Efficency and the standard library

B

blmblm

spinoza1111 said:
On Feb 24, 8:09 am, Rob Kendrick <[email protected]> wrote:
[ .... ] Professor Massengill [ .... ]
That's twice -- well, sort of, because this time you came a little
closer to spelling it right, though the variant you chose does
lend a bit of credibility to Seebs's suggestion about whether
the spelling mistake is a simple typo or something else. (I'm
uncertain about whether to add a :) here.)
Please don't imagine that he has any credibility. I was merely too
lazy to check the spelling, and frankly, people have abused my own
name too much for me to be all sensitive.

And yet you don't hesitate to point out others' misspellings, and
to call them -- I forget, is it "illiterate" or "aliterate"?

Give me a break. That reasoning makes no sense. You've got one data
point when my posts are long enough to make the magnitude of the error
1/bigX, whereas other posters are large n over small x. I am often too
lazy to check my spelling. Wanna know why? Because in fact, I'm
literate enough not to have to.

You might want to reconsider this claim -- unless "exagerrate",
"occurence", and "embarass" are variant spellings I'm not aware of.
("occurence" might be a typo, because you also spell it with two r's
in some posts, but the one-r spelling recurs too.)

[ snip ]
 
B

blmblm

[ snip ]
And what do your variable names tell us? Argument from shibboleth and
local tribal custom, not science.


Especially if you're attention disordered and completely unqualified.


And one letter shibboleth names make it easier how?

They don't, but if I have to choose between the two mostly-meaningless
identifiers, the short one, particularly if it's chosen in
accordance with custom [*] (i or j for an integer index, e.g.),
strikes me as easier to read. Others' MMV, I suppose.

[*] Substitute "local tribal custom" or "shibboleth" if you insist.
I'm inclined to think that there is value to conforming to such,
in the absence of compelling reasons not to do so.
You might have a finite number of cognitive resources. I'd watch the M
& Ms. They drain 'em fast. The fact is that reading code is hard, and
a skill you don't seem to possess. Instead of reading code, you prefer
talking to putatively safe third parties about other people's defects.

blm, Julienne, io_x, Ben and others have dived into unfamiliar code
and understood unfamiliar styles because that is part of a
professional programmer's job. I read Willem's code and understood it
although his style is very different from mine. You look at a couple
of variable names and then start assaulting your colleagues.

You may be giving me too much credit here. One reason I did *not*
make more of an effort to fully understand your code (and I think I
was quite explicit in saying, when I posted about the bug I found,
that I had not done so) was that I find its style off-putting.

[ snip ]
 
B

blmblm

"spinoza1111" scritto nel messaggio
#io_x
"spinoza1111" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel
messaggio#io_x
...latest code...

<snip>

In view of the face that NO OTHER POSTER (to my knowledge) has met the
requirements (code a string replace function without string.h usage) I
hereby declare victory, and award myself the Golden Spinoza Order of
Purity and Truth har har.
#i find hard my code only at first see
#but if i think about it, i find it readable and easy
#

io_x, what are you doing? You appear to have stolen my prose and
posted as your own. Are you sure you want to do that? It will make you
look smart in the eyes of the wise, but you'll be attacked by dogs.

#it is only one not conventional way of quote because my news reader not
#show the ">" for your text and i would write manually all these ">".
#so in the first lines there is the way of one read all:
#["spinoza1111"...] so what have no quote is by "spinoza1111"
#[#io_x...] so what has "#" is what i wrote
#[>"spinoza1111"] so what has one ">" quote is by "spinoza1111"
#[> #io_x...] so what has ">" quote and # is what i wrote

What newsreader is this that apparently doesn't make it easy
to quote properly? hm, the headers for your post say "Outlook
Express" .... I have zero experience with OE but sometimes come
across references to something called a "quote fix" patch or
extension or add-on or something. Might be worth investigating?
because ....

As I just wrote in response to another spinoza1111 post, I think
there is value in conforming to "local tribal custom", such as
quoting styles. My first reaction to your post was "why are there
two copies of this post by spinoza1111?"; it wasn't until I got
to the first block of text with "#" at the left that I realized
it was a reply using an unusual way of distinguishing quoted from
new text. So I think you would be smart to try to choose tools that
make it easier for you to follow custom. My opinion, of course.

[ snip ]
 
B

blmblm

[ snip ]
Not with a bang but a whimper, or a shrug, huh?

No idea what you mean here, sorry.
As it happened, and as you should know, I decided to respond to
Peter's errors (not searching for %s and using strchr and not strstr)
to show programming at a much higher level than script kiddiedom.
Since Nul terminated strings are a mistake, I decided to show how
optional string.h is. This created an interesting challenge for the
real coders here, and a lot of mockery from our local attention
disordered script kiddie.

