averages

[Mark L Pappin]

I like putting meaningful names on functions and parameters, but in
what sense do the proposed functions perform a moving average?

It was squeezed from Bill elsethread, as every detail needs to be.

If you understand the data,

Bill seldom indicates that he does; usually that he does not.

figuring out the associated processing is usually easy.

For anyone but Bill.

He's been doing this for years, apparently: vaguely specify what he
wants to do, usually in terms of a couple of language features he
"thinks" will be necessary to do it, and then supply half an answer to
each followup requesting clarification until he starts the cycle again
with a different vague specification. (Note how at no point does he
produce code that implements his spec, or even use what's given to
him.) You know I'm a patient person, Thad, but even I have limits and
Bill managed to hit them about a week after I started my ill-fated
hand-holding expedition with him here.

Just say killfile.

mlp

 

[Tim Harig]

Some years ago, it was indicated by Bill that he has mental health
problems which manifest themselves in terms of memory loss, difficulty
grasping concepts, etc.

That Bill has mental issues is apparent to everybody (it has been mentioned
several times in these two threads [averages and averages2]). The question
is whether those issues are due to intellectual deficiency or simply
behavioral.

I have not been able to find the origional post where Bill indicated the
exact conditions of his supposed illness; though, I have found several
references to it in the usual usenet archives. Most of these references
point to 'short-term' memory problems. I have already commented on the
inconsistancy of his behavior with the observed symptoms of those with
diagnosed 'short-term' memory issues in a sub-thread of averages 2.
Indeed, Bill responded that his memory is good short of three days which
was plenty to keep up with these threads that were less then tree days
apart (and archived if not still on his news server).

The problem has not really been with Bill's memory or comprehension. The
problem has been that Bill is given good suggestions (often with working
code) and then simply dismisses them. When it became almost impossible
mis-comprehend the thread -- Bill just moved to another one where he could
hopefully entice more people into the fray.

The fact that he seems to have been using this behavior for years indicates
that he has had plenty of time, even with memory issues, to progress
beyond the basic level of calculating an average (even a moving average)
and making decent programming decisions. In programming classes that I
have given, calculating an average is one of the first problems that I
assign. Using programming decisions like passing control information as
the first element of an array rather the passing it explicitly, is I style
decision that would mark down even in the code of beginners.

Therefore, if has not been able to figure out one of the most basic
problems in C after years of study, then I would question whether C (or
programming in general) is beyond him.

The fact that he keeps trying and deliberately disregards all suggestions
given to him, along with the fact that he still hasn't produced anything
beyond a really lousy function prototype that most beginners would dismiss
as bad style even after he has been presented with working code examples,
makes me question that his intellect might not be the real problem.

Maybe his problem is simply behavioral.

Don't feed the trolls.

 

[Richard Bos]

Some years ago, it was indicated by Bill that he has mental health
problems which manifest themselves in terms of memory loss, difficulty
grasping concepts, etc.

That may or may not be true, but in any case he is doing the best he can
_not_ to help himself. The way he is trying to learn would be wrong even
if he didn't have any other problems, _and he's been told so_.
Repeatedly. But he refuses to take any kind of advise.
I'm potentially sorry, but if you have mental health problems _and_ you
refuse to follow good advise, then the former is not your greatest
problem.

Richard

 

[Default User]

Tim Harig wrote:

The fact that he seems to have been using this behavior for years
indicates that he has had plenty of time, even with memory issues, to
progress beyond the basic level of calculating an average (even a
moving average) and making decent programming decisions.

I believe, but can't really demonstrate, that Bill's purported C
knowledge level was greater ten years or so back when he first started
posting. Unfortunately, Google Groups search is so broken these days
that I can't find any of those older messages to check my memory.

Don't feed the trolls.

That was the conclusion I came to. Others feel differently.




Brian

 

[Kaz Kylheku]

Some years ago, it was indicated by Bill that he has mental health
problems which manifest themselves in terms of memory loss, difficulty
grasping concepts, etc.

That Bill has mental issues is apparent to everybody (it has been mentioned
several times in these two threads [averages and averages2]). The question
is whether those issues are due to intellectual deficiency or simply
behavioral.

I have not been able to find the origional post where Bill indicated the
exact conditions of his supposed illness; though, I have found several
references to it in the usual usenet archives. Most of these references
point to 'short-term' memory problems.

Short term memory problems could result in repetitive behavior. In order to
make a resolution to change your behavior, you require memory. If tomorrow you
don't remember that you made a resolution, then you can't possibly keep it.

