Dev-C++ compiling problem in Vista

[Flash Gordon]

Eligiusz Narutowicz wrote, On 06/05/08 19:04:

jacob navia wrote, On 06/05/08 06:38:

Bill Buckels wrote:
[snip]
Well Microsoft and C have both fed my family and friends for about 30
years now evn though they may seem mutually exclusive like Military
Intelligence, so I don't exactly get your point.
Selling software under Linux is impossible,

One of the biggest money spinners in my company currently runs on AIX
and Linux, with all but one customer on Linux and the code is even
written mostly in C. Oracle is sold for Linux. Plenty of other SW is
sold for Linux.

No, not "plenty" at all. Some server stuff is about it.

All depends on your definition of "plenty". In any case, Jacob said that
"selling software under Linux is impossible" so coming up with even
*one* example proves that he is wrong.

There is about
no desktop market is is obvious to anyone with a passing interest in SW
development and business.

The market is big enough that companies invest time, money and effort on it.

A tiny minority perhaps.

Ah well, you admit that some do.

i.e hardly any. Sorry. But at least asknowledge there is very, very
small market compared to Mac and Windows.

Even *one* person buying proves that Jacob is wrong. I'll acknowledge
that the market for desktop SW for Linux is smaller. Now will you and
Jacob acknowledge that it exists and that people *will* by things?

What succesful SW? And please do no say "oracle".

What is wrong with Oracle? Companies spend a *lot* of money on Oracle
licenses some for Windows and some for Linux (I don't know which is larger).
Well, there is the SW I have spent a lot of time developing which I
won't advertise here.
Livelink
VMWare (all versions)
Crossover Office
MatLab
Depending on how much you stretch it there is RedHat ES/AS

Some of the above are big names in their relevant domains. There is more
as well.

Other services like sys admin possibly. But designing a web for someone
and that web being put on linux is not really "developing sw for linux".

Consultancy (some of my time is sold on consultancy and we sell a lot of
other consultants time)
Customisation
Support (companies will pay big money for support on the right product)

 

[jacob navia]

At connx.com, we make lots of sales (I guess millions of dollars, but I am
not in sales so it is only a guess) to the Linux market.

This confirms what I say:
CONNX - Simplified Data Access Via ODBC, JDBC, OLEDB for RMS, VSAM,
CISAM ... ODBC RMS VSAM CISAM

Another server application. And of course you sell to the linux/windows
AIX, whatever market. Linux is done for servers, as I said several
times, and with each example this gets only confirmed!

The normal users, people that want a system to store their photos,
mp3, use the internet, and have a home/small office system are
left completely out.

No software for them. How many games can you buy? How you
manage your mp3 collection when you have to hunt the internet
to find the drivers for this and that?

 

[Ian Collins]

This confirms what I say:
CONNX - Simplified Data Access Via ODBC, JDBC, OLEDB for RMS, VSAM,
CISAM ... ODBC RMS VSAM CISAM

Another server application. And of course you sell to the linux/windows
AIX, whatever market. Linux is done for servers, as I said several
times, and with each example this gets only confirmed!

You are shifting the goalposts again, you originally posted "Selling
software under Linux is impossible, at least for developers like most of
us." Aren't the people who write server applications "developers like
most of us"?

 

[jacob navia]

You are shifting the goalposts again, you originally posted "Selling
software under Linux is impossible, at least for developers like most of
us." Aren't the people who write server applications "developers like
most of us"?

Big corporations?

No, sorry, most corporations are NOT like small developers. There is a
small size difference

And none of the server software is specifically for linux. It is just
server side software that will run in linux but also in other unices
and windows server 2003!

The main point of my argument, that has been ignored in all the
discussions until now, is that Microsoft produced cheap and user
friendly software for the personal computer user. That is why it
is the corporation of that size now. Because they targeted the
personal computer user.

Unix has always targeted the corporate user, the server market,
except in the version of Steve Jobs. He did what nobody else
has done: making a user friendly system for the average
person that is at the same time very powerful and easy to use.

Linux has produced yet another server platform that is cheap since
the developers work for free and the whole works by exploiting them

The work of the linux/GNU developer is completely taken from his/her
hands and sold later by other people that make relatively big profits
(SUSE/IBM/RedHat/) At least under the traditional model, the developer
doesn't keep his/her work but he/she receives a salary, normal health
benefits, retirement contribution, etc.

