Education is the enemy of all religions (and hierarchies)

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by Kenny McCormack, Nov 23, 2008.

  1. The CLC relevance should be obvious. I think it is pretty clear that
    the hegemony in CLC is falling apart, as is the hegemony of religion in
    the world at large.

    >From the Telegraph (UK):


    Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church,
    claims bishop

    University-educated Catholics are to blame for the crisis in the
    Church and the growth of secularism, according to the bishop charged
    with tackling the decline in Mass attendance.


    By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent
    Last Updated: 9:27AM GMT 16 Nov 2008

    The Rt Rev Patrick O'Donoghue, the Bishop of Lancaster, has claimed
    that graduates are spreading scepticism and sowing dissent. Instead of
    following the Church's teaching they are "hedonistic", "selfish" and
    "egocentric", he said.

    In particular, the bishop complained that influential Catholics in
    politics and the media were undermining the Church.

    While not naming names, he suggested that such people had been
    compromised by their education, which he said had a "dark side, due to
    original sin".

    Prominent Catholics in public life include Mark Thompson, the BBC's
    director general, and Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister.

    Bishop O'Donoghue, who has recently published a report on how to renew
    Catholicism in Britain, argued that mass education has led to
    "sickness in the Church and wider society".

    "What we have witnessed in Western societies since the end of the
    Second World War is the development of mass education on a scale
    unprecedented in human history - resulting in economic growth,
    scientific and technological advances, and the cultural and social
    enrichment of billions of people's lives," he said.

    "However, every human endeavor has a dark side, due to original sin
    and concupiscence. In the case of education, we can see its distortion
    through the widespread dissemination of radical scepticism,
    positivism, utilitarianism and relativism.

    "Taken together, these intellectual trends have resulted in a
    fragmented society that marginalizes God, with many people mistakenly
    thinking they can live happy and productive lives without him.

    "It shouldn't surprise us that the shadows cast by the distortion of
    education, and corresponding societal changes, have also touched
    members of the Church. As Pope Benedict XVI puts it, even in the
    Church we find hedonism, selfishness and egocentric behavior."

    The bishop said that Catholic graduates had rejected the reforms made
    in the second council of the Vatican, which introduced fundamental
    changes in issues such as liturgy and doctrine.

    "The Second Vatican Council tends to be misinterpreted most by
    Catholics who have had a university education -- that is, by those
    most exposed to the intellectual and moral spirit of the age," he
    said. "These well-educated Catholics have gone on to occupy
    influential positions in education, the media, politics, and even the
    Church, where they have been able to spread their so-called loyal
    dissent, causing confusion and discord in the whole church."

    Mr Thompson, who went to Oxford University, has this month been
    embroiled in a row over broadcasting standards in the wake of the
    scandal over offensive telephone messages left by Jonathan Ross and
    Russell Brand. Under his command the BBC broadcast Jerry Springer The
    Opera, considered blasphemous by many Christians, and was forced to
    pull a cartoon called Popetown set in a fictional Vatican over
    concerns it would cause offence.

    Mr Blair, also Oxford-educated, became a Catholic last year but has
    received Mass for years. As Prime Minister he oversaw the introduction
    of laws on gay rights and abortion which the Catholic church opposed.

    The bishop said that influential Catholics had set a bad example and
    corrupted the faith of those who had not gone to university.

    "This failure of leadership has exacerbated the even-greater problem
    of the mass departure from the Church of the working-class and poor,"
    he said. "For example, the relentless diatribe in the popular media
    against Christianity has undermined the confidence of the ordinary
    faithful in the Church."

    Although the influx of immigrants from Catholic countries in Eastern
    Europe has buoyed Mass attendance in recent years, there has been a
    significant decline in the number of indigenous, working-class
    Catholics.