The problem has not really been with Bill's memory or comprehension. The
problem has been that Bill is given good suggestions (often with working
code) and then simply dismisses them. When it became almost impossible
mis-comprehend the thread -- Bill just moved to another one where he could
hopefully entice more people into the fray.

Even if Bill realizes that this behavior is counterproductive and makes
a resolution to change it, he will forget it in a few days (supposedly).

The fact that he seems to have been using this behavior for years indicates
that he has had plenty of time, even with memory issues, to progress
beyond the basic level of calculating an average (even a moving average)
and making decent programming decisions.

Not really. If his memory disappears after three days, then, in spite of the
passage of years, he has only retained the last three days. The last five or
ten years essentially didn't happen at all.

If he were to understand everything from all those years, it would have to be
condensed into three days worth of reading, in a way that he can understand in
three days. By which time, he would be forgetting the beginning of it already.

In the software field, a good memory is of tremendous value, and one that we
easily take for granted when we have it.

Maybe his problem is simply behavioral.

I don't think you can cleanly separate cognitive and behavioral/psychological
issues.

Don't feed the trolls.

Though Bill might not be a troll, the waste of time is the same.

Where is the satifaction in instructing someone, if it evaporates in several
days?

 

[Doug Miller]

.... just FYI, it is often the case that a sufferer is in fact unable to
follow good advice precisely because of the nature of their illness.
Consider that its good advice not to bleed profusely, yet someone with
thrombocytopenia can't help it.

This can be a hard concept to grasp, for those who have no personal experience
with such illnesses. I have two close relatives who have struggled for years
with depression. They can't "just snap out of it" as some well-intentioned but
grossly uninformed people have told them to do.

And if you have severe memory loss issues....

On the other hand, as applies to Bill specifically, this entire exchange, and
the many which have preceded it, take place solely through the medium of the
written word -- the entire purpose of which is to obviate the *need* to
remember. One would expect that a person who *knows* he has memory issues
might at least make an effort to peruse the written history of the many
responses he has received in the past.

 

[Ben Bacarisse]

Though Bill might not be a troll, the waste of time is the same.

Where is the satifaction in instructing someone, if it evaporates in several
days?

 

[Tim Harig]

Some years ago, it was indicated by Bill that he has mental health
problems which manifest themselves in terms of memory loss, difficulty
grasping concepts, etc.

That Bill has mental issues is apparent to everybody (it has been mentioned
several times in these two threads [averages and averages2]). The question
is whether those issues are due to intellectual deficiency or simply
behavioral.
I have not been able to find the origional post where Bill indicated the
exact conditions of his supposed illness; though, I have found several
references to it in the usual usenet archives. Most of these references
point to 'short-term' memory problems.

Short term memory problems could result in repetitive behavior. In order to
make a resolution to change your behavior, you require memory. If tomorrow you
don't remember that you made a resolution, then you can't possibly keep it.

Presumably, if his disorder is that problematic, then:

1. He probably is receiving some kind of assitance for it.

2. He isn't likely to be in a position, such as a programming job,
where memory is extremely important to doing his job.

Not really. If his memory disappears after three days, then, in spite of the
passage of years, he has only retained the last three days. The last five or
ten years essentially didn't happen at all.

Memory and learning have been proven to be separate. People left with
no long term or short term memory after head injuries can learn to do
tasks more effectively even though they may not remember that they did the
task before.

This is not to say that he may not have other problems *including* a memory
issue; but, it indicates that he does not have a memory issue alone.

If he were to understand everything from all those years, it would have to be
condensed into three days worth of reading, in a way that he can understand in
three days. By which time, he would be forgetting the beginning of it already.

If you look at the other thread "averages 2" that he started, the poor
quality code that he posted was not a memory problem -- it was a
judgemental error. He had all the elements necessary to do the task
displayed, proving the he know the syntax; yet, he chose an extremely poor
style of coding. Thats not a memory error.

In the software field, a good memory is of tremendous value, and one that we
easily take for granted when we have it.

Appsolutely and if his problems are that severe then he is in way over his
head and he doesn't need to be programming -- especially in C. If what he
has posted is representative of his ability; then, he will never be able to
program anything beyond the merely trivial.

I don't think you can cleanly separate cognitive and behavioral/psychological
issues.

