Disgusting

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Hywel Jenkins, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. In article <Xns969F8A2429445stanmccann@216.234.192.142>,
    says...
    > At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
    > process of a total redesign of our website.


    <snipped rant about other people's coding standards />

    Should you care? Save yourself the stress and don't.

    --
    Forum4Designers.com - usenet for wankers
     
    Hywel Jenkins, Jul 26, 2005
    #1
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  2. Hywel Jenkins

    Stan McCann Guest

    At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
    process of a total redesign of our website. As the webmaster and
    teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
    degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
    website reflect the web development approach that we teach.

    Personnally, I teach strict HTML 4.01 and feel strongly that no new
    pages should be created using transitional as the time of transition is
    long past. I have been reviewing college sites all over the country,
    especially colleges like NMSUA that offer degrees in web development
    hoping to find sites that would support my arguments in keeping with
    the coding styles so often seen discussed on this group.

    So what do I find? Transitional or Loose DTDs if any and table layout
    everywhere! The coding used by so many of these colleges that say they
    teach web development is truly disgusting IMO. Front Page and Word
    documents saved as HTML, pop ups, music, and so many other things that
    I have seen discussion after discussion opposing the use of seems to be
    the norm. No wonder it is so difficult to find a site that validates,
    doesn't use table layout, etc.

    So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
    and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
    beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
    write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
    sites using 10 year old methods?

    I could go on as this has turned into a rant. I just am starting to
    wonder: what's the point? OK, end rant.

    --
    Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
    Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
    http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ There are 10 kinds of people.
    Those that understand binary and those that don't.
     
    Stan McCann, Jul 26, 2005
    #2
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  3. In article <Xns969F8A2429445stanmccann@216.234.192.142>,
    Stan McCann <> wrote:

    > As the webmaster and
    > teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
    > degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
    > website reflect the web development approach that we teach.


    It seems to me that web mastery would maybe be worth an AS but surely
    not a BS. I'm sure there's more to the degree than that. Especially at
    Alamogordo ;-)

    > So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
    > and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority?


    You betcha. A vast minority. But you knew that.

    > Are we
    > beating our heads against a wall?


    I'm not. I take satisfaction from creating conforming sites.

    > Is there any use in continuing to
    > write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
    > sites using 10 year old methods?


    I certainly won't abandon what I know to conform to the norm.

    leo

    --
    <http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/
     
    Leonard Blaisdell, Jul 26, 2005
    #3
  4. Hywel Jenkins

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 26 Jul 2005 13:34:37 -0700, Stan McCann <> wrote:

    >So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
    >and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority?


    Yes.

    >Is there any use in continuing to
    >write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
    >sites using 10 year old methods?


    Well it's no _worse_ than using 1x1.gif

    Just don't expect clients, or even "technical managers" to appreciate
    the distinction. You certainly won't get paid any more than a clueless
    muppet with a copy of Frontpage.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jul 26, 2005
    #4
  5. Hywel Jenkins

    Stan McCann Guest

    Leonard Blaisdell <> wrote in
    news::

    > It seems to me that web mastery would maybe be worth an AS but
    > surely not a BS. I'm sure there's more to the degree than that.
    > Especially at Alamogordo ;-)


    NMSUA is a branch of NMSU and a community college. The web mastery
    degree is an AS as we cannot offer a four year degree.

    >> So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating
    >> content and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority?

    >
    > You betcha. A vast minority. But you knew that.


    Yeah, more venting than anything else.

    >> Are we
    >> beating our heads against a wall?

    >
    > I'm not. I take satisfaction from creating conforming sites.
    >
    >> Is there any use in continuing to
    >> write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing
    >> web sites using 10 year old methods?

    >
    > I certainly won't abandon what I know to conform to the norm.


    I won't either. I just get frustrated that what I know to be correct
    is so difficult to find out there. There are literally millions of
    pages of horrid markup and practically none that can pass validation to
    strict. With all of these schools putting out such garbage, it makes
    it difficult to justify time and effort to my superiors in my job as
    webmaster and it makes it difficult to justify to my students in my
    classes. After all, what they see looks good even though it is nothing
    more than tag soup.