Under the GNU/Linux model, the developer doesn't receive *anything*.

No wonder I did not really like that model, sorry

 

[user923005]

This confirms what I say:
CONNX - Simplified Data Access Via ODBC, JDBC, OLEDB for RMS, VSAM,
CISAM ... ODBC RMS VSAM CISAM

Another server application. And of course you sell to the linux/windows
AIX, whatever market. Linux is done for servers, as I said several
times, and with each example this gets only confirmed!

The normal users, people that want a system to store their photos,
mp3, use the internet, and have a home/small office system are
left completely out.

Actually, our tools enable exactly this sort of thing.

No software for them. How many games can you buy? How you
manage your mp3 collection when you have to hunt the internet
to find the drivers for this and that?

We sell Linux client components (notably ODBC drivers and tools for
Linux development).
This market is accelerating. There is no doubt about it.

 

[user923005]

You are shifting the goalposts again, you originally posted "Selling
software under Linux is impossible, at least for developers like most of
us."  Aren't the people who write server applications "developers like
most of us"?

We sell client stuff, server stuff, utilities and middleware stuff.
Notably, we enable Linux (and other POSIX type systems) to have the
same sort of data access as Windows machines that use ODBC.
So (for instance) you could embed an Adabas query into your OpenOffice
spreadsheet the same way as you could stick one into an Excel
spreadsheet on Windows.

Our Linux client stuff is definitely growing in popularity.

 

[Flash Gordon]

jacob navia wrote, On 06/05/08 22:47:

Big corporations?

Big corporations making a lot of money does not prove it is possible to
make money?

Big? My company has somewhere around a hundred employees, most of which
are not in development. Then entire group probably has under 500 employees.

No, sorry, most corporations are NOT like small developers. There is a
small size difference

If we give you examples of small companies you will say that they don't
count because they have fewer sales than MS.

And none of the server software is specifically for linux. It is just
server side software that will run in linux but also in other unices
and windows server 2003!

Some of the SW I listed is definitely note server software, and
Crossover Office is definitely desktop and Linux specific. So is Win4Lin
which last I saw was doing reasonably well.

The main point of my argument, that has been ignored in all the

<snip>

I was addressing a specific point you made which was incorrect. Small
and large companies make money selling SW on Linux, something you
claimed does not happen. Many of the small companies started off even
smaller.

 

[Bill Buckels]

The work of the linux/GNU developer is completely taken from his/her
hands and sold later by other people that make relatively big profits
(SUSE/IBM/RedHat/) At least under the traditional model, the developer
doesn't keep his/her work but he/she receives a salary, normal health
benefits, retirement contribution, etc.

Yes, under the traditional model for example the company that I work
for matches my retirement package which is self-directed and portable
unlike much of the code that I write and I squirrel away quite a good
amount every month. Our deferred profit sharing is in addition to
that, as are my medical benefits and dental plan. The plan extends to
children even while in university and spouse of course. Courses are
paid for as long as they fall into career development and are pre-
approved. The benefits are good and I am grateful for them as well as
for flexible hours and a 4 month leave of absense each year as well as
scheduled paid vacation. I am grateful for my employer's generosity.
The company functions and lucnhes etc. are extended to all of our
employees as well as other percs like cool computers at christmas
time. All of our employees get most of what I do.

Under the GNU/Linux model, the developer doesn't receive *anything*.

Life is full of choices. I would never say to my employer because I
trust these guys and I would never say that I will never use Vista.
And I have a new dual core desktop machine paved with Vista courtesy
of one of our clients as well as more desktops and linux and windows
servers than you can shake a pragma at.

I have registered versions of many Qt cross-development environments
and all that other stuff that we traditional model programmer's get.

No wonder I did not really like that model, sorry

Well, I never doubted your preference to work for money. I am always
surprised when anyone writes ShareWare expecting to make a profit. We
traditional programmers just kick that stuff out for proof of concept
or fun between wifetime, playtime, family time and sleeptime or while
coffeeing it up and letting the dogs out in the morning before we make
the commute or VPN in to the client's site.