I don't doubt that he may have issues. I do point out that memory issues
tend to have very specific symptoms which tend to be very distinct from
behavioral issues. I have already stated elsewhere that other issues are
far more difficult to distinguish. It may be that he also has memory
issues to go along with the rest; but, memory issues alone cannot account
for his behaviors.

Though Bill might not be a troll, the waste of time is the same.
Where is the satifaction in instructing someone, if it evaporates in several
days?

This is the heart of the matter. If his problems are as severe as he
indicates (whether caused by memory or other problems) and as the lack
of understanding of the simplest of programming concepts suggests; then,
he needs to seek professional help (read: "not help from usenet").

Whatever the problems, I don't see any point in encouraging bad behavior by
coddling him.

 

[Bill Cunningham]

Some years ago, it was indicated by Bill that he has mental health
problems which manifest themselves in terms of memory loss, difficulty
grasping concepts, etc.

I frequently go to a restauraunt and decided I wanted to refill my soda.
So I got up and entered the restroom. Upon realizing this was not where I
was to fill my drink I went up front to get a refill. I have also given up
driving as I will drive around racking my brain trying to figure out how to
get where I'm going. I have lived in this town my whole life. Such is the
effect of klonopin on me.

Bill

 

[Bill Cunningham]

On 2009-07-05, Mark McIntyre <[email protected]> wrote:

The problem has not really been with Bill's memory or comprehension.

Oh really Doc?

The

problem has been that Bill is given good suggestions (often with working
code) and then simply dismisses them.

Too many suggestions at times. Not always good. I can't follow 5
people's 5 different opinions. Usenet is not a good place to learn C but get
*specific* help with issuses. SPECIFIC ISSUSES. When it became almost
impossible

mis-comprehend the thread -- Bill just moved to another one where he could
hopefully entice more people into the fray.

The less people who respond the better.

 

[Tim Harig]

driving as I will drive around racking my brain trying to figure out how to
get where I'm going. I have lived in this town my whole life. Such is the
effect of klonopin on me.

That being the case, maybe, programming is not such a good occupation for
you.

 

[Bill Cunningham]

Presumably, if his disorder is that problematic, then:

1. He probably is receiving some kind of assitance for it.

US social security disability

2. He isn't likely to be in a position, such as a programming job,
where memory is extremely important to doing his job.

I what to learn to prgram. I mastered basic. In time I will C. With or
without help.

IQ is 100

Diagnosed with clinical major depression.

Memory and learning have been proven to be separate. People left with
no long term or short term memory after head injuries can learn to do
tasks more effectively even though they may not remember that they did the
task before.

This is not to say that he may not have other problems *including* a
memory
issue; but, it indicates that he does not have a memory issue alone.


If you look at the other thread "averages 2" that he started, the poor
quality code that he posted was not a memory problem -- it was a
judgemental error. He had all the elements necessary to do the task
displayed, proving the he know the syntax; yet, he chose an extremely poor
style of coding. Thats not a memory error.

I like KandR Coding style.

Appsolutely and if his problems are that severe then he is in way over his
head and he doesn't need to be programming -- especially in C. If what he
has posted is representative of his ability; then, he will never be able
to
program anything beyond the merely trivial.


I don't doubt that he may have issues. I do point out that memory issues
tend to have very specific symptoms which tend to be very distinct from
behavioral issues. I have already stated elsewhere that other issues are
far more difficult to distinguish. It may be that he also has memory
issues to go along with the rest; but, memory issues alone cannot account
for his behaviors.

The biggest fear in life to all on clc. Except me seems to be if someone
is a troll. 3/5 your will be called a troll. 2/5 of the time tolerated. The
G8 summit's major concern? Who on usenet and clc is a troll.

<snicker>

Bill

 

[Tim Harig]

Too many suggestions at times. Not always good. I can't follow 5
people's 5 different opinions. Usenet is not a good place to learn C but get
*specific* help with issuses. SPECIFIC ISSUSES. When it became almost
impossible
The less people who respond the better.

1. With you, because your code is so terrible to begin with, there doesn't
ever seem to be a single SPECIFIC issue.

2. Usenet is a free forum. When asking questions you get what people
are kind enough to volunteer.

3. Given your disability, it would seem that programming is not a very
productive vocation for you.

4. Given the above, should you decide that you really want to spend the
rest of your life making trivial pieces of C code, perhaps you
would be more comfortable finding a tutor that could cater to your
specific needs.

 

[Tim Harig]

I like KandR Coding style.

Trying to subvertly pass an argument as the first element of an array is
*not* KandR style.