I suppose there is some value in asking whether one can solve a
given problem without using standard tools, but to me it seems
like expressing one's ideas in rhyming and/or metrical verse --
an interesting challenge, but one that a reasonable person might
decline on the grounds that it isn't of practical value.
But obviously, you're entirely too dainty to serve this ng by helping
to eradicate people who come in here to advance their low sense of
self worth by destroying others in a zero-sum game. Like Obama allows
Israel to piss on his face, in my view.

It's not so much not a matter of being too dainty [*] as of not
agreeing with your assessment of the discussion here. The "many
against one" aspects are sometimes troubling, but then there are
aspects of your behavior that I find troubling as well, so I'm
disinclined to be very vocal in support of either side.

[*] I suppose one could make a case for the idea that I'm
disinclined in general to engage in anything resembling a flame
war. Call it caution about posting something that might have
unpleasant outside-Usenet consequences, maybe. What would I do
if I truly believed flames were called for .... I don't know.
I'm not sure it has ever come up.
 
S

Seebs

[*] Substitute "local tribal custom" or "shibboleth" if you insist.
I'm inclined to think that there is value to conforming to such,
in the absence of compelling reasons not to do so.

There is, assuming we believe that things which consistently produce
measurable benefits are considered to have "value".
[nilges]
You might have a finite number of cognitive resources.

Everyone does. (There are people who believe in one or more exceptions,
but with extremely rare exceptions, those are not believed to be humans.)

Actually, I enjoy reading code, and I'm quite good at it in general.

That doesn't mean I want it to be gratuitously hard.

I can read IOCCC entries, I can read kernel code, whatever. But if I
am going to write code, I usually write it with the intent that "reading
the code" takes as little effort as possible.

It's perhaps worth pointing out that I have at no point assaulted a
colleague. I've criticized badly-written code, but I would at no point
call Nilges a "colleague" in any conventional sense. Someone who is
not only totally incompetent at writing C, but proud of it and inclined
to claim that it is the language's fault for not matching his
preconceptions, does not qualify as a "colleague". I'll stand by
newbie programmers, but not by people who should no better and refuse
to out of spite and pride.
You may be giving me too much credit here. One reason I did *not*
make more of an effort to fully understand your code (and I think I
was quite explicit in saying, when I posted about the bug I found,
that I had not done so) was that I find its style off-putting.

The style gave you an accurate picture of the underlying code. Correcting
the massive "stylistic" flaws would lead to a program which was still
fundamentally badly-written. As is often the case, the two are correlated,
and not by mere coincidence.

-s
 
S

Seebs

I suppose there is some value in asking whether one can solve a
given problem without using standard tools, but to me it seems
like expressing one's ideas in rhyming and/or metrical verse --
an interesting challenge, but one that a reasonable person might
decline on the grounds that it isn't of practical value.

More importantly, it's self-contradictory. If nul-terminated strings
are such a bad idea, why not implement *something else*, rather than
reimplementing them with several bugs?
[*] I suppose one could make a case for the idea that I'm
disinclined in general to engage in anything resembling a flame
war. Call it caution about posting something that might have
unpleasant outside-Usenet consequences, maybe. What would I do
if I truly believed flames were called for .... I don't know.
I'm not sure it has ever come up.

I've mostly come to share this view. If we were on a forum where threads
were pulled by users rather than pushed to all users, I'd happily spend
time "debating" Nilges just for the humor value, but as is, "arguing"
with him is a waste of time and annoys the pig.

-s
 
S

spinoza1111

I suppose there is some value in asking whether one can solve a
given problem without using standard tools, but to me it seems
like expressing one's ideas in rhyming and/or metrical verse --
an interesting challenge, but one that a reasonable person might
decline on the grounds that it isn't of practical value.

More importantly, it's self-contradictory.  If nul-terminated strings
are such a bad idea, why not implement *something else*, rather than
reimplementing them with several bugs?
[*] I suppose one could make a case for the idea that I'm
disinclined in general to engage in anything resembling a flame
war.  Call it caution about posting something that might have
unpleasant outside-Usenet consequences, maybe.  What would I do
if I truly believed flames were called for ....  I don't know.
I'm not sure it has ever come up.

I've mostly come to share this view.  If we were on a forum where threads
were pulled by users rather than pushed to all users, I'd happily spend
time "debating" Nilges just for the humor value, but as is, "arguing"
with him is a waste of time and annoys the pig.

But you are, in a cowardly way. You are addressing third parties and
making utterly unjustified, overly global, and false claims about me
in a way that is ill-mannered and that in an era when common decency
was more common, would have gotten you tapped on the back, spun
around, and punched out.
 
S

spinoza1111

[*] Substitute "local tribal custom" or "shibboleth" if you insist.
I'm inclined to think that there is value to conforming to such,
in the absence of compelling reasons not to do so.

There is, assuming we believe that things which consistently produce
measurable benefits are considered to have "value".
[nilges]
You might have a finite number of cognitive resources.

