create a TAB ?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by don, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. don

    don Guest

    Although I've seen several referances online as to how to display a tab
    using these special character codes:

    neither has worked for me.

    Is there a quick way to tab over in a web page other than typing   5
    or 8 tiimes!
    don, Jan 28, 2010
    #1
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  2. don

    dorayme Guest

    In article <hjr86m$ne$>,
    "don" <> wrote:

    > Although I've seen several referances online as to how to display a tab
    > using these special character codes:
    >
    > neither has worked for me.
    >
    > Is there a quick way to tab over in a web page other than typing &nbsp; 5
    > or 8 tiimes!
    >
    >


    <p style="white-space: pre-wrap">You are clutching at every
    possible straw you can to avoid the perfectly reasonable
    idea that science is just common reasoning gone more self
    conscious and exact and organised. You imagine that in this
    process there is some well defined thing called The Scientific
    Method. But this is a simplistic chimera of yours and   a product
    of naive thinking at every turn.</p>

    But watch out for the space not seeming to appear for *some*
    browser widths/font-sizes under pressure of wrap. Just tap the
    space bar the number of times you want the space between "to" and
    "avoid" or the tab key.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Jan 28, 2010
    #2
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  3. dorayme wrote:

    > In article <hjr86m$ne$>,
    > "don" <> wrote:
    >
    >> Although I've seen several referances online as to how to display a
    >> tab using these special character codes:
    >>
    >> neither has worked for me.


    "Don" has been reading poor referances. I would recommend reliable
    references instead. According to them, the TAB character is equivalent to a
    space in HTML, except in a few exceptional contexts.

    >> Is there a quick way to tab over in a web page other than typing
    >> &nbsp; 5 or 8 tiimes!

    >
    > <p style="white-space: pre-wrap">


    The question is obscure, but it didn't quite deserve such a wrong answer.

    The question that should have been asked is, most probably, "how do I
    present tabular data in HTML?", and the correct answer is "using a <table>
    element".

    > But watch out for the space not seeming to appear for *some*
    > browser widths/font-sizes under pressure of wrap. Just tap the
    > space bar the number of times you want the space between "to" and
    > "avoid" or the tab key.


    Sense that does not make.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 29, 2010
    #3
  4. don

    dorayme Guest

    In article <gzF8n.70678$>,
    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    >
    > > In article <hjr86m$ne$>,
    > > "don" <> wrote:

    ....
    > >> Is there a quick way to tab over in a web page other than typing
    > >> &nbsp; 5 or 8 tiimes!

    > >
    > > <p style="white-space: pre-wrap">

    >
    > The question is obscure, but it didn't quite deserve such a wrong answer.
    >


    I was imagining a specific thing he wanted in the typing of some
    text in a paragraph, namely how to make space bar spaces or tab
    bar spaces show up. The idea being that "don" would respond and
    say that is what he wanted and either explain why[*] and further
    clarify his question. Or leave it a mystery.


    > The question that should have been asked is, most probably, "how do I
    > present tabular data in HTML?", and the correct answer is "using a <table>
    > element".
    >


    Honest, had he asked this, I would have guessed the answer! <g>


    > > But watch out for the space not seeming to appear for *some*
    > > browser widths/font-sizes under pressure of wrap. Just tap the
    > > space bar the number of times you want the space between "to" and
    > > "avoid" or the tab key.

    >
    > Sense that does not make.


    OK, seems one or the other or both of my sentences are not clear.

    If you type a paragraph, the prewrap element retains the spaces
    but allows the text to wrap. If "don" wanted these spaces to
    appear, they will for the most part. But for some browser widths,
    the spaces might not be manifest if they occur just before the
    wrap.

