100% Open Source Job Opportunities???

P

Pavel

Is there anyone out there that actually works at a 100% Open Source
company, and actually makes a decent salary?

IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, and the like, are all making gazillions of
dollars off of open source products and ideas. As a Java developer, I
find that I am becoming more and more reliant on open source tools and
less reliant on commercial products. With Java as a language, and the
projects by Apache, Tigris, Source Forge, and the GNU, it's a wonder why
some of these big names are even still in the software business. Is it
just that companies don't know about the power of open source ?!?! What
does an Exchange server "really" give me. What is $20K for a Portal
engine? $10K per database? Photoshop or GIMP?!? $1-5K for an IDE?
For what?!? With a little more up-front work, and a few free online
resources... my open source stuff works a thousand times better.

What's in a name?

Besides RedHat, JBoss, and a handful of others, you don't really hear
about enough open source success stories. Is anyone out there
interested in starting a Java, LAMP, and open source solutions company?

Who wants to shake things up a little bit? Maybe start a new campaign ?!?!

Java 4 Life,
Pavel :)
 
M

Michael Powe

Pavel> Is there anyone out there that actually works at a 100%
Pavel> Open Source company, and actually makes a decent salary?

No, but I believe Orbitz is in that category and probably "pays well."

http://www.cio.com/archive/070105/cendant.html

Some time ago, I read in an article that Orbitz wrote 100% of its own
internal software, using open source applications as the basis.
Obviously, the software used by travel agents and airlines is not OS.

It's running on Linux, though.

From my observation, most of the big kahunas in OS are consultants in
real life and they use their OS work on their resumes. Jordan Hubbard
of FreeBSD told me once that he had vendors sending him hardware
unsolicited and job offers in the 6 figures. Consulting has many
advantages (I'm a consultant myself) but you put in a lot more hours
than you would in an office job. In fact, I'm pretty much "on the
job" 24x7x365.

mp
 
P

Pavel

From my observation, most of the big kahunas in OS are consultants in
real life and they use their OS work on their resumes. Jordan Hubbard
of FreeBSD told me once that he had vendors sending him hardware
unsolicited and job offers in the 6 figures. Consulting has many
advantages (I'm a consultant myself) but you put in a lot more hours
than you would in an office job. In fact, I'm pretty much "on the
job" 24x7x365.

mp

Thanks for the reply.

I'm looking to create an open source consulting firm, probably even
not-for-profit, in the NY/NJ/PA metro area, and if you know anyone
giving away free hardware, and/or interested in becoming the next big
Open Source thing, you be sure to let me know. :)

I'm extremely interested in the same 24x7x365, as long as I'm getting
paid for it and I have unlimited access to coffee. Any startup advice
from someone that is already doing this?

Pavel
 
J

Jeffrey H. Coffield

Pavel said:
Is there anyone out there that actually works at a 100% Open Source
company, and actually makes a decent salary?

IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, and the like, are all making gazillions of
dollars off of open source products and ideas. As a Java developer, I
find that I am becoming more and more reliant on open source tools and
less reliant on commercial products. With Java as a language, and the
projects by Apache, Tigris, Source Forge, and the GNU, it's a wonder why
some of these big names are even still in the software business. Is it
just that companies don't know about the power of open source ?!?! What
does an Exchange server "really" give me. What is $20K for a Portal
engine? $10K per database? Photoshop or GIMP?!? $1-5K for an IDE? For
what?!? With a little more up-front work, and a few free online
resources... my open source stuff works a thousand times better.

What's in a name?

Besides RedHat, JBoss, and a handful of others, you don't really hear
about enough open source success stories. Is anyone out there
interested in starting a Java, LAMP, and open source solutions company?

Who wants to shake things up a little bit? Maybe start a new campaign ?!?!

Java 4 Life,
Pavel :)

Sun evidently thinks it can make money (and I agree) by creating and
supporting Java. IBM is adopting Linux because they can sell hardware
running it. As far as I know, neither Oracle nor especially Microsoft
are supporting any open source products and in Microsoft's case they
have actively tried to undermine Java if favor of their very closed
source .NET.

I use a lot of open source products and, as far as I can, try to support
their development. But for my own company and our customers, there is no
way open source products will any time soon replace all the commercial
software they run. One critical issue is support. If you are a medium to
large business and your application has a problem with either the OS or
the database, you want to be able to call someone who is responsible for
fixing your problem. With open source, you are dependent on newsgroups
or contacting a developer who is willing to help. I have tried calling
both Red Hat and Suse/Novell when I have had issues with Linux and if
the problem wasn't with their own small part of the distribution they
were of no help.