    --
    Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
    Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
    http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ There are 10 kinds of people.
    Those that understand binary and those that don't.
     
    Stan McCann, Jul 27, 2005
    #5
  6. Hywel Jenkins

    jlbdoc95 Guest

    Goes to show why people with those degrees are still not taken all that
    seriously, when I hire someone who claims to have a web development degree,
    I always take that with a grain of salt, more often than none you find that
    the teachings are just that, FrontPage background with no regard for
    Standards.

    Kudos Stan for putting your students on the right path!!

    Jean

    "Stan McCann" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns969F8A2429445stanmccann@216.234.192.142...
    > At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
    > process of a total redesign of our website. As the webmaster and
    > teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
    > degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
    > website reflect the web development approach that we teach.
    >
    > Personnally, I teach strict HTML 4.01 and feel strongly that no new
    > pages should be created using transitional as the time of transition is
    > long past. I have been reviewing college sites all over the country,
    > especially colleges like NMSUA that offer degrees in web development
    > hoping to find sites that would support my arguments in keeping with
    > the coding styles so often seen discussed on this group.
    >
    > So what do I find? Transitional or Loose DTDs if any and table layout
    > everywhere! The coding used by so many of these colleges that say they
    > teach web development is truly disgusting IMO. Front Page and Word
    > documents saved as HTML, pop ups, music, and so many other things that
    > I have seen discussion after discussion opposing the use of seems to be
    > the norm. No wonder it is so difficult to find a site that validates,
    > doesn't use table layout, etc.
    >
    > So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
    > and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
    > beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
    > write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
    > sites using 10 year old methods?
    >
    > I could go on as this has turned into a rant. I just am starting to
    > wonder: what's the point? OK, end rant.
    >
    > --
    > Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
    > Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
    > http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ There are 10 kinds of people.
    > Those that understand binary and those that don't.
     
    jlbdoc95, Jul 27, 2005
    #6
  7. Hywel Jenkins

    cosmic foo Guest

    "jlbdoc95" <albina@> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Goes to show why people with those degrees are still not taken all that
    > seriously, when I hire someone who claims to have a web development

    degree,
    > I always take that with a grain of salt, more often than none you find

    that
    > the teachings are just that, FrontPage background with no regard for
    > Standards.
    >

    frontpage rules!
     
    cosmic foo, Jul 27, 2005
    #7
  8. Hywel Jenkins

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Stan McCann quothed:

    > At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
    > process of a total redesign of our website.


    New Mexico has computers? Wow.

    > So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
    > and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
    > beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
    > write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
    > sites using 10 year old methods?


    No, I agree with everything you say except the bias against tables.
    There are just some things divs and css can't do; it may in part be due
    to lackluster implementation, but css isn't perfect, either. I have a
    few transitional pages on my site simply because it is much easier (and
    more reliable) to vertically-center small content.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Jul 27, 2005
    #8
  9. Hywel Jenkins

    Philip Ronan Guest

    "cosmic foo" wrote:

    > frontpage rules!


    <P CLASS="MsoNormal" ALIGN="left" STYLE="margin-top: 5; margin-bottom:
    -7"><B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000"><I><SPAN STYLE="mso-bidi-font-size:
    12.0pt"><FONT FACE="Verdana">No it doesn't.</FONT></SPAN></I></B></P>

    --
    phil [dot] ronan @ virgin [dot] net
    http://vzone.virgin.net/phil.ronan/
     
    Philip Ronan, Jul 27, 2005
    #9
  10. Hywel Jenkins

    JDS Guest

    On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:34:37 -0700, Stan McCann wrote:

    > So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
    > and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
    > beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
    > write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
    > sites using 10 year old methods?


    Probably not in the minority -- I think the term is irrelevant in this
    case. My finding is that web design tasks are so often given to people
    with no skills other than FrontPage that the person creating the page was
    not even aware that the concepts you espouse even exist!

    One cannot know that one is breaking a "rule"[1] if one does not even know
    that there is a rule at all.

    I don't think you are beating your head against the wall on this. I just
    think that people who don't know what the **** they are talking about too
    often implement policies or create things that do not follow rules or
    codes that make sense to people who do know what the **** they are talking
    about.