    In the text I provided,

    "<p style="white-space: pre-wrap">You are clutching at every
    possible straw you can to avoid the perfectly reasonable idea
    that science is just common reasoning gone more self conscious
    and exact and organised. You imagine that in this process there
    is some well defined thing called The Scientific Method. But this
    is a simplistic chimera of yours and   a product of naive
    thinking at every turn.</p>"

    in the first paragraph, there is a word "to" followed by the word
    "avoid" which was an example of where there might be some unusual
    space. I forget if I gave a URL or simply offered the above in
    the body of my post. Perhaps the space is lost in usenet space?
    (not sure if the pun is intended? <g>)

    -----
    * Spaces in para text might be a secret code for spies that
    conduct business over the internet... I will use this in my next
    crime thriller.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Jan 29, 2010
    #4
  5. don

    don Guest

    I tried your <pre wrap> tab but it did not seem to do anything...........

    "dorayme" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <gzF8n.70678$>,
    > "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    >
    >> dorayme wrote:
    >>
    >> > In article <hjr86m$ne$>,
    >> > "don" <> wrote:

    > ...
    >> >> Is there a quick way to tab over in a web page other than typing
    >> >> &nbsp; 5 or 8 tiimes!
    >> >
    >> > <p style="white-space: pre-wrap">

    >>
    >> The question is obscure, but it didn't quite deserve such a wrong answer.
    >>

    >
    > I was imagining a specific thing he wanted in the typing of some
    > text in a paragraph, namely how to make space bar spaces or tab
    > bar spaces show up. The idea being that "don" would respond and
    > say that is what he wanted and either explain why[*] and further
    > clarify his question. Or leave it a mystery.
    >
    >
    >> The question that should have been asked is, most probably, "how do I
    >> present tabular data in HTML?", and the correct answer is "using a
    >> <table>
    >> element".
    >>

    >
    > Honest, had he asked this, I would have guessed the answer! <g>
    >
    >
    >> > But watch out for the space not seeming to appear for *some*
    >> > browser widths/font-sizes under pressure of wrap. Just tap the
    >> > space bar the number of times you want the space between "to" and
    >> > "avoid" or the tab key.

    >>
    >> Sense that does not make.

    >
    > OK, seems one or the other or both of my sentences are not clear.
    >
    > If you type a paragraph, the prewrap element retains the spaces
    > but allows the text to wrap. If "don" wanted these spaces to
    > appear, they will for the most part. But for some browser widths,
    > the spaces might not be manifest if they occur just before the
    > wrap.
    >
    > In the text I provided,
    >
    > "<p style="white-space: pre-wrap">You are clutching at every
    > possible straw you can to avoid the perfectly reasonable idea
    > that science is just common reasoning gone more self conscious
    > and exact and organised. You imagine that in this process there
    > is some well defined thing called The Scientific Method. But this
    > is a simplistic chimera of yours and a product of naive
    > thinking at every turn.</p>"
    >
    > in the first paragraph, there is a word "to" followed by the word
    > "avoid" which was an example of where there might be some unusual
    > space. I forget if I gave a URL or simply offered the above in
    > the body of my post. Perhaps the space is lost in usenet space?
    > (not sure if the pun is intended? <g>)
    >
    > -----
    > * Spaces in para text might be a secret code for spies that
    > conduct business over the internet... I will use this in my next
    > crime thriller.
    >
    > --
    > dorayme
    don, Jan 29, 2010
    #5
  6. don

    dorayme Guest

    In article <hjvgnk$ed5$>,
    "don" <> wrote:

    > I tried your <pre wrap> tab but it did not seem to do anything...........


    Are you saying that the spaces do not appear in a browser that
    loads:

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
    charset=utf-8">
    <title>test page</title>
    </head>
    <body>
    <p style="white-space: pre-wrap">You are clutching at every
    possible straw you can to avoid the perfectly
    reasonable idea that science is just common reasoning gone more
    self conscious and exact and organised. You imagine that in this
    process there is some well defined thing called The Scientific
    Method. But this is a simplistic chimera of yours and   a product
    of naive thinking at every turn.</p>
    </body>
    </html>

    ?

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Jan 29, 2010
    #6
  7. dorayme wrote:

    > I was imagining a specific thing he wanted in the typing of some
    > text in a paragraph, namely how to make space bar spaces or tab
    > bar spaces show up.


    What an odd idea. Why would text in paragraphs need such features or benefit
    from them?

