon-fed answers without having to do any
of your own work, go somewhere else. That ain't what this group is for.

sherm--

 

[kevindotcar]

I notice that comp.lang.perl.moderated has had about
18 posts since May 1, 2005.

[---]


On a few threads I noted some behavior which is unquie
to the c.l.p.* newsgroups. Someone posts a question then
gets scolded for not researching the answer. It's true
that sometimes the original poster could have googled
and found an answer. But the more typical case is that
someone has a valid question and instead of getting help
they a rude post about not having netiquette.

[---]

Hi GTGT-

WOW- and I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Time to don my
flame-suit on as I continue this post...

</suit=on>
FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed- Also
FWIW- Perl is alive and doing well in the marketplace-

To get help with Perl, try subscribing on some of the ListServ's out
there... that's where the real perl action is. I'm not posting the
actual listserv names here out of fear that some of those with a high
personal "F-factor" in this newsgroup will join them.
</suit=off>

kDot

 

[Shawn Corey]

Good advice. If you want to be spoon-fed answers without having to do any
of your own work, go somewhere else. That ain't what this group is for.

sherm--

Go somewhere else where people aren't are rude as you? Good advise.

--- Shawn

 

[Robert Sedlacek]

(e-mail address removed) wrote

On a few threads I noted some behavior which is unquie
to the c.l.p.* newsgroups. Someone posts a question then
gets scolded for not researching the answer.

That depends on the newsgroups you're in. I find that very common and
good practice.

g,p

 

[Josef Moellers]

(e-mail address removed) wrote



That depends on the newsgroups you're in. I find that very common and
good practice.

I second that. Usually answers are quite polite, and "What have you
tried so far and where have you failed?" or "Please show us some real
code!" is far from scolding, especially if, as the OP quite rightly
observes, this is a "standard answer" to quite a number of questions, so
if you follow discussions in clpm for some time you're bound to notice this.

 

[s. keeling]

Good advice. If you want to be spoon-fed answers without having to do any
of your own work, go somewhere else. That ain't what this group is for.

Go somewhere else where people aren't [as] rude as you? Good advise.

No-one's forcing you to be here. If you can find accurate, expert
help for the same price as you get it for here, good for you. Bye.

Nobody's forcing anyone to help you for free. You owe it to them to
follow their rules. It's not like a little research would kill
anyone.

You're the one who's being rude.

 

[xhoster]

WOW- and I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Time to don my
flame-suit on as I continue this post...

</suit=on>
FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed- Also
FWIW- Perl is alive and doing well in the marketplace-

I post questions here occasionally, and almost never get flamed. Maybe
that is because I, for the most part, adhere to the collected wisdom of the
group by making my questions on-topic, coherent, and by including real
runnable strict-adhering code when my question is about specific code.

Xho

 

[kevindotcar]

FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed

Bullshit. [---]

Un-provoked potty-mouthism is a not-very professional trait-
something that the perl-posting-faq speaks to quite eloquently- it
says to speak perl rather than english- so here you go:

#!c:\perl\bin\perl.exe
foreach $var (unpack("u","0;&EG:'1E;B!U<\"!3:&5R;0``")) {print $var;}

[---] If you take the time to do a bit of your own research and frame
a coherent question, you'll get useful responses.

If you post incoherent babble that basically amounts to "I'm scared of the
docs and I want someone to hold my hand and read them to me", you'll get
flames in response, and rightly so. This ain't a baby-sitting service.

Sherm, software is touched more and more by non-programmers, and a
group with the name "misc" in it implies "generality" - if this group
was named comp.lang.perl.guru, or comp.lang.perl.moderated or some
such, then that would definitely be a signal for the newbie to
beware...

Newsgroups are supposed to promote communication; this group is unique
in that most random threads that I click on have several posts with an
summary of either;

0. Go away
1. Read the faq
2. Read the perldoc
3. Your question insults me

It's really no big deal to me because I'm quite comfortable with other
Perl information sources, but it's remarkable to me how this group has
become so statistically insular...

Usenet is *public*- If you want to create a moderated, gurus-only
cabal, then all you have to do is take 30 seconds out of your obviously
*very* busy day and just create a google group.

A few words of wisdom for those willing to listen; Everything you write
on the Internet lives forever; much like tattooing yourself; and the
person you flame may someday be your supervisor.... yes, that has
happened.

kDot

 

[kevindotcar]

I post questions here occasionally, and almost never get flamed.

