Will this do it?

K

Kim André Akerø

Frogleg said:
I'm trying to determine what's needed for a 'build a web site' class I
may teach. I've made up a questionnaire for prospetive students. I
don't want people to take the questionnaire, just check it over and
see if you think I've covered the relevant material. TIA

http://home.earthlink.net/~absolutelyfake/question.htm

I'd suggest you reword some of the questions, such as to the following:

1. How experienced are you with Windows or the Mac OS?
2. How often do you use your computer to create and edit text documents?
6. How experienced are you with downloading and installing software from the
web?
7. Have you previously made or attempted to make a web site?
10. Which of the following terms do you know the rough meaning of? (check
all that apply)
 
J

Jim Higson

Frogleg said:
I'm trying to determine what's needed for a 'build a web site' class I
may teach. I've made up a questionnaire for prospetive students. I
don't want people to take the questionnaire, just check it over and
see if you think I've covered the relevant material. TIA

http://home.earthlink.net/~absolutelyfake/question.htm

A couple of points:

When you talk about "text documents" - to me a text document is anything in
plain text, but you seem to be talking about word processing.

I'd change:
Do you regularly use your computer to create and edit text documents?
to
Do you regularly use your computer to create and edit text?



Also:
8. Have you used Microsoft FrontPage or another WYSIWYG design application?

Please, please - if you were thinking of doing so, don't introduce people to
website design via frontpage!
 
L

lostinspace

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Higson" <>
Newsgroups: alt.html
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:22 AM
Subject: Re: Will this do it?

A couple of points:

When you talk about "text documents" - to me a text document is anything
in
plain text, but you seem to be talking about word processing.

I'd change:
Do you regularly use your computer to create and edit text documents?
to
Do you regularly use your computer to create and edit text?



Also:
8. Have you used Microsoft FrontPage or another WYSIWYG design
application?

Please, please - if you were thinking of doing so, don't introduce people
to
website design via frontpage!


Jim,
If your aware of the distinction between Word and text?

Than how can you NOT be aware of the difference between web pages created
from within Word and web pages created from within FrontPage?

There is a considerable difference of which FP's quality has been
erroneously attributed.
 
J

Jim Higson

lostinspace said:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Higson" <>
Newsgroups: alt.html
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:22 AM
Subject: Re: Will this do it?




Jim,
If your aware of the distinction between Word and text?

Than how can you NOT be aware of the difference between web pages created
from within Word and web pages created from within FrontPage?

I think you misunderstand, my first point wasn't that web pages should be
created in Word (I never even mentioned Word!)

The question was:
2. Do you regularly use your computer to create and edit text documents?
No.
I write letters at home or type reports at work
I need and use many of the features of my word-processing program

From the 2nd and 3rd answers I guessed the questioner was talking about word
processing documents, not text documents.
 
F

Frogleg

Thanks for the comments. Re: "text documents" -- yes, could be better
worded. What I mean is "can you create, store, retrieve, and edit
files?" Perhaps I should say just that, eh?

Re: PS, Mac or XX -- these will be home computer users. If they're
Unix wizards, they'll surely reveal that in the comment space. :)

Re:FrontPage -- just trying to gauge general interest and vague
familiarity with the subject of "making a web page." I will NOT be
presenting it as an option.

Re: "power surfer" -- yes, I know it's horrible. Another suggestion?
 
T

Toby Inkster

Frogleg said:
Re: PS, Mac or XX -- these will be home computer users. If they're
Unix wizards, they'll surely reveal that in the comment space. :)

Who said anything about *nix. It's perfectly possible that you'll get
someone turning up whose home computer is a relic running DOS (which is
still fine for a bit of word processing and some games), a Palm handheld
computer or if you're really lucky, a BeBox.
 
A

Augustus

Frogleg said:
I'm trying to determine what's needed for a 'build a web site' class I
may teach. I've made up a questionnaire for prospetive students. I
don't want people to take the questionnaire, just check it over and
see if you think I've covered the relevant material. TIA

http://home.earthlink.net/~absolutelyfake/question.htm

Here are my thoughts...

1) The quiz you have is pretty irrelevant unless you plan to filter your
students. IE: if you were a post secondary school this type of quiz might
work if you were going to pick which applicants you were going to let in the
course or not. Otherwise you have to go with the least common denominator
as far as knowledge goes (if EVERYBODY in the course has previously done a
website except 1, you either have to kick that 1 out or start at his/her
skill level)
Some of the questions you have might be best asked as group questions... ie:
"Show of hands... how many of you have already created a website and
published it to the internet?"
This way slower students would know who they might turn to for help if they
fall behind and you are not available.

2) If you want to test what they actually know... then what you should do is
devise your course and course material up first. Then write up what you
think would be a good final exam (something that somebody who paid attention
to everything in class should get 100% on) and then on the first day give
the students that as a quiz and see who got how much right (this is for your
reference, not for marks)
Some example questions might be:
- What would the following do <span style='font:black bold 5em'>Hello
World</span>?
- Which of the following is an example of a WYSIWYG (what you see is what
you get) editor?
- Which of the following is valid HTML
- etc

3) When you ask if they know what "domain name, hosting, FTP, bandwidth,
url, search engine, links" mean... most of this is irrelevant to teaching
HTML. You would be best off giving a little 15-20 minute lecture at the
start where you can cover relevant related topics and save some of the
things (like FTP and Search Engines) for the end of the course as a 'So you
made a website... now what do you do?' if you have time to cover this at the
end.