    > The idea being that "don" would respond and
    > say that is what he wanted and either explain why[*] and further
    > clarify his question.


    How would that be the idea? You make some unspecified assumption on what the
    OP really wants. Why would he know whether your assumption is correct?

    >> The question that should have been asked is, most probably, "how do I
    >> present tabular data in HTML?", and the correct answer is "using a
    >> <table> element".

    >
    > Honest, had he asked this, I would have guessed the answer! <g>


    He asked it; he just did not know how to express it.

    > OK, seems one or the other or both of my sentences are not clear.


    Granted.

    > If you type a paragraph, the prewrap element


    Stop right there. There is no prewrap element, and you know that.

    > retains the spaces
    > but allows the text to wrap.


    Well, if you mean the CSS declaration white-space: pre-wrap, then the first
    question is why you recommend that, instead of white-space: pre, which has
    much better support, or the HTML <pre> element, which has universal support.
    There was no reference to any wrapping in the question.

    > Perhaps the space is lost in usenet space?


    Quite possibly. But more importantly, the unreliable CSS technique does not
    help much. You would still need to count your spaces. Why would that be
    essentially easier than typing no-break spaces? They're simple characters,
    and you can enter them as such, instead of the clumsy &nbsp; entity
    reference. For example, using the modern standard Finnish keyboard, designed
    for ease typing of all European languages written in Latin letters and more,
    you would simply use AltGr+space. It's not particularly difficult to keep
    AltGr pressed down, at least if you can use both hands.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 29, 2010
    #7
  8. don

    dorayme Guest

    In article <pxI8n.70830$>,
    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    >
    > > I was imagining a specific thing he wanted in the typing of some
    > > text in a paragraph, namely how to make space bar spaces or tab
    > > bar spaces show up.

    >
    > What an odd idea. Why would text in paragraphs need such features or benefit
    > from them?
    >


    Who knows?

    > > The idea being that "don" would respond and
    > > say that is what he wanted and either explain why[*] and further
    > > clarify his question.

    >
    > How would that be the idea? You make some unspecified assumption on what the
    > OP really wants. Why would he know whether your assumption is correct?
    >


    I gave him an example. He can clarify.

    > >> The question that should have been asked is, most probably, "how do I
    > >> present tabular data in HTML?", and the correct answer is "using a
    > >> <table> element".

    > >
    > > Honest, had he asked this, I would have guessed the answer! <g>

    >
    > He asked it; he just did not know how to express it.
    >


    Well, if that is perfectly right, then so be it. Perhaps he will
    or has clarified it. Perhaps it is simply obvious to others.
    Perhaps I just saw his question in a peculiar way at the time.

    ....
    >
    > Stop right there.


    I'd rather you did not. <g>

    >There is no prewrap element, and you know that.
    >


    > > retains the spaces
    > > but allows the text to wrap.

    >
    > ...white-space: pre-wrap, then the first
    > question is why you recommend that, instead of white-space: pre, which has
    > much better support, or the HTML <pre> element, which has universal support.
    > There was no reference to any wrapping in the question.
    >


    As for there being no reference to wrapping in the question, I
    figured that if someone did want some white space to show, it
    might not be at the expense of losing wrapping. That is what I
    figured and perhaps it should be seen as an invitation to discuss
    the matter further...

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Jan 29, 2010
    #8
  9. don wrote:
    > Although I've seen several referances online as to how to display a tab


    That would be a neat trick, since a tab is a non-displaying character.


    > using these special character codes:
    >
    > neither has worked for me.


    Assuming you mean, how would you create the alignment effect associated
    with tabs, I don't see how that could work since HTML doesn't define tab
    *stops*--the positions on the horizontal line to which each press of the
    Tab key is supposed to move the insertion point.
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 1, 2010
    #9
  10. Ben C wrote:
    > On 2010-02-01, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >> don wrote:
    >>> Although I've seen several referances online as to how to display a tab

    >> That would be a neat trick, since a tab is a non-displaying character.
    >>
    >>
    >>> using these special character codes:
    >>>
    >>> neither has worked for me.