    Attendance at Mass in 1991 was recorded as 1.3 million, representing a
    drop of 40 per cent since 1963, but it fell further to 960,000 in
    2004. The number of priests in England and Wales has slumped by nearly
    a quarter in 20 years, from 4,545 in 1985 to 3,643 in 2005.

    Bishop O'Donoghue has produced a report, Fit for Mission? Church,
    examining the current problems facing the Church and designed "to
    enable Catholic men, women and children to resist the pressures to
    compromise, even abandon, the truths of the Catholic faith".

    He says that he supports Catholics receiving a university education,
    but urges they should be "better-equipped to challenge the erroneous
    thinking of their contemporaries".

    Nicholas Lash, the former Norris-Hulse Professor of Divinity at
    Cambridge University, called the bishop's comments "extremely grave".

    Writing in this week's Tablet - a respected Catholic journal - Prof
    Lash says: "If he had named a particular university or universities,
    or particular individuals, he might well have had a series of libel
    actions on his hands.

    "Quite what constructive purpose could possibly be served by such
    irresponsible and wholesale scapegoating of the educated, I have
    simply no idea."
    =========================================
    end of article.


    What any religion needs is a population of pig-ignorant dummies. Look
    how well this has worked for Islam!
    Kenny McCormack, Nov 23, 2008
    #1
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  2. Kenny McCormack

    jacob navia Guest

    Malcolm McLean wrote:
    > "Kenny McCormack" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >> The CLC relevance should be obvious. I think it is pretty clear that
    >> the hegemony in CLC is falling apart, as is the hegemony of religion in
    >> the world at large.
    >>
    >>> From the Telegraph (UK):

    >>
    >> Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church,
    >> claims bishop
    >>

    > Education creates a sense of superiority in the educated.
    >


    Well, Mr Mclean, here we go, disclosing your prejudices. Actually
    I do not know if this is cynicism, or just the fact that your
    brain capacity seems quite small, education or not.

    > Where university education is confined to a tiny elite, this isn't too
    > damaging,


    look at that. "Isn't too damaging", yes of course. Education damages
    the brain. Apparently in view of the crap you produce you are
    overeducated!

    :)

    > because a man with a degree knows he has to mess up pretty
    > spectacularly to be anything other than rich. In fact you tend to find
    > that what poverty there is is voluntary; there's always someone who
    > likes living in Thai slums, taking drugs and selling revolutionary
    > newspapers rather than working in a 9-5 job.
    >


    And we go on with the nonsense.

    > Mass higher education creates different social effects. For one thing,
    > it creates resentment.


    Yes. Let's stop this nonsense. Education must be dammed, destroyed,
    since it is a dangerous thing that must be given to a small elite
    so that resentment doesn't appear.

    Obviously Mr McLean believes he would be part of that elite isn't
    it?

    > If only the cleverest boy in a class of thirty
    > gets to uni, a few seconds or thirds might feel hard done by, but the
    > majority accept that they are not in contention for the place. When
    > fifteen out of thrity go to university, then it is an entirely different
    > matter. The failure is felt keenly. Then the wage differentials between
    > university and non-university people begin to fall, and significiant
    > numbers of university people - not the majority, by any means, but a
    > substantial number - begin to feel they are at risk of failing. The
    > natural reaction is to intensify feelings and symbols of superiority.
    > Then of course the quality of the raw students entering the university
    > begins to fall. So the courses have to become less academic. So we get
    > even more intensified snobbery, to compensate for the fact that the real
    > advantages conveyed by the education are not what they were.
    >


    Yes, it is a BIG problem now that education is not only for the
    happy few. Ahhh the good old times, they will never come back again!

    > Computer programming is one of the few professions that you can enter
    > without a degree. However many programmers have degrees. Increasingly
    > university level education is being required, for obvious reasons.
    > Employers are only too happy to hive off training costs to the employee
    > and the state. Employers also want to hire higher status people, and the
    > university attended provides a good filter. There is also, arguably, an
    > ideological function provided by the university. Employees with degrees
    > are much less likely to organise. They can be controlled because they
    > are permanently in a state of candidacy for management positions.
    >
    > However I don't see the real fissure in comp.lang.c as being between
    > those with university education and those without. Maybe I'm wrong here?
    >


    Yes, maybe you are wrong. Maybe you are completely wrong even. Maybe
    you are SO wrong that it is not even worth to waste time to discuss
    your crap.