One question I have is how do you intend to get money to support an open
source solutions company? If it's truly open source, why should anybody
pay you?

Jeff Coffield
 
J

Jeffrey Schwab

Pavel said:
Is there anyone out there that actually works at a 100% Open Source
company, and actually makes a decent salary?

The entire Venezuelan government supposedly uses only Open Source software.
 
D

David Segall

Pavel said:
Is there anyone out there that actually works at a 100% Open Source
company, and actually makes a decent salary?
I assume that the huge staff that IBM and Sun assign to projects like
NetBeans, Eclipse and Apache earn the same salary as those assigned to
their in-house projects.
IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, and the like, are all making gazillions of
dollars off of open source products and ideas.
I doubt it. IBM and Sun contribute large amounts to open source
projects. All of them have had a substantial proportion of their sales
cut by free or open source competitors.
Is anyone out there
interested in starting a Java, LAMP, and open source solutions company?

Who wants to shake things up a little bit? Maybe start a new campaign ?!?!
I think you are far too late. Free software has won and open source is
not far behind. There is no major database that does not have a freely
distributable version. Only IBM does not have a free version of their
Java IDE and they pay the salaries of many (most?) of the programmers
at Eclipse. Sun offers most of their software at no cost and has, or
is the process of, open sourcing it. Even Microsoft has capitulated.
They spent millions offering a free alternative to Netscape, they have
free versions of all their development and database software and have
even announced a cooperative deal with JBoss.
 
P

Pavel

Sun evidently thinks it can make money (and I agree) by creating and
supporting Java.

Sun is by far the least offensive because of Java and their intention to
finally release Java as open source. But some of the things they do are
bewildering... like creating Sun Java Studio Creator and Sun Java Studio
Enterprise, but showing only the JDK Bundle with NetBeans upfront. I'm
happy that they're now offering Creator and Enterprise for free to
members, but why not just make one killer IDE and charge for training,
support, and conferences? I would love to see them go on a massive
global learning campaign in support of learning the language. IMHO, Sun
SHOULD be earning huge profits, and directing more attention to
destroying Microsoft based on an idea rather than from a product
(Hardware excluded). Focusing on the people, not the products, and I
think they would turn 100 times the profit, no?
IBM is adopting Linux because they can sell hardware
running it.

I am thankful for IBM, and have kept a career on most of their products
until now. I know that they support Linux and of course Eclipse, both
of which I am also thankful for. But at this point, couldn't they crush
their competitors by creating a better support model? I know some of
their customers that buy their products just for the name alone. I
guess what drives my rant is the fact that I have to pay heavily for the
products AND the support, and it seems they don't give a damn about
small business. Websphere? Workplace? Rational? Tivoli? All
excellent products, but Microsoft is still dominating small businesses
and personal computing.
As far as I know, neither Oracle nor especially Microsoft
are supporting any open source products and in Microsoft's case they
have actively tried to undermine Java if favor of their very closed
source .NET.

Oracle seems to support and embrace Java in all of their products. Like
IBM, I honestly can't say too much bad about them, except that I wish
they, too, would change a few things about their distribution and support.
I use a lot of open source products and, as far as I can, try to support
their development. But for my own company and our customers, there is no
way open source products will any time soon replace all the commercial
software they run.

What can't you replace, and why? I'll need to know when I start my
venture. And, in my spare time, if I can help you replace one product,
I will do it free of charge. Then, what would replacing all of the
products be worth to you? Anyone else interested? Who else on this
newsgroup will offer to help me help Jeff? If I can turn one person to
Open Source, I can turn two. Eventually, someone is going to pay.
One critical issue is support. If you are a medium to
large business and your application has a problem with either the OS or
the database, you want to be able to call someone who is responsible for
fixing your problem. With open source, you are dependent on newsgroups
or contacting a developer who is willing to help. I have tried calling
both Red Hat and Suse/Novell when I have had issues with Linux and if
the problem wasn't with their own small part of the distribution they
were of no help.

Finding support for open source seems to be the only reason that most
companies go with the brands. But have you ever sat on the phone with
IBM support. I don't know how many times I've called IBM for support on
Websphere and Lotus Domino, only to find that the solution was posted by
some Joe Schmoe message board. Have you ever tried to deal with
companies like Business Objects, Apple, or Dell? I've been on the phone
for hours and I've waited for patches for weeks. How about Microsoft?
No thank you... I took the plunge, and learned Linux and OpenOffice, and
I will never own a personal copy of Microshaft-Anything ever again, so
long as I live. All I am saying is that, sometimes, even when you pay
for support... are you really getting any? Would you rather have
outsourced support personnel over the phone from only God knows where,
or an in-house MIT graduate looking to pay for tuition or the beer and
strip-club fund?
One question I have is how do you intend to get money to support an open
source solutions company?