    >> Assuming you mean, how would you create the alignment effect associated
    >> with tabs, I don't see how that could work since HTML doesn't define tab
    >> *stops*--the positions on the horizontal line to which each press of the
    >> Tab key is supposed to move the insertion point.

    >
    > Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    > that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >
    > Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >
    > 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    > the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    > occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    > (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    > content edge.

    Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML one.
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 1, 2010
    #10
  11. don

    Doug Miller Guest

    In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >Ben C wrote:
    >>
    >> Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    >> that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >>
    >> Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >>
    >> 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    >> the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    >> occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    >> (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    >> content edge.

    >Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML one.


    No, it's not. It's an HTML feature; example follows:

    <html>
    <head>
    </head>
    <body>
    <pre>
    text+tab text+tab text+2 tabs more text
    </pre>
    </body>
    </html>

    Copy and paste; replace the white space with tabs in the obvious places, and
    display in the browser of your choice.
    Doug Miller, Feb 1, 2010
    #11
  12. Doug Miller wrote:
    > In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >> Ben C wrote:
    >>> Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    >>> that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >>>
    >>> Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >>>
    >>> 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    >>> the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    >>> occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    >>> (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    >>> content edge.

    >> Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML one.

    >
    > No, it's not. It's an HTML feature; example follows:


    A feature whose definition comes from CSS 2.1 is a CSS feature, not an
    HTML feature.

    >
    > <html>
    > <head>
    > </head>
    > <body>
    > <pre>
    > text+tab text+tab text+2 tabs more text
    > </pre>
    > </body>
    > </html>
    >
    > Copy and paste; replace the white space with tabs in the obvious places, and
    > display in the browser of your choice.


    A standards-based browser that supports CSS will implement the features
    provided by CSS as well as the features provided by HTML. A CSS feature
    doesn't become an HTML feature thereby.
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 2, 2010
    #12
  13. don

    Doug Miller Guest

    In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >Doug Miller wrote:
    >> In article <>, Harlan Messinger

    > <> wrote:
    >>> Ben C wrote:
    >>>> Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    >>>> that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >>>>
    >>>> Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >>>>
    >>>> 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    >>>> the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    >>>> occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    >>>> (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    >>>> content edge.
    >>> Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML one.

    >>
    >> No, it's not. It's an HTML feature; example follows:

    >
    >A feature whose definition comes from CSS 2.1 is a CSS feature, not an
    >HTML feature.


    <pre> has been around a lot longer than CSS.
    Doug Miller, Feb 2, 2010
    #13
  14. Doug Miller wrote:

    >> A feature whose definition comes from CSS 2.1 is a CSS feature, not
    >> an HTML feature.

    >
    > <pre> has been around a lot longer than CSS.


    Not an awful lot longer, but surely longer.

    On the other hand, HTML specs have always warned about relying on the use of
    TAB even within <pre>. It was never a good idea, since if you really want
    the tabbing specified in HTML specs, you can use a suitable number of
    spaces.

    And, of courses, tables have been with us for a long, and they are fairly
    suitable for presenting tabular material - which is what tabbing is usually
    about.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 2, 2010
    #14
  15. Doug Miller wrote:
    > In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>> In article <>, Harlan Messinger

    >> <> wrote:
    >>>> Ben C wrote:
    >>>>> Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    >>>>> that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >>>>>
    >>>>> 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    >>>>> the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    >>>>> occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    >>>>> (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    >>>>> content edge.
    >>>> Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML one.
    >>> No, it's not. It's an HTML feature; example follows:

    >> A feature whose definition comes from CSS 2.1 is a CSS feature, not an
    >> HTML feature.

    >
    > <pre> has been around a lot longer than CSS.