4) For the actual course itself you are best to start off with the basics of
HTML using a text editor and some VERY BASIC CSS (just for fonts, colors,
text size, bolding, itallics, justification, etc). This means pretty much
starting off with using a <span> or <div> and doing the "Hello World" thing.
Don't worry about going into things like CSS layouts and similar.

5) Unless the course is specifically about programs like Frontpage or
Dreamweaver, you should start them off using a text editor (like notepad or
editplus) and then work them up towards using a WYSIWYG editor. If you show
somebody how easy it is to walk with a crutch they might not bother to learn
how to walk without it. So best to start with hand coding and then later
teach them tools that might make the task easier.

6) As far as the overall content of the course goes: You might try buying
one of those "Learn HTML in 24 Hours" or "Learn how to build websites in ___
steps/hours". Most of them have a good step-by-step layout and a well
thought out progression (what to do first, what to do next, etc)

7) If you are prejudiced against certain aspects of web development (eg:
ASP, Microsoft, Frontpage, Internet Explorer) you are best to leave those at
the door.
 
A

Augustus

Leif K-Brooks said:
"Are you experienced with Windows or the Mac OS?" What about other
operating systems?

This goes to one of the points I was trying to make in my posting... who
cares what operating system they know or don't know? HTML is meant to be
cross platform compatible (for the most part) and so if you have one guy who
is a whiz with Windows sitting next to a Mac user it won't matter because
when they go back to their computers to work they'll work with whatever
operating system they are familiar with and prefer.
 
L

Leif K-Brooks

Frogleg said:
Re: PS, Mac or XX -- these will be home computer users. If they're
Unix wizards, they'll surely reveal that in the comment space. :)

One doesn't have to be a "Unix wizard" to use an operating system
besides Mac OS or Windows. Today's Unix GUIs are at least as friendly as
Windows, and there are definitely plenty of home users out there.
 
M

Mark Parnell

One doesn't have to be a "Unix wizard" to use an operating system
besides Mac OS or Windows. Today's Unix GUIs are at least as friendly as
Windows, and there are definitely plenty of home users out there.

While I agree that the options given aren't adequate (if necessary at
all), surely most people who can use *nix can also use Windows?
 
T

Toby Inkster

Mark said:
While I agree that the options given aren't adequate (if necessary at
all), surely most people who can use *nix can also use Windows?

Probably, yes. But not all. There will certainly be many UNIX users who
have very little experience of Windows.

I've been using DOS and Windows for over half my life. When I got a new
computer (which is still my primary desktop computer!) in June 1999 I
bought a copy of SuSE Linux and installed that on it, dual booting, though
I used Windows about 95% of the time.

I went to Uni in October 1999 and used Linux in the computer labs there
almost exclusively, while mainly using Windows on my home machine. But by
late 2000, I was using Linux almost exclusively both at work and home,
ditching Windows from my home computer entirely in March 2001 (never used
it and it was taking up a lot of space).

Until I got a job where I am now in October 2002, I maybe used Windows
half a dozen times. Then I started work and had to use Windows, which was
a *lot* of relearning. (Of course, it's always easier when you learn
something for the second time.) Now I use Linux on my desktop at home and
at work, but still admin a fleet of about 60 Windows workstations and 4
Windows servers, which keeps my Windows skills up to scratch too.
 
W

WebcastMaker

Probably, yes. But not all. There will certainly be many UNIX users who
have very little experience of Windows.

I think you could count the number of (non geek) home *nix users on the
proverbial one hand. As much as the *nix world would like to belive, it
is still not popular with soccer moms. And until it gains that support,
home use will continue to be trivial.

(Note, I am not saying it is better or worse than any other OS)
 
F

Frogleg

Here are my thoughts...

1) The quiz you have is pretty irrelevant unless you plan to filter your
students.

I plan to filter the students and/or tailor the program. In either
case, I have to have some idea of where to start.
"Show of hands... how many of you have already created a website and
published it to the internet?"
This way slower students would know who they might turn to for help if they
fall behind and you are not available.

Good idea. If/when this gets going, I will do exactly that.
2) If you want to test what they actually know... then what you should do is
devise your course and course material up first.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? I've been approached to do
*some* kind of "build a web site" class for a local gov't. The Person
in Charge didn't know what a domain (name) was, 'though she has
broadband access at work, and we've been communicating primarily by
e-mail. See what I mean? We computer types assume "everyone knows" a
lot more than they do. My next door neighbor (who uses a PC at home
and at work) said I was confusing her with jargon when I mentioned
pixels in connection with a photo.
When you ask if they know what "domain name, hosting, FTP, bandwidth,
url, search engine, links" mean... most of this is irrelevant to teaching
HTML.

Indeed. But I mean it as a way for *me* to sense their level of
knowledge.

And no one has caught the deliberately 'trick' question. A 'no' for #3
means they don't know that the 'Paint' app included in Windows (is it
still MacPaint for the Mac? It's been a long time...) is about
graphics.
 
F

Frogleg

I think you could count the number of (non geek) home *nix users on the
proverbial one hand.

My thoughts exactly. This isn't meant to be an in-depth analysis of
the general population's knowledge and use -- just a way for me to
know how to set up boot camp for a group of people who've expressed
interest in "making a web site."
 

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