    So keep at it, someone is bound to listen eventually. I mean, why pay
    someone to do a task, be an "expert" at something, if you aren't going to
    listen to their "expert" recommendations.

    Ugh. Maybe you are beating your head against the wall. Keep at it
    anyways, though.

    later...




    [1] "rule" in quotes, because even the W3C "rules" are just
    "recommendations".
    --
    JDS | lid
    | http://www.newtnotes.com
    DJMBS | http://newtnotes.com/doctor-jeff-master-brainsurgeon/
     
    JDS, Jul 27, 2005
    #10
  11. Hywel Jenkins

    JDS Guest

    JDS, Jul 27, 2005
    #11
  12. cosmic foo wrote:

    > "jlbdoc95" <albina@> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>Goes to show why people with those degrees are still not taken all that
    >>seriously, when I hire someone who claims to have a web development

    >
    > degree,
    >
    >>I always take that with a grain of salt, more often than none you find

    >
    > that
    >
    >>the teachings are just that, FrontPage background with no regard for
    >>Standards.
    >>

    >
    > frontpage rules!
    >
    >


    Yeah it rules garble-heads.
     
    Animesh Kumar, Jul 27, 2005
    #12
  13. Animesh Kumar wrote:

    > cosmic foo wrote:


    >> frontpage rules!


    > Yeah it rules garble-heads.


    Well, something has to. :)

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Killing all Usenet posts from Google Groups
    Info: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
    *ALSO contains links for access to the NON-BETA GG archive interface*
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jul 27, 2005
    #13
  14. Blinky the Shark wrote:
    > Animesh Kumar wrote:
    >
    >
    >>cosmic foo wrote:

    >
    >
    >>>frontpage rules!

    >
    >
    >>Yeah it rules garble-heads.

    >
    >
    > Well, something has to. :)
    >


    I wish they moved from Frontpage to "My-Crow-Soft Word to HTML" export
    filters --- if creating lots of trash with ease is what they
    (garble-heads) care about :)
     
    Animesh Kumar, Jul 27, 2005
    #14
  15. Hywel Jenkins

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, JDS quothed:

    > On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:35:49 -0700, Neredbojias wrote:
    >
    > > New Mexico has computers? Wow.

    >
    > hah! you crakka me up


    My mother dropped me on my head when I was a kid and then threatened to
    rename me "rf" when I wouldn't stop crying. I believe that's when my
    sanity surrendered to the exigencies of the real world.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Jul 28, 2005
    #15
  16. Hywel Jenkins

    rf Guest

    Neredbojias wrote:

    > and then threatened to rename me "rf"


    Watch it kiddo!

    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 28, 2005
    #16
  17. Hywel Jenkins

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, "rf" <@invalid.com> quothed:

    > Neredbojias wrote:
    >
    > > and then threatened to rename me "rf"

    >
    > Watch it kiddo!
    >
    > Cheers
    > Richard.


    Now you have to admit you're a bit of a crab. I'm pulling Dorayme's
    chain and you come on with your "outraged human being" shtick. Back
    when I was a kid, teachers like you got the well-deserved "tack on the
    chair" treatment.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Jul 29, 2005
    #17
  18. Hywel Jenkins

    rf Guest

    Neredbojias wrote:

    > > Watch it kiddo! :)
    > >
    > > Cheers
    > > Richard.

    >
    > Now you have to admit you're a bit of a crab. I'm pulling Dorayme's
    > chain and you come on with your "outraged human being" shtick.


    Sorry, forgot to add the emoticon. Corrected.

    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 29, 2005
    #18
  19. Hywel Jenkins

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, "rf" <@invalid.com> quothed:

    > > Now you have to admit you're a bit of a crab. I'm pulling Dorayme's
    > > chain and you come on with your "outraged human being" shtick.

    >
    > Sorry, forgot to add the emoticon. Corrected.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Richard.


    S'right, I'm usually thick-skinned (-although fore it's a bit
    sensitive.) Just leave the demoticon in the drawer.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Jul 30, 2005
    #19
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