Everyone does.  (There are people who believe in one or more exceptions,
but with extremely rare exceptions, those are not believed to be humans.)

Actually, I enjoy reading code, and I'm quite good at it in general.

That doesn't mean I want it to be gratuitously hard.

I can read IOCCC entries, I can read kernel code, whatever.  But if I
am going to write code, I usually write it with the intent that "reading
the code" takes as little effort as possible.

It's perhaps worth pointing out that I have at no point assaulted a
colleague.  I've criticized badly-written code, but I would at no point
call Nilges a "colleague" in any conventional sense.  Someone who is
not only totally incompetent at writing C, but proud of it and inclined
to claim that it is the language's fault for not matching his
preconceptions, does not qualify as a "colleague".  I'll stand by
newbie programmers, but not by people who should no better and refuse
to out of spite and pride.
You may be giving me too much credit here.  One reason I did *not*
make more of an effort to fully understand your code (and I think I
was quite explicit in saying, when I posted about the bug I found,
that I had not done so) was that I find its style off-putting.

The style gave you an accurate picture of the underlying code.  Correcting
the massive "stylistic" flaws would lead to a program which was still
fundamentally badly-written.  As is often the case, the two are correlated,
and not by mere coincidence.

What bothered you about the style was that even the first edition,
which had about five bugs, showed a diligence and care which you don't
have (#define A and then use its definition and not the name?). You
instead have been socialized to be a people and management pleaser by
never writing anything complete or correct because in the corporation,
that takes too much of the labor time which has been stolen from you
by the corporation.

The very idea that I might wrap a text in a comment box or write a
dedicatory poem asserts here that I am a free man, and you're a slave,
because you can't even take enough time to do a proper job even when
you're coding here, for fun. And even if you take enough time (two
months) you can't get a switch statement coded properly.

Elegance of style with "frills" is in fact an assertion that I'm so
competent that I can take the time, but none of you pussies dares make
this claim since you're programmers in name only and by grace and
favor of those who have feasts on the backsides of beasts.

This is why I was able to write a compiler of 26K lines, using a
language (Visual Basic .Net) not ordinarily thought suitable for this
purpose, while living in motels and working part time to get the job
done. There's a big case statement (the VB version of a switch()
statement) in that code, and in all cases, it defines a function when
there's common logic, for two reasons. One is that fallthrough isn't
supported because it's not needed and it's unstructured. The other is
that creating a function is always a reality check.

Had VB .Net had either inline or macro facilities, I probably would
have used those.

If you had any balls, you'd learn VB .Net, and find the bugs in this
compiler, even as I've relearned C in order to kick your ass. You'd
learn how to write a compiler and a language which is, despite its
flaws, more modern, more truly standard, and more reliable than C,
which does not (cf. the mono project) have to run on Microsoft
operating systems.
 
S

spinoza1111

spinoza1111  said:
[ snip ]
Not with a bang but a whimper, or a shrug, huh?

No idea what you mean here, sorry.
As it happened, and as you should know, I decided to respond to
Peter's errors (not searching for %s and using strchr and not strstr)
to show programming at a much higher level than script kiddiedom.
Since Nul terminated strings are a mistake, I decided to show how
optional string.h is. This created an interesting challenge for the
real coders here, and a lot of mockery from our local attention
disordered script kiddie.

I suppose there is some value in asking whether one can solve a
given problem without using standard tools, but to me it seems
like expressing one's ideas in rhyming and/or metrical verse --
an interesting challenge, but one that a reasonable person might
decline on the grounds that it isn't of practical value.

Actually, for thousands of years world-wide and even today, mastering
the writing of verse was an important part of education and it's
making a comeback, since it's a way to learn language. No matter what
the technical subject, in China, for thousands of years, engineers
with classical training outdid the West because, owing to the
Confucian doctrine of "the rectification of names", they knew (as
people here don't) that being able to document is integral to
engineering and not a frill.

Whereas here, sloppy English causes people to join mobs and to bully
others because they no longer can express themselves. For example,
Peter could never (not in a million years) write with the clarity he
admits of Schildt about C.

He'd start out raving about how to code a main() procedure as if we
give a ****, trail off, and then say it's undefined.

Whereas I can transform any statement about C into iambic pentameter.
Here goes.

"C exists in multiple incompatible versions because the Standard
leaves too much undefined"

The language C exists, you see, don't you
In more than one version and dialect
The Standard should have this rectified
But owing to vendor cupidity, and stupidity
The Standard left too much undefined.
When the going gets tough the tough get going:
They account it a challenge, from on high:
They stiffen the sinews and summon up the blood,
They imitate the action of the Hyrcanian tiger,
They tread upon toes and rush in where angels
Of high and fearless rank do fear to tread.
But the coward goes along to get along,
He treads the poltroonish and not puissant pike,
As too heavy a burden to bear.
He fears the name and form of man,
As sparrows eagles, as children bogeys,
As women mice, as churls the true prince.
This is the way the world shall end:
Not with a bang, but a whimper, my friend.