    Relevance? We were talking, and disagreeing, about tab stops, not <pre>.
    Your remark is like saying that relative positioning, which is defined
    in CSS 2.1, is an HTML feature because it can be applied to divs, and
    divs predate CSS 2.1.
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 2, 2010
    #15
  16. don

    Doug Miller Guest

    In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >Doug Miller wrote:
    >> In article <>, Harlan Messinger

    > <> wrote:
    >>> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>>> In article <>, Harlan Messinger
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>>> Ben C wrote:
    >>>>>> Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    >>>>>> that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    >>>>>> the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    >>>>>> occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    >>>>>> (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    >>>>>> content edge.
    >>>>> Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML

    > one.
    >>>> No, it's not. It's an HTML feature; example follows:
    >>> A feature whose definition comes from CSS 2.1 is a CSS feature, not an
    >>> HTML feature.

    >>
    >> <pre> has been around a lot longer than CSS.

    >
    >Relevance? We were talking, and disagreeing, about tab stops, not <pre>.
    >Your remark is like saying that relative positioning, which is defined
    >in CSS 2.1, is an HTML feature because it can be applied to divs, and
    >divs predate CSS 2.1.


    Oh, I see. Apparently you think tab stops didn't exist prior to CSS 2.1.
    Doug Miller, Feb 2, 2010
    #16
  17. Doug Miller wrote:
    > In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>> In article <>, Harlan Messinger

    >> <> wrote:
    >>>> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>>>> In article <>, Harlan Messinger
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>> Ben C wrote:
    >>>>>>> Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    >>>>>>> that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    >>>>>>> the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    >>>>>>> occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    >>>>>>> (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    >>>>>>> content edge.
    >>>>>> Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML

    >> one.
    >>>>> No, it's not. It's an HTML feature; example follows:
    >>>> A feature whose definition comes from CSS 2.1 is a CSS feature, not an
    >>>> HTML feature.
    >>> <pre> has been around a lot longer than CSS.

    >> Relevance? We were talking, and disagreeing, about tab stops, not <pre>.
    >> Your remark is like saying that relative positioning, which is defined
    >> in CSS 2.1, is an HTML feature because it can be applied to divs, and
    >> divs predate CSS 2.1.

    >
    > Oh, I see. Apparently you think tab stops didn't exist prior to CSS 2.1.


    <sigh/> I said in the first place that tab stops aren't defined in HTML,
    so OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. Then you responded by telling me
    that they were defined IN CSS 2.1 which is, by all reason either (a) an
    amplification, by which you were confirming that they weren't in HTML,
    and it was CSS that provided them, or (b) a complete non sequitur.

    If you wish to insist that they are provided by HTML, then why don't you
    show us where in the *H*T*M*L* spec they are defined, instead of where
    in the C*S*S spec they are defined? Unless they are defined in the HTML
    spec, THEY ARE NOT PART OF HTML.
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 3, 2010
    #17
  18. Ben C wrote:
    > On 2010-02-03, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>> Oh, I see. Apparently you think tab stops didn't exist prior to CSS 2.1.

    >> <sigh/> I said in the first place that tab stops aren't defined in HTML,
    >> so OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. Then you responded by telling me
    >> that they were defined IN CSS 2.1 which is, by all reason either (a) an
    >> amplification, by which you were confirming that they weren't in HTML,
    >> and it was CSS that provided them, or (b) a complete non sequitur.
    >>
    >> If you wish to insist that they are provided by HTML, then why don't you
    >> show us where in the *H*T*M*L* spec they are defined, instead of where
    >> in the C*S*S spec they are defined? Unless they are defined in the HTML
    >> spec, THEY ARE NOT PART OF HTML.

    >
    > They do get a mention in the HTML spec, in the section about PRE:
    >
    > The horizontal tab character (decimal 9 in [ISO10646] [p.353] and
    > [ISO88591] [p.354] ) is usually interpreted by visual user agents as
    > the smallest non-zero number of spaces necessary to line characters
    > up along tab stops that are every 8 characters. We strongly
    > discourage using horizontal tabs in preformatted text since it is
    > common practice, when editing, to set the tab-spacing to other
    > values, leading to misaligned documents.
    >
    > But it's less encouraging for would-be tab users than what we find in
    > the CSS spec.


