CSS vs. tables // fixed vs. variable

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Chris, Sep 17, 2006.

  1. Chris

    Chris Guest

    Hello,

    I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of tables to
    layout your pages. But why is that actually? And why is fixed width layout
    so bad?

    Thanks,

    Chris
     
    Chris, Sep 17, 2006
    #1
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  2. Chris wrote:

    > I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of
    > tables to layout your pages. But why is that actually?


    Were there reasons given where you read that? What did they say?

    Tables are for .. tabular data. A quick Google turns up a couple
    thousand times this has been discussed. Here's one:

    <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.html/browse_thread/thread/a9fa57c1f35eeac1/45bce92624068442?lnk=st&q=tables+vs+css+for+layout&rnum=7#45bce92624068442>

    Main reason: separate content from presentation.

    > And why is fixed width layout so bad?


    What is the width of my browser window?

    --
    -bts
    -Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck.
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Sep 17, 2006
    #2
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  3. Chris wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of tables to
    > layout your pages. But why is that actually? And why is fixed width layout
    > so bad?


    You're a troll, right? This has been debated and explained to death in
    this forum. Why not do a little reading? Anyway, if your make a fixed
    layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?



    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Sep 17, 2006
    #3
  4. Chris

    Chris Guest

    Jonathan N. Little wrote:

    > Chris wrote:
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of tables
    >> to layout your pages. But why is that actually? And why is fixed width
    >> layout so bad?

    >
    > You're a troll, right? This has been debated and explained to death in
    > this forum. Why not do a little reading? Anyway, if your make a fixed
    > layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    > when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?
    >
    >
    >

    Take it easy on the cofee. Herbal tea does wonders!
     
    Chris, Sep 17, 2006
    #4
  5. Chris

    Chris Guest

    Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

    > Chris wrote:
    >
    >> I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of
    >> tables to layout your pages. But why is that actually?

    >
    > Were there reasons given where you read that? What did they say?
    >

    No reasons given, that's why I wonder. Also, styling a fixed width and/or
    table layout is a lot easier. I try to use only DIV's according to the
    recommendations, but I would just like to know why I am doing all the extra
    effort.

    > Tables are for .. tabular data. A quick Google turns up a couple
    > thousand times this has been discussed. Here's one:
    >
    >

    <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.html/browse_thread/thread/a9fa57c1f35eeac1/45bce92624068442?lnk=st&q=tables+vs+css+for+layout&rnum=7#45bce92624068442>
    >
    > Main reason: separate content from presentation.
    >

    The fact that it has a couple of thousand times been discussed must show
    that it's not clear to many people. Also I see many websites still make use
    of table layouts and they don't look bad at all.

    The main reason that you state is not clear to me. If I use a table for
    layout, then to me that's part of the presentation. I can even style the
    table with CSS in my stylesheet.

    >> And why is fixed width layout so bad?

    >
    > What is the width of my browser window?
    >

    the max size of your browser window is at least 1024px
     
    Chris, Sep 17, 2006
    #5
  6. Chris wrote:

    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >
    >> Chris wrote:
    >>
    >>> I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of
    >>> tables to layout your pages. But why is that actually?

    >>
    >> Were there reasons given where you read that? What did they say?
    >>

    > No reasons given, that's why I wonder. Also, styling a fixed width
    > and/or table layout is a lot easier. I try to use only DIV's
    > according to the recommendations, but I would just like to know why I
    > am doing all the extra effort.


    Practically all of the Usenet discussions I've read on this topic always
    give reasons.

    >> Tables are for .. tabular data. A quick Google turns up a couple
    >> thousand times this has been discussed. Here's one:
    >>

    > <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.html/browse_thread/thread/a9fa57c1f35eeac1/45bce92624068442?lnk=st&q=tables+vs+css+for+layout&rnum=7#45bce92624068442>
    >>
    >> Main reason: separate content from presentation.
    >>

    > The fact that it has a couple of thousand times been discussed must show
    > that it's not clear to many people.


    Those who find this group and come and ask are new to the concept,
    that's all. Also, most do not search for past articles before asking all
    over again.

    Those of us who have eschewed tables-for-layout long ago already know
    how much easier it is.

    > Also I see many websites still make use
    > of table layouts and they don't look bad at all.


    Sure, some/many of them *look* ok ...

    > The main reason that you state is not clear to me. If I use a table for
    > layout, then to me that's part of the presentation. I can even style the
    > table with CSS in my stylesheet.