"Don't compete with me. I have more experience, and I choose the
weapons" - Dijkstra
 
S

spinoza1111

[ snip ]
And what do your variable names tell us? Argument from shibboleth and
local tribal custom, not science.
Especially if you're attention disordered and completely unqualified.
And one letter shibboleth names make it easier how?

They don't, but if I have to choose between the two mostly-meaningless
identifiers, the short one, particularly if it's chosen in
accordance with custom [*] (i or j for an integer index, e.g.),
strikes me as easier to read.  Others' MMV, I suppose.

[*] Substitute "local tribal custom" or "shibboleth" if you insist.
I'm inclined to think that there is value to conforming to such,
in the absence of compelling reasons not to do so.




You might have a finite number of cognitive resources. I'd watch the M
& Ms. They drain 'em fast. The fact is that reading code is hard, and
a skill you don't seem to possess. Instead of reading code, you prefer
talking to putatively safe third parties about other people's defects.
blm, Julienne, io_x, Ben and others have dived into unfamiliar code
and understood unfamiliar styles because that is part of a
professional programmer's job. I read Willem's code and understood it
although his style is very different from mine. You look at a couple
of variable names and then start assaulting your colleagues.

You may be giving me too much credit here.  One reason I did *not*
make more of an effort to fully understand your code (and I think I
was quite explicit in saying, when I posted about the bug I found,
that I had not done so) was that I find its style off-putting.

Most technical people below a low level of ability agree with you, for
they've self-selected themselves for the field based on low verbal
accomplishment in schools where instead of being forced to remediate
their verbal abilities, they were tossed aside like garbage. My style
is off-putting because I use complete and often complex sentences in
comments, I write dedicatory poems and I use vowels in data names to
aid pronunciation in structured walkthrus and pair programs.

This style was more characteristic of the most competent generation of
older programmers, including Knuth.

Unfortunately, low verbal ability ordinarily translates into an
unnoticed because normalized incompetence and lack of professional
ethics such as are manifest in Seebach.

Your opinion, nor the opinions of a normalized-deviant community,
cannot in the end control. Even if most contemporary programmers hate
my code because they are aliterate, it would be to betray myself and
"my" truth to code in a different style unless I have contracted, for
a consideration, not to.

Have you noticed, Ms M, that I don't come in here to win a popularity
contest?
 
S

spinoza1111

spinoza1111  said:
[ snip ]
[ .... ] Professor Massengill [ .... ]
That's twice -- well, sort of, because this time you came a little
closer to spelling it right, though the variant you chose does
lend a bit of credibility to Seebs's suggestion about whether
the spelling mistake is a simple typo or something else.  (I'm
uncertain about whether to add a :) here.)
Please don't imagine that he has any credibility. I was merely too
lazy to check the spelling, and frankly, people have abused my own
name too much for me to be all sensitive.
And yet you don't hesitate to point out others' misspellings, and
to call them -- I forget, is it "illiterate" or "aliterate"?  

"Aliterate" is a real word. I first read it in the New York times
(search for it at their site): it means "able but unwilling to read
and write, replaces reading and writing with media". Usually, the
misspellings I decide to point out are revelatory of a much deeper
level of misunderstanding.
You might want to reconsider this claim -- unless "exagerrate",
"occurence", and "embarass" are variant spellings I'm not aware of.
("occurence" might be a typo, because you also spell it with two r's
in some posts, but the one-r spelling recurs too.)

I spend quite enough time here casting pearls before swine to check
spelling all the time when my newsreader underscores words in red, and
this in fact seldom happens. Do me the courtesy of not so consistently
confusing the trivial and important in what I've called corporate
commodity fetishism, in which equivocation of concepts is the
victimizing of people. Do me the courtesy of addressing the real
problems in this newsgroup, which is the bullying of qualified and
literate people by aliterate and incompetent thugs.

Orthography is the least reliable marker of literacy, although it's
important in formal writing. Far more important is knowing why in fact
"part of the problem are people" is correct and that in a final draft
this needs to be changed to "people are part of the problem".

Corporate females charged with bear-leading programmers often believe,
in my experience, that they are the most literate person in the room.
I am afraid that this is not the case here.

I don't need to check my spelling because the words, whether spelled
canonically or not, are usually so apposite as to be quite natural
even in the "wrong" spelling.
 