So it is with a great deal of sadness that I hear these young guys who
deserve better buying-in to this GPL model and pouring their hearts
and souls into someone else's profit margin.

At the end of the day guys like me have tossed more resumes in the
trash because I did not see the career path strategy and work history
that should have followed the excellent transcript of marks. I always
wanted someone who was motivated by greed as well as technical
ability. We are in business computing and practicing sound business
analysis in one's career path is always desired because it generally
results in sound solutions and good client relationships and of course
money.

Bill

 

[user923005]

Oracle is precisely the software that confirms it: linux is for servers.
OBVIOUSLY you will find all data bases, (excluding Microsoft SQL server
maybe) represented under linux.

But tell me what popular games you can buy for linux?
http://www.linuxgames.com/
http://whdb.com/2008/top-25-linux-games-for-2008/
http://icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php

There is Microsoft Office clone yes, but developed by SUN
and not for linux!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_office_suites
http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications.html
http://www.linux.org/vendor/software.html

HTH

 

[Richard Bos]

Soon [Linux distributuions] will be everybit as user-friendly as
any Windows [...]

<laughter>

No, seriously. They're already working on the crashing; now all they
have to do is find an interface which is at the same time frustrating
and condescending, instead of their current level of merely unusable.
Perhaps they can borrow things off MacOSX.

Richard, says: ASS, AOSS.

 

[jacob navia]

http://www.linuxgames.com/

OK. I went to that site. I found

------- 19 (nineteen) -----------------
entries.

In those nineteen I found popular "games" like "Wine", the
windows emulator. Obviously running wine allows you to run
more games...

Another entry was an Open GL develomment system, and news like
PC Vendors push for open source device drivers.

Great. True there were a few games in that list (maybe 10).
I did not look at the quality, whatever.

I followed the link to "half life". Last entry in the news page
was from Feb 12th 2003. Five years ago. Most of the links in the
page would not work.

Other links in the "hosted" tab either would not work or
lead to game companies that proposed as minimum requirement
windows XP.

Some links lead not to games but to game development systems,
and in all of them there wasn't something really new...
"XRally" (a car game) had a NEWS section. The last entry
was from 2001.

The only games I found (after some effort) were

"Secret Maryo chronicles" a two dimensional sprite game.
Globulation (strategy)
Dungeons and dragons (text based, no graphics)

and some others.

Like many linux stuff, when you try to really see what is behind those
links, you discover that most of the game developers will not give
their software for free, and that there is no market for games under
linux since neither the people responsible for creating the conditions,
nor linux users have any interest in games.

 

[Richard Bos]

But tell me what popular games you can buy for linux?

Buy? BUY!? NetHack, Advent and Dungeon are free and available for Linux,
and what more does a serious gameplayer need?

Furrfu... children these days... never ascended... never even seen the
dwarves sleeping... what's coming of this world... muttermutter...

Richard

 

[Antoninus Twink]

Like many linux stuff, when you try to really see what is behind those
links, you discover that most of the game developers will not give
their software for free, and that there is no market for games under
linux since neither the people responsible for creating the conditions,
nor linux users have any interest in games.

You raise an excellent point, but I think you draw the wrong conclusion.

I agree that the lack of games is a major stumbling-block for widespread
adoption of Linux on the desktop. In many households, it's the kids who
basically understand and configure the family PC, so if they wanted
Linux then it would probably happen. But the lure of Lora Craft is too
great, and they stick with Windows despite the Linux cool factor.

It's funny how things work out - MS thought that Office or .NET or one
of their flagship products would be the killer app that kept people
using their operating system... but in fact, it's shoot-em-ups and RPGs
as well.

But the future is not so certain. Firstly, there is a move (possibly
because of "piracy" concerns) to release games only on the consoles, not
for PC at all - e.g. GTA IV, which is in the news at the moment. If that
happens then within a few years Windows will fade as a platform for
games.

Secondly, if PC games do have a future, then as Linux grows year by year
there will be more and more of a market for games on Linux, and that
could well drive games producers to experiment with Linux versions.
OpenGL and the LSB and other standardization efforts will help make it
viable.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Antoninus Twink]

Buy? BUY!? NetHack, Advent and Dungeon are free and available for Linux,
and what more does a serious gameplayer need?