    This is OFF TOPIC for c.l.c Mr Mclean. Go away and get some education
    for a change and spare us your ignorant diatribes.

    --
    jacob navia
    jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
    logiciels/informatique
    http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
    jacob navia, Nov 23, 2008
    #2
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  3. Kenny McCormack

    jacob navia Guest

    Richard Harter wrote:
    > On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:16:40 +0100, jacob navia
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Malcolm McLean wrote:
    >>> "Kenny McCormack" <> wrote in message
    >>>> The CLC relevance should be obvious. I think it is pretty clear that
    >>>> the hegemony in CLC is falling apart, as is the hegemony of religion in
    >>>> the world at large.
    >>>>
    >>>>> From the Telegraph (UK):
    >>>> Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church,
    >>>> claims bishop
    >>>>
    >>> Education creates a sense of superiority in the educated.
    >>>

    >> Well, Mr Mclean, here we go, disclosing your prejudices. Actually
    >> I do not know if this is cynicism, or just the fact that your
    >> brain capacity seems quite small, education or not.

    >
    > [snip more of the same]
    >
    > I surely do hope that this is satire.
    >


    In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.
    In case he was joking... it was a bad joke.

    Here in France the view of Mr McLean is shared by all instances
    of government.

    Our economy minister told us at the beginning of her term
    that we "think too much". Then, Mr Xarcos, the education minister,
    told us that we have too much education, and he started closing
    schools and laying off teachers by the thousands (30 000 till now,
    and he plans another 10 000 soon).

    Universities costs too much money, told us the minister
    for Research, and started dismantling research institutions.

    Education should be for people that can afford it, that have
    enough money to pay for it. All others shouldn't get any, since
    "we think too much" anyway.

    As Mr McLean said, educated people are dangerous for the
    government. We need more prisons, said the Justice Minister
    (Mme Dati).

    LET'S BUILD MORE PRISONS AND LESS SCHOOLS DAM!

    THAT IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE!




    --
    jacob navia
    jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
    logiciels/informatique
    http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
    jacob navia, Nov 23, 2008
    #3
  4. jacob navia wrote:
    > Richard Harter wrote:
    >> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:16:40 +0100, jacob navia
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Malcolm McLean wrote:
    >>>> "Kenny McCormack" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> The CLC relevance should be obvious. I think it is pretty clear
    >>>>> that the hegemony in CLC is falling apart, as is the hegemony of
    >>>>> religion in the world at large.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> From the Telegraph (UK):
    >>>>> Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church,
    >>>>> claims bishop
    >>>>>
    >>>> Education creates a sense of superiority in the educated.
    >>>>
    >>> Well, Mr Mclean, here we go, disclosing your prejudices. Actually
    >>> I do not know if this is cynicism, or just the fact that your
    >>> brain capacity seems quite small, education or not.

    >>
    >> [snip more of the same]
    >>
    >> I surely do hope that this is satire.
    >>

    >
    > In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.
    > In case he was joking... it was a bad joke.
    >
    > Here in France the view of Mr McLean is shared by all instances
    > of government.
    >
    > Our economy minister told us at the beginning of her term
    > that we "think too much". Then, Mr Xarcos, the education minister,
    > told us that we have too much education, and he started closing
    > schools and laying off teachers by the thousands (30 000 till now,
    > and he plans another 10 000 soon).
    >
    > Universities costs too much money, told us the minister
    > for Research, and started dismantling research institutions.
    >
    > Education should be for people that can afford it, that have
    > enough money to pay for it. All others shouldn't get any, since
    > "we think too much" anyway.
    >
    > As Mr McLean said, educated people are dangerous for the
    > government. We need more prisons, said the Justice Minister
    > (Mme Dati).
    >
    > LET'S BUILD MORE PRISONS AND LESS SCHOOLS DAM!
    >
    > THAT IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE!