B

blmblm

[ snip ]
Actually, for thousands of years world-wide and even today, mastering
the writing of verse was an important part of education

Ah yes -- pedagogical value. I did neglect to mention that (so --
thanks for reminding me, maybe). The original string-replacement
problem might indeed be a nice problem for someone learning
programming, or C, and adding the constraint that it be solved
without using particular library functions might increase the,
well, pedagogical value.
and it's
making a comeback, since it's a way to learn language. No matter what
the technical subject, in China, for thousands of years, engineers
with classical training outdid the West because, owing to the
Confucian doctrine of "the rectification of names", they knew (as
people here don't) that being able to document is integral to
engineering and not a frill.

[ snip ]
 
B

blmblm

[ snip ]

If you say so. I can't claim to be, or to have ever been, a
professional programmer, or even to have a complete understanding
of what such people do. In a long-ago previous life I did get
paid for working on code, but at the time I had little enough
relevant education and experience that "professional programmer"
might have been a stretch. My employers liked me because I had
some specific background they found useful, and I was (am?) good
at finding and fixing bugs. But "professional programmer" --
eh, I don't know. I'm apt to say "I'm not so much a hacker [in
the original sense] as a hack programmer" -- though one who does
enjoy tinkering with code. said:
Most technical people below a low level of ability agree with you, for
they've self-selected themselves for the field based on low verbal
accomplishment in schools where instead of being forced to remediate
their verbal abilities, they were tossed aside like garbage. My style
is off-putting because I use complete and often complex sentences in
comments, I write dedicatory poems and I use vowels in data names to
aid pronunciation in structured walkthrus and pair programs.

Long variable and function names are not in themselves necessarily
off-putting; I find Java's verbosity sometimes a bit over the top,
but the convention of long and descriptive names does mean that
one can often make an accurate guess about what a variable is, or a
function does, based simply on its name, and I think that has value.
Long names that consist almost exclusively of type information,
however -- not so much.

As for the verse .... Ah well. If it were more metrical, and the
content were different, I might actually find it a pleasant addition.
As it is -- not so much. Purely my opinion, though, since I am not
by training or inclination a literary critic.

Getting back to names, though -- I think there is a useful distinction
to be made between, say, ptrIndex1 and ptrIndexIntoMaster. To me the
latter might still be a bit off-putting, but it might also convey
enough information to make up for the verbosity.
This style was more characteristic of the most competent generation of
older programmers, including Knuth.

Unfortunately, low verbal ability ordinarily translates into an
unnoticed because normalized incompetence and lack of professional
ethics such as are manifest in Seebach.

Your opinion, nor the opinions of a normalized-deviant community,
cannot in the end control. Even if most contemporary programmers hate
my code because they are aliterate, it would be to betray myself and
"my" truth to code in a different style unless I have contracted, for
a consideration, not to.

Have you noticed, Ms M, that I don't come in here to win a popularity
contest?

Even someone who doesn't care about winning popularity contests
might care about whether he/she was communicating effectively
with his/her audience. (I suspect you don't, but hope springs
eternal, maybe.) Writing for a hypothetical reader who shares
your interests and background rather than for your actual readers --
ah well, to me it doesn't seem like the best use of anyone's
time, but if that's how you want to spend some of your 168 hours
per week, well -- <shrug>.
 
B

blmblm

[ snip ]
I spend quite enough time here casting pearls before swine to check
spelling all the time when my newsreader underscores words in red,

Good heavens. Your newsreader actually shows you possible typos,
and you don't fix them? I had assumed you didn't have easy
access to automatic spelling checking, and didn't go to extra
trouble (cutting and pasting text into something that would check
spelling, e.g.) because you were right often enough to make it
not worthwhile. Maybe I'm projecting, though -- I mean, with the
tool I use to compose posts, it would be extra trouble to check
spelling, and for Usenet posts I don't bother, since I'm willing
to commit the occasional typo, however embarrassing. If it were
zero trouble to check, though .... Eh. Whatever.

(I think there's something else wrong with the part of your sentence
above, but -- also "whatever". Skitt's Law [*] may apply.)

[*] I was going to cite the Wikipedia article for it, but either
I only imagined that there was one, or it has disappeared.
Well, GIYF.
and
this in fact seldom happens. Do me the courtesy of not so consistently
confusing the trivial and important in what I've called corporate
commodity fetishism, in which equivocation of concepts is the
victimizing of people. Do me the courtesy of addressing the real
problems in this newsgroup, which is the bullying of qualified and
literate people by aliterate and incompetent thugs.

Orthography is the least reliable marker of literacy, although it's
important in formal writing.

To me this statement seems inconsistent with some of the things you
have said about other posters. Just sayin', I guess, but that was my
point.
Far more important is knowing why in fact
"part of the problem are people" is correct

It will be interesting to find out what the folks in alt.usage.english
have to say about that.
and that in a final draft
this needs to be changed to "people are part of the problem".
Corporate females charged with bear-leading programmers often believe,
in my experience, that they are the most literate person in the room.
I am afraid that this is not the case here.