Furrfu... children these days... never ascended... never even seen the
dwarves sleeping... what's coming of this world... muttermutter...

Lots of modern interactive fiction, too (I still think of them as text
adventures, but I suppose that shows my age)... Just get yourself a
z-code interpreter like Frotz and the door opens to gems like Graham
Nelson's Curses (oh, sorry, curses is supposedly off-topic here!), Emily
Short's stuff, and "So Far", not to mention the original Zork trilogy
and HHGTTG.

 

[Joachim Schmitz]

Lots of modern interactive fiction, too (I still think of them as text
adventures, but I suppose that shows my age)... Just get yourself a
z-code interpreter like Frotz and the door opens to gems like Graham
Nelson's Curses (oh, sorry, curses is supposedly off-topic here!),

Well, as off-topic as this thread has developned, curses os almost back to
topic

Bye, Jojo

 

[Eligiusz Narutowicz]

Eligiusz Narutowicz wrote, On 06/05/08 19:04:

jacob navia wrote, On 06/05/08 06:38:
Bill Buckels wrote:
[snip]
Well Microsoft and C have both fed my family and friends for about 30
years now evn though they may seem mutually exclusive like Military
Intelligence, so I don't exactly get your point.
Selling software under Linux is impossible,
One of the biggest money spinners in my company currently runs on AIX
and Linux, with all but one customer on Linux and the code is even
written mostly in C. Oracle is sold for Linux. Plenty of other SW is
sold for Linux.

No, not "plenty" at all. Some server stuff is about it.

All depends on your definition of "plenty". In any case, Jacob said
that "selling software under Linux is impossible" so coming up with
even *one* example proves that he is wrong.

If one wants to being rather stupid and "anal" then yes but it is clear
anough I think what is meant here.

The market is big enough that companies invest time, money and effort on it.

No it is not. The market is very small for the desktops.

Ah well, you admit that some do.

Of course. Why not? I never said "no" but its very small and there is
not much revenue there.

Even *one* person buying proves that Jacob is wrong. I'll acknowledge
that the market for desktop SW for Linux is smaller. Now will you and
Jacob acknowledge that it exists and that people *will* by things?

I do not understand why you are being so stupid. It is clear to me what
Jacob is meaning.

What is wrong with Oracle? Companies spend a *lot* of money on Oracle
licenses some for Windows and some for Linux (I don't know which is
larger).

because it is the only" big player" and one example is not "lots of
opportunity" I think.

Well, there is the SW I have spent a lot of time developing which I
won't advertise here.

Why not?

Livelink
VMWare (all versions)
Free.

Crossover Office

never used it and the programs run are all Windows.

MatLab

? Open source equivalents.

Depending on how much you stretch it there is RedHat ES/AS

Some of the above are big names in their relevant domains. There is
more as well.

Like what? It is you making big claims. Please try to verify it. So far
you list only oracle and we all know that is not "desktop market" for
most programmers to try and be making money.

Consultancy (some of my time is sold on consultancy and we sell a lot
of other consultants time)
Customisation
Support (companies will pay big money for support on the right
product)

You are not the market although I wonder if you are thinking you are.

 

[Eligiusz Narutowicz]

http://www.linuxgames.com/

This is a joke I think.

http://whdb.com/2008/top-25-linux-games-for-2008/

Maybe 10 years back then yes.

http://icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php

Are you joking here? Seriously joking?

 

[Flash Gordon]

Eligiusz Narutowicz wrote, On 07/05/08 10:57:

Eligiusz Narutowicz wrote, On 06/05/08 19:04:

jacob navia wrote, On 06/05/08 06:38:
Bill Buckels wrote:
[snip]
Well Microsoft and C have both fed my family and friends for about 30
years now evn though they may seem mutually exclusive like Military
Intelligence, so I don't exactly get your point.
Selling software under Linux is impossible,
One of the biggest money spinners in my company currently runs on AIX
and Linux, with all but one customer on Linux and the code is even
written mostly in C. Oracle is sold for Linux. Plenty of other SW is
sold for Linux.
No, not "plenty" at all. Some server stuff is about it.

All depends on your definition of "plenty". In any case, Jacob said
that "selling software under Linux is impossible" so coming up with
even *one* example proves that he is wrong.