    AFAIR France is a democracy, so the majority of people must have voted for
    that government...

    Bye, Jojo
    Joachim Schmitz, Nov 23, 2008
    #4
  5. Kenny McCormack

    jacob navia Guest

    Joachim Schmitz wrote:
    > jacob navia wrote:
    >> Richard Harter wrote:
    >>> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:16:40 +0100, jacob navia
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Malcolm McLean wrote:
    >>>>> "Kenny McCormack" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>> The CLC relevance should be obvious. I think it is pretty clear
    >>>>>> that the hegemony in CLC is falling apart, as is the hegemony of
    >>>>>> religion in the world at large.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> From the Telegraph (UK):
    >>>>>> Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church,
    >>>>>> claims bishop
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Education creates a sense of superiority in the educated.
    >>>>>
    >>>> Well, Mr Mclean, here we go, disclosing your prejudices. Actually
    >>>> I do not know if this is cynicism, or just the fact that your
    >>>> brain capacity seems quite small, education or not.
    >>>
    >>> [snip more of the same]
    >>>
    >>> I surely do hope that this is satire.
    >>>

    >>
    >> In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.
    >> In case he was joking... it was a bad joke.
    >>
    >> Here in France the view of Mr McLean is shared by all instances
    >> of government.
    >>
    >> Our economy minister told us at the beginning of her term
    >> that we "think too much". Then, Mr Xarcos, the education minister,
    >> told us that we have too much education, and he started closing
    >> schools and laying off teachers by the thousands (30 000 till now,
    >> and he plans another 10 000 soon).
    >>
    >> Universities costs too much money, told us the minister
    >> for Research, and started dismantling research institutions.
    >>
    >> Education should be for people that can afford it, that have
    >> enough money to pay for it. All others shouldn't get any, since
    >> "we think too much" anyway.
    >>
    >> As Mr McLean said, educated people are dangerous for the
    >> government. We need more prisons, said the Justice Minister
    >> (Mme Dati).
    >>
    >> LET'S BUILD MORE PRISONS AND LESS SCHOOLS DAM!
    >>
    >> THAT IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE!

    >
    > AFAIR France is a democracy, so the majority of people must have voted
    > for that government...
    >
    > Bye, Jojo


    Yes, the majority (that voted) voted for a candidate that
    promised more purchasing power, less taxes, and many other
    things.

    After the election however, things were slightly different,
    as it comes very often in our great democracies.


    --
    jacob navia
    jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
    logiciels/informatique
    http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
    jacob navia, Nov 23, 2008
    #5
  6. Kenny McCormack

    Flash Gordon Guest

    jacob navia wrote, On 23/11/08 17:46:
    > Richard Harter wrote:
    >> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:16:40 +0100, jacob navia
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Malcolm McLean wrote:


    <snip>

    > In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.


    <snip>

    Jacob, you correctly said in the post before this that it is off-topic
    here. Please drop it or take it up on a group where it is appropriate or
    by email.

    Malcolm, please drop it. This is not topical here.
    --
    Flash Gordon
    If spamming me sent it to
    If emailing me use my reply-to address
    See the comp.lang.c Wiki hosted by me at http://clc-wiki.net/
    Flash Gordon, Nov 23, 2008
    #6
  7. On 23 Nov 2008 at 17:46, jacob navia wrote:
    > Richard Harter wrote:
    >> I surely do hope that this is satire.

    >
    > In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.
    > In case he was joking... it was a bad joke.


