What's the easiest and/or simplest part of Linux Kernel?

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by 郭é–, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. 郭é–

    James Kuyper Guest

    On 08/29/2013 02:43 PM, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
    ....
    Is there an explicit prescription anywhere that this is an English
    newsgroup? That does seem to be the convention, and I've felt a little
    annoyed on those rare occasions when a conversation has been carried on
    here in other languages, but is there any actual rule violated by such
    conversations?

    usenet itself is international. The Chinese text occurred only in a line
    that was created automatically by his newsreader. I'm not sure how to
    disable it, or even if it can be disabled (we are talking about Google
    Groups, after all - but I'm not even sure how to control that behavior
    in my own newsreader, Thunderbird). Assuming that it can be disabled,
    are you seriously suggesting that he should do so every time he switches
    from a Chinese language newsgroup to an English one? If he is a native
    speaker of Chinese with a knowledge of English sufficient to justify
    posting to this newsgroup, which seems to be the case, he's likely to
    perform such switching pretty frequently.
     
    James Kuyper, Aug 29, 2013
    #21
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  2. Eric Raymond is who said what I quoted, so he is the proper person to
    attribute. To attribute it to Brooks would be untrue. To claim that
    _I_ had paraphrased Brooks, when I was actually quoting Raymond, would
    be plagiarism.
    I read TMMM not because someone told me to but because it was cited in
    conversation. Ditto for many other important books, including TCatB. I
    was returning the favor by citing it myself.
    .... except it's not. The quote is actually from TCatB, so the proper
    attribution should have corrected your faulty memory. You're welcome.

    S
     
    Stephen Sprunk, Aug 29, 2013
    #22
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  3. Usenet is not English-only, so being able to use non-ASCII characters is
    a feature, not a bug. I see folks posting in other languages all the
    time, yet nobody complains if it uses Latin characters. Why are
    non-Latin characters to be singled out for abuse? Does he not have a
    right to use his real name, for instance, rather than a transliterated
    approximation?
    You quoted a bunch of replacement characters and asked him to "fix" his
    newsreader, even though it was yours that wasn't working correctly.

    You said nothing about the line spacing bug, or various other quoting
    bugs, which Google Groups seems to have in _every_ language.

    S
     
    Stephen Sprunk, Aug 29, 2013
    #23
  4. There are few if any explicit rules here, just conventions (one of which
    is that discussions occur in English).

    An occasional Chinese (or French, or German) character in an attribution
    line doesn't bother me -- and seems not to be what was being complained
    about anyway.

    [...]
     
    Keith Thompson, Aug 29, 2013
    #24
  5. I probably would have cited it like this:

    "Show me your code and conceal your data structures, and I
    shall continue to be mystified. Show me your data structures,
    and I won't usually need your code; it'll be obvious."
    -- Eric S. Raymond, The Cathedral and the Bazaar,
    paraphrasing Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man-Month

    The original Brooks quote:

    Show me your flowcharts and conceal your tables, and I shall
    continue to be mystified. Show me your tables, and I won’t usually
    need your flowcharts; they’ll be obvious.

    may be unclear to a modern reader; Raymond's paraphrase probably
    presents the concept more clearly, and I agree that quoting the
    paraphrase was a good idea. Both deserve credit: Brooks for the
    idea, Raymond for the paraphrase.

    [...]
     
    Keith Thompson, Aug 29, 2013
    #25
  6. (snip)
    I suspect that if I post in EBCDIC I won't get many useful replies,
    assuming it gets through the posting host.

    -- glen
     
    glen herrmannsfeldt, Aug 29, 2013
    #26
  7. 郭é–

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    I suppose I will have to be clearer ...

    It's not about the character set, it's about the attribution line not
    being readable, assuming we agree the lingua franca here is English.

    It's the same bug as Swedish versions of newsreaders prepending "SV:"
    to the subject line instead of "Re:", or French ones using "a ecrit"
    instead of "wrote": assuming the sender's local preferred settings
    should affect what is seen by the recipients.
    He does (although it will affect the usefulness of his message).
    I would have, if I had expected it to turn into a tedious discussion.
    It was meant as a very quickly typed indication that I found the
    posting hard to read and reply to, and I had edited away the line
    spacing bugs so I couldn't attach the complaint there.
    You seem to be reading some kind of disrespect to Chinese people or
    culture or character sets in particlar into my message. Just to be
    clear: I didn't intend such a thing. It was just the same old Google
    Groups bugs which annoyed me -- again.

    /Jorgen
     
    Jorgen Grahn, Aug 30, 2013
    #27
  8. I thought about doing that, and I would have for a formal paper, but
    this is Usenet; I figured anyone who cared either would already know
    both quotes or would Google it to learn more. It's not like TCatB is an
    obscure source among programmers.
    Is credit not transitive? i.e. I credited Raymond, Raymond credited
    Brooks, ergo I credited Brooks?