    One of the problems with tables is they are not linear. How about how
    they "display" in a speaking browser? Does it read it column by column?
    Or row by row?

    Using CSS for layout, there is a lot less code, it is much easier to
    maintain (and write, once you understand it), and search engines and
    speaking browsers have an easier time of it.

    >>> And why is fixed width layout so bad?

    >>
    >> What is the width of my browser window?
    >>

    > the max size of your browser window is at least 1024px


    My browsers are never maximized. If you had a fixed layout of, say,
    800px, it *might* fit, but next time my browser may be around 700px
    because I have another window opened next to it.

    http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts
    http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Screen_size
    http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

    The only tables at this site of mine are for .. tabular data. <g>
    http://countryrode.com/

    --
    -bts
    -Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck.
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Sep 18, 2006
    #6
  7. Chris wrote:
    > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    >
    >> Chris wrote:
    >>> Hello,
    >>>
    >>> I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of tables
    >>> to layout your pages. But why is that actually? And why is fixed width
    >>> layout so bad?

    >> You're a troll, right? This has been debated and explained to death in
    >> this forum. Why not do a little reading? Anyway, if your make a fixed
    >> layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    >> when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > Take it easy on the cofee. Herbal tea does wonders!


    I think if your read what I have written your will discover my points
    are valid and not reactionary. Aligned with was BTS has offered you.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Sep 18, 2006
    #7
  8. Chris

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Chris wrote:
    > > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > >
    > >> Chris wrote:
    > >>> Hello,
    > >>>
    > >>> I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of tables
    > >>> to layout your pages. But why is that actually? And why is fixed width
    > >>> layout so bad?
    > >> You're a troll, right? This has been debated and explained to death in
    > >> this forum. Why not do a little reading? Anyway, if your make a fixed
    > >> layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    > >> when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>

    > > Take it easy on the cofee. Herbal tea does wonders!

    >
    > I think if your read what I have written your will discover my points
    > are valid and not reactionary. Aligned with was BTS has offered you.

    Yes, that seams to be the case. *If one more person posts a question
    regarding the benifits of useing frames I will properly haft to resort
    to placeing several sharp objects through my screen. Hint, in this day
    in age, there aren't many at all. (if any).
    I actually have found that since I swiched to useing CSS for layout,
    that it is much easier to get the type of layout that I want.
    I get less problems with navigation moveing around in strange ways etc
    etc.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
     
    Chaddy2222, Sep 18, 2006
    #8
  9. Chris

    Neredbojias Guest

    To further the education of mankind, Chris <>
    vouchsafed:

    > Hello,
    >
    > I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of
    > tables to layout your pages. But why is that actually?


    The trouble with tables is that they have too many letters. A nice tri-
    alpha div is so much more pristine.

    > And why is
    > fixed width layout so bad?


    It can never reproduce.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Infinity has its limits.
     
    Neredbojias, Sep 18, 2006
    #9
  10. Chris

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Chris wrote:

    > the max size of your browser window is at least 1024px


    The max width of my browser window is 208px. (Unless you have some
    kind of trick to expand the screen resolution of my Nokia 6230i.)

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Sep 18, 2006
    #10
  11. Chris wrote:
    > I've already read several times that CSS should be used instead of tables to
    > layout your pages. But why is that actually? And why is fixed width layout
    > so bad?


    Fixed width is not that bad. It depends completely on the content and
    reason for the site. There is no one size fits all on the web.
     
    Travis Newbury, Sep 18, 2006
    #11
  12. Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > You're a troll, right?


    Didn't come across that weay to me. More like someone who did not
    understand the "reason"

    > This has been debated and explained to death in
    > this forum. Why not do a little reading?


    It appears he did.

    > Anyway, if your make a fixed
    > layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    > when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?


    Who cares, it is just a different way to design a web page. One size
    does not fit all on the web.

    (man this is a boring, and meaningless argument)
     
    Travis Newbury, Sep 18, 2006
    #12
  13. Chris

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <>,
    "Travis Newbury" <> wrote:

    > > Anyway, if your make a fixed
    > > layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    > > when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?