If one wants to being rather stupid and "anal" then yes but it is clear
anough I think what is meant here.

You mean if one wants to be correct.

No it is not.

Why are they spending time, money and effort on it if it is not large
enough to be worth it? Companies are not charities.

The market is very small for the desktops.

That does not mean it is not worth the time, money and effort.

Of course. Why not? I never said "no" but its very small and there is
not much revenue there.

There is money to be had for both small and large players. That covers
all the "developers like us" on this group.

I do not understand why you are being so stupid. It is clear to me what
Jacob is meaning.

Jacob is being incorrect. If he means small then that is what he should say.

because it is the only" big player" and one example is not "lots of
opportunity" I think.

Someone else posted on this thread about the SW his company produces and
was told that it was too big to count. He also pointed out that his
company does SW for the Linux desktop, not just server applications.

Why not?

Because
a) I don't believe in advertising in inappropriate places.
b) It is SW that would not be of interest to people here.

Free.

Only one of the three full version of VMWare is free, and that is the
low end server version. The desktop version costs money, and the high
end version costs a lot of money and is distributed with its own version
of Linux.

never used it and the programs run are all Windows.

It is still SW sold specifically for the Linux desktop market. Therefore
it is still a company making money selling to the Linux desktop market.

? Open source equivalents.

I was refering to MatLab itself. At least, the company that produces
MatLab lists Linux as one of the options under the system requirements
and they do not give it away.

Like what? It is you making big claims. Please try to verify it.

I did, you are the one not verifying things. MatLab is a big player in
its market and it is *sold* for Linux. I verified it on the companies
web site. The same for VMWare Workstation and ESX Server. Opentext is a
global company and their Livelink product is big in its domain and they
sell it on Linux as well as Windows.

So far
you list only oracle and we all know that is not "desktop market" for
most programmers to try and be making money.

Well, if you discount the others which I did verify by falsely claiming
that I did not you won't see the evidence. However, the plain fact is
that I have already demonstrated desktop applications from small and
large companies which I *have* verified.

You are not the market although I wonder if you are thinking you are.

No, I am not the market, however I am telling you some of the things
that companies *do* spend significant money on. My company makes far
more on Professional Services (i.e. the above) than on SW sales. RedHat
make a lot on support on the back of open source SW. Oracle make a lot
on support and are releasing products where the only thing they charge
for is support.

 

[user923005]

Buy? BUY!? NetHack, Advent and Dungeon are free and available for Linux,
and what more does a serious gameplayer need?

Furrfu... children these days... never ascended... never even seen the
dwarves sleeping... what's coming of this world... muttermutter...

Actually, that argument solidifies Jacob's point:
It is hard to sell commercial software on Linux.

And (to some degree) there is a lot of validity in his argument.

Especially with something like a C compiler, it would be a tough
sell. His "LCC For Linux" would have to compete with the GCC tool
chain. How easy will it be to have a large value added in that
environment?

There are clearly a lot more games available for Windows. If the
majority of quality Linux games are also free (which seems to be your
point), then we are competing against free in that market, and that is
a tough sell. Why will a game developer spend a large effort porting
to an arena where the competition has a cost of $0.00 and the
potential market is much smaller in total as well?

The kind of products that we produce for Linux have very little
competition and the free alternatives are very shaky. So our value
add is an obvious easy sell. But there may well be areas in Linux
that are a waste of time to attempt to penetrate.

So I guess the real answer for "Should you try to sell commercial
Linux products?" is "It depends on what you are selling."
But the same sort of things also happen on the Windows platform. It
is not uncommon for some major tool system to get subsumed by
Microsoft and given away. If your company has spent a boatload of
money developing a competitor to the tool that got subsumed, you are
hung out to dry.

 

[Richard Bos]

Actually, that argument solidifies Jacob's point:
It is hard to sell commercial software on Linux.

Not really, because the same games are equally free on Windows.

Especially with something like a C compiler, it would be a tough
sell. His "LCC For Linux" would have to compete with the GCC tool
chain. How easy will it be to have a large value added in that
environment?

And back on topic, several C compilers, too, are free under Windows. So
how could anyone sell them? But jacob does. So he himself is a counter-
argument for his own point.

Richard