    S
     
    Stephen Sprunk, Aug 30, 2013
    #28
  9. 郭é–

    James Kuyper Guest

    On 08/29/2013 07:01 PM, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
    ....
    I'd say that's the key point of disagreement. As long as the name of
    author is readable (which it was), I don't see any point in mandating
    the use of English in that context. Even the components of the date and
    time were readable (though the fact that "3" meant "3 PM" wasn't
    obvious). More importantly, I don't know of any one who has issued such
    a mandate, nor anyone with the authority to do so.
     
    James Kuyper, Aug 30, 2013
    #29
  10. Vous avez dit "lingua franca", alors pourquoi ne parlez-vous en français?*

    There's no charter saying this is an English-only group, and folks do
    post in other languages from time to time. It's a convention at best,
    and his attribution line was easy enough to parse anyway because they
    all have roughly the same content, regardless of what language they're
    in. The biggest problem was your newsreader (slrn?) not decoding the
    characters as intended or not properly encoding your response quoting
    them. UTF-8 just passed 20 years old; this is not new technology.
    That is an unfortunate side effect of using plain text rather than a
    structured document format like HTML. However, Usenet consensus seems
    to be that HTML messages are a Bad Thing(tm), so unless you stick to
    groups without participants with other native languages, you're going to
    run into this over and over.
    I don't see how using his real name affects the usefulness of his
    message at all. Even if your keyboard doesn't allow you to (easily)
    type it, you should still be able to cut and paste it if needed. It's
    not like the message body itself was in Chinese, which would have
    severely limited his audience.
    Ah. For future reference, when telling someone to fix something, it's
    helpful to specify what you think is broken. :)
    I didn't think you had a problem with Chinese specifically, but I run
    into broken apps or web sites every day that handle non-English Latin
    characters in single-byte encodings fine but break down when facing
    non-Latin characters or even non-English Latin characters in multi- byte
    encodings. That's a pet peeve of mine.
    I think Google Groups annoys pretty much everyone on Usenet who does not
    use it themselves. I've been tempted to killfile the entire mess, but
    many of the problems only crop up in replies to GG posts, which are
    often worth reading, not the GG posts themselves.

    S

    * "You said 'lingua franca', so why do you not speak in French?"
     
    Stephen Sprunk, Aug 30, 2013
    #30
  11. No, it's not. You say that anyone who cared would Google it to learn
    more, but someone who doesn't happen to be familiar with either
    the original quote or with Eric Raymond's paraphrase would likely
    have no particular reason to Google it. I was familiar with the
    Brooks quote, and so I recognized the paraphrase for what it was.
    I've probably read the Raymond paraphrase, but I didn't remember it.
    If I hadn't seen either, I would have taken the paraphrase as a
    clever statement by Raymond that stands on its own.

    I don't think this is as big a deal as the length of this response makes
    it look like I do; I'm replying to your apparent assertion that you
    already provided sufficient attribution.

    "Don't trust quotations you see on the Internet"
    -- Abraham Lincoln, comp.std.c, 1732.
     
    Keith Thompson, Aug 30, 2013
    #31
  12. 郭é–

    James Kuyper Guest

    How in the world were we supposed to reach that conclusion? You didn't
    say that's what the complaint was about, and there were no examples of
    that bug in the quoted text preceding the complaint. You removed the
    double spacing from the quoted text following the complaint.
     
    James Kuyper, Aug 30, 2013
    #32
  13. 郭é–

    Eric Sosman Guest

    "That was the curious incident."
    -- S. Holmes
     
    Eric Sosman, Aug 30, 2013
    #33
  14. 郭é–

    Phil Carmody Guest

    "Commands and replies are composed of characters from the ASCII character set."

    Yours slam-dunkingly,
    Phil
     
    Phil Carmody, Aug 30, 2013
    #34
  15. 郭é–

    James Kuyper Guest

    This applies to attribution lines?
     
    James Kuyper, Aug 30, 2013
    #35
  16. That is true of NNTP itself, but that says nothing of the content of the
    messages carried. Ditto for SMTP and HTTP.

    In fact, all use the same standard (MIME) for transporting character
    encodings other than ASCII, most commonly UTF-8. Millions (billions?)
    use these protocols to communicate in languages other than English every
    day.

    S
     
    Stephen Sprunk, Aug 30, 2013
    #36
  17. ¿Really?
     
    Keith Thompson, Aug 30, 2013
    #37
  18. 郭é–

    Phil Carmody Guest

    To everyting.

    Phil
     
    Phil Carmody, Aug 31, 2013
    #38
  19. 郭é–

    Phil Carmody Guest

    Why not query the RFC that you've just violated yourself?

    Phil
     
    Phil Carmody, Aug 31, 2013
    #39
  20. Violated? ¡Qué barbaridad!

    Quotes from RFC 3977, "Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP)":

    On page 1:

    "Obsoletes: 977"

    On page 3:

    "Although the protocol specification in this document is largely
    compatible with the version specified in RFC 977 [RFC977], a number
    of changes are summarised in Appendix D. In particular:

    o the default character set is changed from US-ASCII [ANSI1986] to
    UTF-8 [RFC3629] (note that US-ASCII is a subset of UTF-8);"

    On page 5:

    "The character set for all NNTP commands is UTF-8 [RFC3629]."
     
    Ben Bacarisse, Aug 31, 2013
    #40
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