Jeff, I believe whole-heartedly that the previous response about
support in open source truly sets the stage. I believe open source
needs to become more organized, and people in this realm need to come
together more than they compete. Therefore, I see an unlimited earning
potential, and hope to start down that path, soon.
> If it's truly open source, why should anybody pay you?
> Jeff Coffield

Open Source should be the only way to go. Pay for hardware, time,
knowledge, and support - not products, or technology. RedHat, Apache,
Tigris, MySQL, JBoss, and SourceForge should be an example to everyone
who shares my vision. If anyone else is interested in an unlimited
earning potential using open source solutions please contact me. I just
want to know who is coming with me?

Sincerely,
Pavel
(e-mail address removed)

P.S. - Will work for food.
 
P

Pavel

I assume that the huge staff that IBM and Sun assign to projects like
NetBeans, Eclipse and Apache earn the same salary as those assigned to
their in-house projects.

Let's hope so. I plan on investigating into and contributing to the
source code pretty soon.
I think you are far too late.

Let's hope not. There's still a lot more that can be done.
There is no major database that does not have a freely
distributable version.

Any row limits? Are they 100% Customizable? Have you been turning back
the clock for any trial-period software lately?
Only IBM does not have a free version of their
Java IDE and they pay the salaries of many (most?) of the programmers
at Eclipse. Sun offers most of their software at no cost and has, or
is the process of, open sourcing it.

I recognize that IBM and Sun are leading and/or moving towards open
source, but do you feel like anything is still missing?
Even Microsoft has capitulated.
They spent millions offering a free alternative to Netscape, they have
free versions of all their development and database software and have
even announced a cooperative deal with JBoss.

Not to flare up the Microsoft vs. Open Source debate, but Microsoft will
support any effort that keeps their products relevant, and they only
embrace open source when it seems like a good idea. I imagine this is
just a ploy to keep JBoss customers on Windows Server rather than
switching to RedHat, which now owns JBoss. But the fact that Microsoft
seems to have cloned everything, or destroyed anything through
acquisition, is just nauseating to an open source enthusiast. They will
never open-source their Operating System, or their Office package, and
they will continue to clone and acquire, until there is nothing left
except patents and lawsuits.

Instead of becoming a hamster in their wheel, I'd love to find some Java
developers and Linux system administrators that have morals and
ambition. That's all I'm saying :)

Pavel
 
S

Steven J. Sobol

I assume that the huge staff that IBM and Sun assign to projects like
NetBeans, Eclipse and Apache earn the same salary as those assigned to
their in-house projects.

NetBeans and Eclipse both make money for their publishers, don't they?

There are open-source version available, and then there are closed-
source products that you pay for, that are based on the OSS products.
at Eclipse. Sun offers most of their software at no cost and has, or
is the process of, open sourcing it. Even Microsoft has capitulated.
They spent millions offering a free alternative to Netscape, they have
free versions of all their development and database software and have
even announced a cooperative deal with JBoss.

Really!

Wow.

I thought their release of the Visual Studio Express Editions as free
(closed source, but $0.00 cost) software was cool, but they're working with
JBoss? They've spent the past half-dozen years stealing ideas from J2EE
for .Net. :D
 
S

Steven J. Sobol

Pavel wrote: said:
Sun is by far the least offensive because of Java and their intention to
finally release Java as open source. But some of the things they do are
bewildering... like creating Sun Java Studio Creator and Sun Java Studio
Enterprise, but showing only the JDK Bundle with NetBeans upfront. I'm
happy that they're now offering Creator and Enterprise for free to
members, but why not just make one killer IDE and charge for training,
support, and conferences?


The "offer the software for free, charge for support and training" model
has worked quite well for some companies, but to switch wholesale to that
business model would, IMHO, not work well for Sun. They just have too
many years behind them doing business they way they always have.
 
D

David Segall

Pavel said:
Let's hope not. There's still a lot more that can be done.
Of course there is a lot more work to be done in producing free
software and I hope you prosper doing it. I was simply commenting that
it was too late to "shake things up a little bit" or "start a new
campaign"
Any row limits? Are they 100% Customizable?
The database majors have always had a layered pricing model. I am
arguing that the open source movement has won because the bottom layer
price has dropped by thousands of dollars to zero.
Have you been turning back
the clock for any trial-period software lately?
No need. I'm a developer and an early indication of the open source
victory was being offered the full versions of DB2 and Oracle at no
cost. They did not want me developing using PostgreSQL in case I
deployed PostgreSQL.
Microsoft will
support any effort that keeps their products relevant, and they only
embrace open source when it seems like a good idea.
That was my point. I don't doubt that Oracle and Sun also resented
losing to the open source movement but the abundance of free and even
open source software from the industry heavyweights indicates that
your proposed crusade is unnecessary.
 