    I think you've misinterpreted what Malcolm was saying. He seemed to be
    pointing out that certain social divisions can be caused by different
    people having different levels of education. He didn't (as far as I
    could see) pass a judgment about whether these divisions are a price
    worth paying for mass education. Nor does his opinion seem to be that
    education is a negative thing per se.

    Ultimately, when to draw the lines for education is a fairly arbitrary
    decision. In Illinois, you can leave school at 16, but in Oklahoma you
    have to stay in school till 18. Does that mean that the famously
    broad-minded people in Tulsa value a liberal education, while people
    from Chicago don't want their children to think too much?

    Should everyone study till 14? 16? 18? Should everyone go to a
    university? Or should the state get out of people's faces and LET THEM
    CHOOSE how to live their lives?
    Antoninus Twink, Nov 23, 2008
    #7
  8. Kenny McCormack

    Chad Guest

    On Nov 23, 10:42 am, Antoninus Twink <> wrote:
    > On 23 Nov 2008 at 17:46, jacob navia wrote:
    >
    > > Richard Harter wrote:
    > >> I surely do hope that this is satire.

    >
    > > In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.
    > > In case he was joking... it was a bad joke.

    >
    > I think you've misinterpreted what Malcolm was saying. He seemed to be
    > pointing out that certain social divisions can be caused by different
    > people having different levels of education. He didn't (as far as I
    > could see) pass a judgment about whether these divisions are a price
    > worth paying for mass education. Nor does his opinion seem to be that
    > education is a negative thing per se.
    >
    > Ultimately, when to draw the lines for education is a fairly arbitrary
    > decision. In Illinois, you can leave school at 16, but in Oklahoma you
    > have to stay in school till 18. Does that mean that the famously
    > broad-minded people in Tulsa value a liberal education, while people
    > from Chicago don't want their children to think too much?
    >
    > Should everyone study till 14? 16? 18? Should everyone go to a
    > university? Or should the state get out of people's faces and LET THEM
    > CHOOSE how to live their lives?



    If I remember correctly, I believe it was JWZ, author of the Unix
    version of Netscape said during an interview that "College is for
    those who are too lazy to learn what they care about." It was the same
    interview where he said that he barely passed high school.
    Chad, Nov 23, 2008
    #8
  9. On 23 Nov 2008 at 18:34, Flash Gordon wrote:
    > Please drop it or take it up on a group where it is appropriate or by email.


    You are completel off-base here Flash.

    Kenny explained clearly in his original post what the relevance to clc
    is.
    Antoninus Twink, Nov 23, 2008
    #9
  10. In article <3ThWk.131377$2.easynews.com>,
    Mark McIntyre <> wrote:
    >Malcolm McLean wrote:
    >>
    >> "jacob navia" <> wrote in message
    >>> In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.
    >>> In case he was joking... it was a bad joke.
    >>>

    >> Jacob, when half the population have university degrees and half don't,
    >> it creates huge divisions and resentments.
    >>
    >> I don't have an easy answer. I don't pretend to.

    >
    >Why are you idiots responding to Kenny's troll?


    Because this is a free country?
    Because we've thrown off the shackles of a theocracy, centuries ago?
    Kenny McCormack, Nov 23, 2008
    #10
  11. Kenny McCormack

    CBFalconer Guest

    jacob navia wrote:
    > Richard Harter wrote:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    >> I surely do hope that this is satire.

    >
    > In my answer no, because McLean did not seem to be joking.
    > In case he was joking... it was a bad joke.
    >
    > Here in France the view of Mr McLean is shared by all instances
    > of government.
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > As Mr McLean said, educated people are dangerous for the
    > government. We need more prisons, said the Justice Minister
    > (Mme Dati).
    >
    > LET'S BUILD MORE PRISONS AND LESS SCHOOLS DAM!
    >
    > THAT IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE!


    Yes, yes, yes. And we can use them to hold those that insist on
    posting off-topic material on c.l.c.

    --
    [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    Try the download section.
    CBFalconer, Nov 24, 2008
    #11
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