Quite -- because I certainly am not a "corporate female", nor have
I ever been "charged with bear-leading programmers". The closest
I've come to that -- and I admit I'm uncertain about exactly what
the duties of a "bear-leader" might be -- was a short period, in
a long-ago industry job, during which I was asked to train a new
addition to a group I worked in. But considering the nature of
the work done by the group (rather specialized mainframe-sysadmin
stuff), I doubt that fits your term.

(Yes, yes, I do rather suspect that your real point was that
you don't think I write very well. I probably don't. I think
I'm pretty good with details -- better in fact than many of my
colleagues, for whom it's apparently not a priority -- but not
 
S

Seebs

Good heavens. Your newsreader actually shows you possible typos,
and you don't fix them?
Wow.

(I think there's something else wrong with the part of your sentence
above, but -- also "whatever". Skitt's Law [*] may apply.)

[*] I was going to cite the Wikipedia article for it, but either
I only imagined that there was one, or it has disappeared.
Well, GIYF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

[sic.]
Do me the courtesy of addressing the real
problems in this newsgroup, which is the bullying of qualified and
literate people by aliterate and incompetent thugs.
Orthography is the least reliable marker of literacy, although it's
important in formal writing.
To me this statement seems inconsistent with some of the things you
have said about other posters. Just sayin', I guess, but that was my
point.

Actually, I think he does have a significant point. For instance,
consider that an aliterate and incompetent thug spends a great deal of
his time bullying qualified and literate people. Partially because you
keep responding to him. :p
It will be interesting to find out what the folks in alt.usage.english
have to say about that.

It certainly doesn't sound correct to me, but hey.

I don't think I would agree with this. There is a substantial difference
in communicative content between:
part of the problem is X
and
X is part of the problem

(This gets back to the whole topic/comment distinction discussed previously.)
Quite -- because I certainly am not a "corporate female",

I think "corporate" is his way of saying that you have not deferred to his
opinions sufficiently.
(Yes, yes, I do rather suspect that your real point was that
you don't think I write very well. I probably don't. I think
I'm pretty good with details -- better in fact than many of my
colleagues, for whom it's apparently not a priority -- but not
so good with organization and content. <shrug>)

Well, I think you write real pretty.

*snerk*

Actually, he doesn't need to check his spelling because the marginal harm
to credibility done by misspelling so many words so often is essentially
lost in the noise compared to the effects of the content.

But it does fit with the general trend towards pathological narcissism
for him to imagine himself a particularly skilled and evocative writer.
Usenet kooks are usually extremely pleased with their own writing and its
effect. This is because their only standard for judging the effectiveness
or quality of writing is their own emotional response to it, and they always
respond positively to themselves.

-s
 
B

BruceS

(I think there's something else wrong with the part of your sentence
above, but -- also "whatever".  Skitt's Law [*] may apply.)

[*] I was going to cite the Wikipedia article for it, but either
I only imagined that there was one, or it has disappeared.
Well, GIYF.

I thought "GIYF" looked vaguely familiar, but didn't recall what it
stood for. So I went to Google, typed in "acronym GIYF"...you get the
picture. After all, GIYF. There is a reference to Skitt's Law in the
Wikipedia page for Muphry's Law, essentially the same thing.

It will be interesting to find out what the folks in alt.usage.english
have to say about that.

That was well handled, and I thank you for pointing out the change to
follow-ups.
(Yes, yes, I do rather suspect that your real point was that
you don't think I write very well.  I probably don't.

FWIW, I find your writing clear. You generally seem able to
communicate your meaning, which I consider an important part of
writing. Obfuscation may be entertaining, and verse may have some
purpose, but communication is IMNSHO more important.
 
B

blmblm

[ snip ]
(I think there's something else wrong with the part of your sentence
above, but -- also "whatever". Skitt's Law [*] may apply.)

[*] I was going to cite the Wikipedia article for it, but either
I only imagined that there was one, or it has disappeared.
Well, GIYF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

Yeah, but I think that one doesn't explain the origins of the "Skitt's
Law" name, as the article I'm either remembering or imagining did.
("Skitt" is a long-time participant in alt.usage.english, and I was
familiar with the "Skitt's law" phrase from that group, and startled
to find that it had its own Wikipedia page. There's still an entry
of sorts for "Skitt's Law", but it redirects to the above page.)

[ snip ]

[ snip ]
I don't think I would agree with this. There is a substantial difference
in communicative content between:
part of the problem is X
and
X is part of the problem

(This gets back to the whole topic/comment distinction discussed previously.)

Was that the one about whether "x == y" and "y == x" should be regarded
as completely interchangeable? if so, I was rather skeptical about
your position on that, but here, yeah, I think there *is* a difference
in emphasis.

[ snip ]

(A "thanks for the vote of confidence", by the way, to both you and
BruceS, who were kind enough to disagree with my self-deprecating
comments about my writing.)
 