D

David Segall

Pavel said:
But some of the things they do are
bewildering... like creating Sun Java Studio Creator and Sun Java Studio
Enterprise, but showing only the JDK Bundle with NetBeans upfront. I'm
happy that they're now offering Creator and Enterprise for free to
members, but why not just make one killer IDE
They have announced their intention to do exactly that. Most of Java
Studio seems to be in the next release of NetBeans. I have been
eagerly visiting the NetBeans Creator web page
<http://www.netbeans.org/products/creator/> but it remains blank :(

The two products you mention are relics of the days when Sun imagined
they could make money selling software.
 
P

Pavel

NetBeans and Eclipse both make money for their publishers, don't they?
There are open-source version available, and then there are closed-
source products that you pay for, that are based on the OSS products.

Good point.
Really!

Wow.

I thought their release of the Visual Studio Express Editions as free
(closed source, but $0.00 cost) software was cool, but they're working with
JBoss? They've spent the past half-dozen years stealing ideas from J2EE
for .Net. :D

Ha... True story : Having never programmed in .Net, I was still able to
direct a MCSD how to write a class... because C# is really just the
biggest rip off of Java I've ever seen. :) Just another reason for a
revolution against MS. I hope I live to see it.
 
F

frankgerlach

Well, the Open Source ideology of Richard Stallmann et al is pretty
much an extreme Ideology such as Socialism. There was a time when
virtually the whole world turned to socialism: Russia, China, India and
a lot of other countries. So many people believed the crap theory that
Socialism is the "destination" of history (just as the crap scientiest
Karl Marx predicted it). IMHO the same is with open source: a lot of
systems are going open source and many people think this is the future
of software in general. Well, I am using Linux, MySQL, Java and PHP,
but I know about the limits of that software. Linux is still not
administerable by the laymen, while Windows is a piece of easy-to use
software. MySQL is amazingly fast for small-scale applications, but it
can become very slow if you do some heavy duty work (big result sets,
complex (sub-)queries). And all of those "open-source" companies CHARGE
for support or commercial use. RedHat, Novell/SuSe, MySQL, Zend and SUN
all have to fund the paychecks of their employees. If you buy a RedHat
support contract for your company, it can easily become as expensive as
MS server licencenses... Also, IBM, SUN and HP are making a lot of
money with hardware and at least IBM a lot with software (WebSphere).
Also, why at all would you open-source ideologists be willing to pay
for hardware ? Why not having a Ministry Of Planning that gives away
hardware for free (for those few who can justify a need for that :)).
Just tell me about the software written by the GDR or the soviet union.
Effectively NIL, they just stole IBM and Digital Equipment software and
run it on their IBM/Digital clones. Socialism does not work; not even
for software.
 
D

David Segall

Pavel said:
Just another reason for a
revolution against MS. I hope I live to see it.
To my great surprise, I have lived to see the revolution against IBM
that I hoped for when I started programming. Microsoft seems worse!

The slogan used to be "You can't get fired for buying IBM". That now
applies to Microsoft but, in addition, there is the McDonalds factor.
Consumers, particularly those in the United states, want consistency
and will not only pay more for it they will ignore superior quality
products to get it. They know there are better, cheaper hotels than
the Holiday Inn but will stay there because it is the safe choice.

I don't see how you can turn open source software into the "safe
choice" without destroying all the qualities of it that you, rightly,
admire.
 
F

frankgerlach

David said:
To my great surprise, I have lived to see the revolution against IBM
that I hoped for when I started programming. Microsoft seems worse!
Maybe the (current) revolution is the Internet. Google is already
causing great pains for MS. MS is basically strong in PC applications,
and I doubt anybody will endanger that business. Just like IBM still
dominates the mainframe business, MS will still be the king of the
desktop. But the desktop will soon be just a slowly-innovating field,
while all kinds of internet applications pop up here and there. MS has
MSN, but who cares about that ? The kings of the new world are Ebay,
Amazon, Google and Skype. MS tries to catch up (as they have done with
Internet Explorer), but I doubt that they can do very much. MS folks
are already starting to get old; they just don't have the
entrepreneurial spirit of a 25 year-old, such as the google founders. I
guess Bill Gates' retirement will mean the long-term demise of the
company. Do you really believe a 50-year old man like Ballmer or Ray
Ozzie will be the leader of a businesses revolution ? MS will stay the
king of client operating systems and word processors. But who really
cares about word processors in 2006 ?
 

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