    Thanks! That's all I asked for. I don't understand why Doug thought that
    citing a section of CSS 2.1 was a way to correct my (mistakenly)
    impression that tab stops weren't defined in HTML. And I agree about the
    less-than-encouraging part! Frankly, tab stops set every n characters
    are rarely of any particular use anyway. Any time you have columns of
    varying lengths--especially if they can vary by more than the number of
    spaces to which the tab stop is equivalent, tabs really give you little
    in the way of column alignment.
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 3, 2010
    #18
  19. don

    Doug Miller Guest

    In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >Ben C wrote:
    >> On 2010-02-03, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >>> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>>> Oh, I see. Apparently you think tab stops didn't exist prior to CSS 2.1.
    >>> <sigh/> I said in the first place that tab stops aren't defined in HTML,
    >>> so OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. Then you responded by telling me
    >>> that they were defined IN CSS 2.1 which is, by all reason either (a) an
    >>> amplification, by which you were confirming that they weren't in HTML,
    >>> and it was CSS that provided them, or (b) a complete non sequitur.
    >>>
    >>> If you wish to insist that they are provided by HTML, then why don't you
    >>> show us where in the *H*T*M*L* spec they are defined, instead of where
    >>> in the C*S*S spec they are defined? Unless they are defined in the HTML
    >>> spec, THEY ARE NOT PART OF HTML.

    >>
    >> They do get a mention in the HTML spec, in the section about PRE:
    >>
    >> The horizontal tab character (decimal 9 in [ISO10646] [p.353] and
    >> [ISO88591] [p.354] ) is usually interpreted by visual user agents as
    >> the smallest non-zero number of spaces necessary to line characters
    >> up along tab stops that are every 8 characters. We strongly
    >> discourage using horizontal tabs in preformatted text since it is
    >> common practice, when editing, to set the tab-spacing to other
    >> values, leading to misaligned documents.
    >>
    >> But it's less encouraging for would-be tab users than what we find in
    >> the CSS spec.

    >
    >Thanks! That's all I asked for. I don't understand why Doug thought that
    >citing a section of CSS 2.1 was a way to correct my (mistakenly)
    >impression that tab stops weren't defined in HTML.


    Ummmm.... go back and read that again. I am not the one who cited a section of
    CSS 2.1. That was someone else.
    Doug Miller, Feb 3, 2010
    #19
  20. don

    Doug Miller Guest

    In article <>, Harlan Messinger <> wrote:
    >Doug Miller wrote:
    >> In article <>, Harlan Messinger

    > <> wrote:
    >>> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>>> In article <>, Harlan Messinger
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
    >>>>>> In article <>, Harlan Messinger
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>> Ben C wrote:
    >>>>>>>> Tabs do work in <pre> etc. elements. I think it is defined somewhere
    >>>>>>>> that your tabstop is 8 columns.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Here it is (CSS 2.1 16.6.1):
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> 2. All tabs (U+0009) are rendered as a horizontal shift that lines up
    >>>>>>>> the start edge of the next glyph with the next tab stop. Tab stops
    >>>>>>>> occur at points that are mutiples of 8 times the width of a space
    >>>>>>>> (U+0020) rendered in the block's font from the block's starting
    >>>>>>>> content edge.
    >>>>>>> Ah, OK, thanks. Though, FWIW: this is a CSS feature rather than an HTML
    >>> one.
    >>>>>> No, it's not. It's an HTML feature; example follows:
    >>>>> A feature whose definition comes from CSS 2.1 is a CSS feature, not an
    >>>>> HTML feature.
    >>>> <pre> has been around a lot longer than CSS.
    >>> Relevance? We were talking, and disagreeing, about tab stops, not <pre>.
    >>> Your remark is like saying that relative positioning, which is defined
    >>> in CSS 2.1, is an HTML feature because it can be applied to divs, and
    >>> divs predate CSS 2.1.

    >>
    >> Oh, I see. Apparently you think tab stops didn't exist prior to CSS 2.1.

    >
    ><sigh/> I said in the first place that tab stops aren't defined in HTML,
    >so OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. Then you responded by telling me
    >that they were defined IN CSS 2.1


    No, I didn't. Pay attention to the attributions.
    Doug Miller, Feb 3, 2010
    #20
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