S

spinoza1111

spinoza1111  said:
[ snip ]
I spend quite enough time here casting pearls before swine to check
spelling all the time when my newsreader underscores words in red,

Good heavens.  Your newsreader actually shows you possible typos,
and you don't fix them?  

No, because as I've said, I waste too much time already casting pearls
before swine, and de minimis non curat lex. Your ignorance of the
grammar of "to be" is de maximubbubimustcal, whereas orthography (cf
Shakespeare or any of his contemporaries) is minimis, Miss.
Furthermore, I know more than the spelling checker, which has just
flagged my Latin (both correct and humorous), and flags "aliterate".
I had assumed you didn't have easy
access to automatic spelling checking, and didn't go to extra
trouble (cutting and pasting text into something that would check
spelling, e.g.) because you were right often enough to make it
not worthwhile.  Maybe I'm projecting, though -- I mean, with the
tool I use to compose posts, it would be extra trouble to check
spelling, and for Usenet posts I don't bother, since I'm willing
to commit the occasional typo, however embarrassing.  If it were
zero trouble to check, though ....  Eh.  Whatever.

Well, you're getting it. It is inconvenient to go to another window,
and if I genuinely need a word, I prefer to use my compact OED. I have
been thinking about buying access to the full OED to support my
teaching, but it would still be in another window. However, point
taken: I need to check spelling a bit more often, because I am such a
literate person, and must, like Violet Bucket, Keep Up Appearances in
order to always do justice to the Reality.


(I think there's something else wrong with the part of your sentence
above, but -- also "whatever".  Skitt's Law [*] may apply.)

"I spend quite enough time here casting pearls before swine to check
spelling all the time when my newsreader underscores words in
red..."...no, just a complex sentence above the low lower bound of
complexity understood by most techs.

I spend quite enough time, here, casting pearls before swine, to check
spelling (all the time) when my newsreader underscores words in red.

This is how it would appear in my second draft of a formal article.
Here it is as a sonnet.

I spend quite enough of the golden time
Which runneth before us in the spring,
Casting Orient pearls 'fore Gadarene swine
To be concerned with every little thing.
There are details which are important,
And God is in them, such is sure
And there are details which just ain't
And there the Devil is, and th'impure.
God is in the details, said Mies der Rohe
But commoner 'tis said the Devil's there
So who is wrong and who is right, hey?
Best to know where why and wheretofore.
Spelling gude we understood to be
Something that's oft a trivial vanity.

(Betcha didn't know I was a poet. Probably thought I was just a jag.)
[*] I was going to cite the Wikipedia article for it, but either
I only imagined that there was one, or it has disappeared.
Well, GIYF.

Gee why I eff?
I would not know, Jeff.
To me this statement seems inconsistent with some of the things you
have said about other posters.  Just sayin', I guess, but that was my
point.

I do think certain spelling errors are significant "Freudian slips".
It will be interesting to find out what the folks in alt.usage.english
have to say about that.

I don't really care what a bunch of vicious children have to say, but
it might be fun to go over there and humiliate the lot of them.
Anyway, my sources are neither Google Groups nor Wikipedia. Try Modern
English Usage.
Quite -- because I certainly am not a "corporate female", nor have
I ever been "charged with bear-leading programmers".  The closest
I've come to that -- and I admit I'm uncertain about exactly what
the duties of a "bear-leader" might be -- was a short period, in
a long-ago industry job, during which I was asked to train a new
addition to a group I worked in.  But considering the nature of
the work done by the group (rather specialized mainframe-sysadmin
stuff), I doubt that fits your term.

(Yes, yes, I do rather suspect that your real point was that
you don't think I write very well.  I probably don't.  I think
I'm pretty good with details -- better in fact than many of my
colleagues, for whom it's apparently not a priority -- but not
so good with organization and content.  <shrug>)

Actually I think you write the best of anyone here, save for myself.
But I also know that the upper bound is set low because people able to
write above that level usually see corporate and academic life as a
death sentence.
"Don't compete with me. I have more experience, and I choose the
weapons." - Dijkstra
 
S

spinoza1111

spinoza1111  said:
[ snip ]

If you say so.  I can't claim to be, or to have ever been, a
professional programmer, or even to have a complete understanding
of what such people do.  In a long-ago previous life I did get
paid for working on code, but at the time I had little enough
relevant education and experience that "professional programmer"
might have been a stretch.  My employers liked me because I had
some specific background they found useful, and I was (am?) good
at finding and fixing bugs.  But "professional programmer" --
eh, I don't know.  I'm apt to say "I'm not so much a hacker [in
the original sense] as a hack programmer" -- though one who does
enjoy tinkering with code.  <shrug>




Most technical people below a low level of ability agree with you, for
they've self-selected themselves for the field based on low verbal
accomplishment in schools where instead of being forced to remediate
their verbal abilities, they were tossed aside like garbage. My style
is off-putting because I use complete and often complex sentences in
comments, I write dedicatory poems and I use vowels in data names to
aid pronunciation in structured walkthrus and pair programs.