Hi Xho-
This is actually a very intriguing post of yours...
You say you *almost never* get flamed-
and that's a *good* thing?

If I was in a friendship where I was *almost never*
beaten up, would that be a "good thing" ??

My guess is that the Qquestion/(s) you posted did not
deserve to be flamed-

Abusive people work on the motto that the people they
beat up "deserve it". Trust me; they know who they
are.

Just some food for thought.

kDot

 

[lynn]

Hi Kevin,

</suit=on>
FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed-
Also FWIW- Perl is alive and doing well in the marketplace-

I feel that you are wrong here, I am a "newbe" Perl programmer
and I have posted questions here and have always received an
answer without being "flamed" example:
http://tinyurl.com/8gnqr

I think the problem is with the people asking the questions not
the ones answering them.

Lynn

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed

Bullshit. [---]

Un-provoked potty-mouthism is a not-very professional trait-

Actually, that is honesty.

Newsgroups are supposed to promote communication; this group is
unique in that most random threads that I click on have several posts
with an summary of either;

0. Go away
1. Read the faq
2. Read the perldoc
3. Your question insults me

Wake up! *You* have the power. Each time you see one of ask point a
poster to the documentation, *you* can step right in, and post a
complete and working answer to that question. On the other hand, I can
see that so far the handful of contributions you have made to this group
have consisted entirely of pscyhobable.

It's really no big deal to me

No, the big deal to you to be able to get someone's attention by
trolling.

but it's remarkable to me how this group has become so
statistically insular...

I teach Statistics, and I have no idea what "statistically insular"
means.

Usenet is *public*- If you want to create a moderated, gurus-only
cabal, then all you have to do is take 30 seconds out of your
obviously *very* busy day and just create a google group.

You may wish to follow your own advice. (Not that you would know the
difference between UseNet and Google Groups, but that is another story).

A few words of wisdom for those willing to listen; Everything you
write on the Internet lives forever; much like tattooing yourself;
and the person you flame may someday be your supervisor.... yes, that
has happened.

Which is why I post without X-No-Archive set, and under my real name. It
seems to me like you are worried that your posts may reflect negatively
on you.

kDot

Unless your parents really did name you that, of course.

Sinan.

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

1. Read the faq

Which is good advice, a newbie is pointed to the FAQ. A thing that
probably answers more of his/her questions in the near (and even far)
future.

2. Read the perldoc

Yup, which is the most reliable source regarding specific questions.
What's the point in repeating it here? Moreover, if someone repeats it,
he/she has to copy paste it. Typing from memory might introduce
confusing, mistakes, etc.

3. Your question insults me

Yeah, that happens, and that can often be blamed on the OP. I mean some
ask: Hey, I have downloaded 3000+ lines of PERL (included) and now I
want help, free & fast!!! EMAIL IT!

Usenet is *public*- If you want to create a moderated, gurus-only
cabal, then all you have to do is take 30 seconds out of your
obviously *very* busy day and just create a google group.

Nonsense: there is netiquette, a newbie should read it.

A few words of wisdom for those willing to listen; Everything you
write on the Internet lives forever; much like tattooing yourself;
and the person you flame may someday be your supervisor.... yes, that
has happened.

and you grovel in front of your supervisor?

Usenet is like going to a pub. Your mate in a pub might become your
supervisor.... Does that prevent you (general, not you specific) from
getting pissed?

There are plenty of stories of people insulting someone IRL, and the
next day when they have a job interview... right.

Turn it around: the newbie asking a gazillion stupid questions, ignoring
all polite pointers to FAQ/docs, etc. might be having a job interview
next week, claiming to be an experienced Perl programmer... Maybe one of
the regulars of this group is sitting on the other site of the desk.

In short, have fun :-D.

 

[John Bokma]

Unless your parents really did name you that, of course.

Actually, it looks like Dotcar is a last name, so yeah, possible.

"152B 71 Dotcar John 30 Hungary 008-151b.txt"

<http://ftp.us-census.org/pub/usgenweb/census/oh/cuyahoga/1900/indx-d2.txt>

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

You say you *almost never* get flamed-
and that's a *good* thing?

If I was in a friendship where I was *almost never*
beaten up, would that be a "good thing" ??

Only if you mistake an argument (flame) for beating up, sure.

A friendship that never has arguments / disagreements / fights is probably
one were one person is extremely afraid of the other.