    >
    > Who cares, it is just a different way to design a web page. One size
    > does not fit all on the web.
    >
    > (man this is a boring, and meaningless argument)


    It is hard to say. Some disputes have been going on for thousands
    of years. They are not boring and useless in the sense that the
    good arguments become clearer and more convincing to rational
    people, the bad arguments held onto by either decreasing numbers
    of people or else increasingly stupid people. Trust me Travis,
    this is not a boring or meaningless process. It is an essential
    one. You just are failing to identify the people who gain.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Sep 18, 2006
    #13
  14. Chris

    Joe Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    >


    > I actually have found that since I swiched to useing CSS for layout,
    > that it is much easier to get the type of layout that I want.
    > I get less problems with navigation moveing around in strange ways etc
    > etc.
    >

    I agree with that Chad. A couple of weeks solid work to get the basics
    down pat, then reading this group (and others), experimenting -
    Pretty soon it's second nature and way easier than nested tables both in
    the initial stages and the maintenance phase.

    btw - which Uni are you at? Just curious.
     
    Joe, Sep 19, 2006
    #14
  15. Chris

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    Joe wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    > >

    >
    > > I actually have found that since I swiched to useing CSS for layout,
    > > that it is much easier to get the type of layout that I want.
    > > I get less problems with navigation moveing around in strange ways etc
    > > etc.
    > >

    > I agree with that Chad. A couple of weeks solid work to get the basics
    > down pat, then reading this group (and others), experimenting -
    > Pretty soon it's second nature and way easier than nested tables both in
    > the initial stages and the maintenance phase.


    Yes, it was actually a lot of people in these groups that convinced me
    to switch to CSS in the first place. Although I am still learning a lot
    of the finer points.

    > btw - which Uni are you at? Just curious.

    Deakin, http://www.deakin.edu.au

    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
     
    Chaddy2222, Sep 19, 2006
    #15
  16. dorayme wrote:
    > > > Anyway, if your make a fixed
    > > > layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    > > > when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?

    > > Who cares, it is just a different way to design a web page. One size
    > > does not fit all on the web.
    > > (man this is a boring, and meaningless argument)

    > It is hard to say. Some disputes have been going on for thousands
    > of years. They are not boring and useless in the sense that the
    > good arguments become clearer and more convincing to rational
    > people, the bad arguments held onto by either decreasing numbers
    > of people or else increasingly stupid people. Trust me Travis,
    > this is not a boring or meaningless process. It is an essential
    > one. You just are failing to identify the people who gain.


    We disagree. Not all websites are for everyone. I see the economic
    value of design and layout. (Even if there is a small minority of
    potential visitors you lose because they can not see the design.) And
    I am sure we have discussed this to no end a billion times. You will
    not change my mind, not am I likely to change yours.
     
    Travis Newbury, Sep 19, 2006
    #16
  17. Travis Newbury wrote:
    > dorayme wrote:
    >>>> Anyway, if your make a fixed
    >>>> layout what screen size do you design for? And what do you think happens
    >>>> when a visitor deviates from your "design" or changes his font size, eh?
    >>> Who cares, it is just a different way to design a web page. One size
    >>> does not fit all on the web.
    >>> (man this is a boring, and meaningless argument)

    >> It is hard to say. Some disputes have been going on for thousands
    >> of years. They are not boring and useless in the sense that the
    >> good arguments become clearer and more convincing to rational
    >> people, the bad arguments held onto by either decreasing numbers
    >> of people or else increasingly stupid people. Trust me Travis,
    >> this is not a boring or meaningless process. It is an essential
    >> one. You just are failing to identify the people who gain.

    >
    > We disagree. Not all websites are for everyone. I see the economic
    > value of design and layout. (Even if there is a small minority of
    > potential visitors you lose because they can not see the design.) And
    > I am sure we have discussed this to no end a billion times. You will
    > not change my mind, not am I likely to change yours.
    >


    Faith based web design... I see I got you pegged!

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Sep 19, 2006
    #17
  18. Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > > I am sure we have discussed this to no end a billion times. You will
    > > not change my mind, not am I likely to change yours.

    > Faith based web design... I see I got you pegged!


    It pays the bills
     
    Travis Newbury, Sep 19, 2006
    #18
  19. Chris

    Dan Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:
    > Fixed width is not that bad. It depends completely on the content and
    > reason for the site. There is no one size fits all on the web.


    Though, "one size fits all" seems to be the governing ideology of those
    who insist on fixed-side web development.

    --
    Dan
     
    Dan, Sep 19, 2006
    #19
  20. Chris

    Dan Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:
    > Fixed width is not that bad. It depends completely on the content and
    > reason for the site. There is no one size fits all on the web.


    Though, "one size fits all" seems to be the governing ideology of those
    who insist on fixed-size web development.

    --
    Dan
     
    Dan, Sep 19, 2006
    #20
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