 

[Bill C[unningham]]

That being the case, maybe, programming is not such a good occupation for
you.

I don't really want to persue it as a career. I have been on .5 mg of
klonopin before and the change is pretty substantial. Now I take 1mg ter in
die. My IQ is great and I seem to be smart but terribly confused. I walk in
a trance. I don't know if this will subside so much later on if I can drop
the dosage or not.

Bill

 

[Bill C[unningham]]

Trying to subvertly pass an argument as the first element of an array is
*not* KandR style.

I'm not quite sure of what bad coding means then. I prefer this for
example.

double x=strtod
double y=strtod

I get advice saying that's improper style. I an not a professional and
don't know enough about C to use ? and : but I do know +=. People will argue
that I should use.

double x,y;
x=strtod
y=strtod

Or += instead of sum+sum=figure.

These things seem trivial to me so I do it the way I want and someone isn't
happy. That's my understanding of this.

Bill

 

[Mark L Pappin]

I don't really want to persue it as a career.

I'm sure Tim means "occupation" in the sense "activity occupying
time", not "career".

You're not making enough progress to justify it even as a casual
hobby.

You blatantly ignore explicit instructions to answer specific
questions about your aims with a given piece of code, or to correct
specific problems with a given piece of code. You make no progress.

Trying to help you was intellectually stimulating for the first couple
of days, but once I saw that your behaviour didn't change even after
you agreed to try to concentrate on just the tutorial examples I
posted for you, it stopped being a rewarding experience for me so I
gave up - I'm not into sadistic necrophiliac bestiality.

I have been on .5 mg of klonopin before and the change is pretty
substantial. Now I take 1mg ter in die.

The issue of what drugs you may or may not be taking is between you
and your doctor. It's a human version of the "as-if" rule: if you
behave as if you're a troll, it doesn't matter if you're on drugs or
not; ditto behaving as a rational human with good programming skills.
We don't know or care what drugs Dennis, Dan, Kaz, Lawrence*, Keith,
Eric, Richard*, Mark*, Han, or Antoninus are on - their apparent
behaviour here defines them, as far as we're concerned.

My IQ is great

If it's 100, as you stated in another poorly-snipped response
elsethread, then it's most definitely NOT great - it's average by
definition, and a more accurate statement might be "My IQ is OK"

and I seem to be smart but terribly confused.

No you don't, and yes you do.

I promised myself I wouldn't read any more of your postings. Now I'll
try a second time to keep that promise.

mlp

* not a footnote marker - a wildcard

 

[Chris M. Thomasson]

I frequently go to a restauraunt and decided I wanted to refill my
soda. So I got up and entered the restroom. Upon realizing this was not
where I was to fill my drink I went up front to get a refill. I have also
given up driving as I will drive around racking my brain trying to figure
out how to get where I'm going. I have lived in this town my whole life.
Such is the effect of klonopin on me.

It sounds like that particular drug is working out for you perfectly...
Please don't drive on that shi%! Talk to your doctor; perhaps a session or
two of insulin coma therapy might work.

BTW, do you abuse your sedatives?

 

[Bill Cunningham]

BTW, do you abuse your sedatives?

I take 1 mg 3x a day. And it keeps me from drawing up and freaking out.
Now I have diabetes militus and high BP too.

The way to get off this class IV drug is very slowly titrating down the
dosage.

Bill

 

[Nick Keighley]

news:[email protected]...

Bill claims to write K&R C. This usually refers to the first edition
of K&R C. Pre the ANSI standard.

You don't write C in this style you write a bad mix
of C89 (so-called ANSI) and C99. Your layout is often bad
as well.

it is just bad design

    I'm not quite sure of what bad coding means then. I prefer this for
example.

double x=strtod
double y=strtod

that's a syntax error in all versions of C.

double x = strtod (strptr, NULL);

    I get advice saying that's improper style. I an not a professional and
don't know enough about C to use ? and : but I do know +=. People will argue
that I should use.

double x,y;
x=strtod
y=strtod

again a syntax error. C89 doesn't allow the first version.
C99 does. Nothing to do with K&R C.

Or += instead of sum+sum=figure.

that's *another* syntax error. You meant
sum += figure;
instead of
sum = sum + figure;

The += version is shorter. If sum is a complex expression then
it may save evaluating something twice. I wouldn't fail
code in review for failing to use +=

These things seem trivial to me so I do it the way I want and someone isn't
happy. That's my understanding of this.

to an extent true. but why ask advice if you take it?