Long variable and function names are not in themselves necessarily
off-putting; I find Java's verbosity sometimes a bit over the top,
but the convention of long and descriptive names does mean that
one can often make an accurate guess about what a variable is, or a
function does, based simply on its name, and I think that has value.
Long names that consist almost exclusively of type information,
however -- not so much.

For the most part, my variable names have three characters of type and
at least five of meaning.
As for the verse ....  Ah well.  If it were more metrical, and the
content were different, I might actually find it a pleasant addition.
As it is -- not so much.  Purely my opinion, though, since I am not
by training or inclination a literary critic.

I don't think you know what "metrical" means. Some of Shakespeare is
completely metrical in the mechanical sense:

So shaken as we are, so wan with care,
Finde we a time for frighted Peace to pant,
And breath shortwinded accents of new broils
To be commenc'd in Stronds a-farre remote:
No more the thirsty entrance of this Soile,
Shall daube her lippes with her owne childrens blood:
No more shall trenching Warre channell her fields,
Nor bruise her Flowrets with the Armed hoofes
Of hostile paces. Those opposed eyes,
Which like the Meteors of a troubled Heauen,
All of one Nature, of one Substance bred,
Did lately meete in the intestine shocke,
And furious cloze of ciuill Butchery,
Shall now in mutuall well-beseeming rankes
March all one way, and be no more oppos'd
Against Acquaintance, Kindred, and Allies.

But not all:

Those parts of thee that the world's eye doth view
Want nothing that the thought of hearts can mend;

Although "those parts of thee" is an iambic dimeter, "that the" cannot
be a third iamb, because "the" is never stressed in ordinary speech.
Is it an anapest? But this would isolate "eye" since "doth view" is a
clear iamb. No, it's an unusual "double iamb".

Shakespeare could have made the first line a perfect iambic
pentameter:

Those parts of thee the world's sweet eye doth view

but he would then be beholden by his own art to somehow explain any
adjective chosen, and that's not the point at all of sonnet 69:

Those parts of thee that the world's eye doth view
Want nothing that the thought of hearts can mend;
All tongues, the voice of souls, give thee that due,
Uttering bare truth, even so as foes commend.
Thy outward thus with outward praise is crown'd;
But those same tongues that give thee so thine own
In other accents do this praise confound
By seeing farther than the eye hath shown.
They look into the beauty of thy mind,
And that, in guess, they measure by thy deeds;
Then, churls, their thoughts, although their eyes were kind,
To thy fair flower add the rank smell of weeds:
But why thy odour matcheth not thy show,
The solve is this, that thou dost common grow.

Pedants today insist on a beat that Shakespeare would find over-
regular. And common readers such as yourself, post-Holocaust, are
reluctant to read poetry. Given the ugliness of speech today in shitty
little offices and here, it's too painful for people to be reminded of
what's been destroyed. And, the educated have learned certain catch-
phrases for concealing their unwillingness and pain. They say prose is
"verbose", and that poetry has the wrong metre.

But I say that 'tho Shakespeare learnt the rules in school,
He did not need to summon them up to mind,
For common folk then needed no rule
To help them speak in iambs refined.
Mere hope iamb sprung then like the Lamb
On England's green and pleasant land:
Today, she's a posh tart nam'd Hope
Who was introduced to the Pope.

Getting back to names, though -- I think there is a useful distinction
to be made between, say, ptrIndex1 and ptrIndexIntoMaster.  To me the
latter might still be a bit off-putting, but it might also convey
enough information to make up for the verbosity.

Agreed, but for something I considered possibly before you were born:
that sometimes it's possible to be over-meaningful. You see, I might
wish to use the index for different, non-interfering purposes.
Even someone who doesn't care about winning popularity contests
might care about whether he/she was communicating effectively
with his/her audience.  (I suspect you don't, but hope springs
eternal, maybe.)  Writing for a hypothetical reader who shares
your interests and background rather than for your actual readers --
ah well, to me it doesn't seem like the best use of anyone's
time, but if that's how you want to spend some of your 168 hours
per week, well -- <shrug>.

I write, and think, much faster than that, and the regs aren't the
only people here. I might be writing for succeeding generations as
they wise up (and this is not meant to be vanity, it's quite common in
the history of literature). I also write to self-clarify my ideas.

But here I do expect to get Peter to be either disciplined or
apologize. Everything excellent is as difficult as it is rare.
 
S

spinoza1111

Seebs   said:
[ snip ]
(I think there's something else wrong with the part of your sentence
above, but -- also "whatever".  Skitt's Law [*] may apply.)
[*] I was going to cite the Wikipedia article for it, but either
I only imagined that there was one, or it has disappeared.
Well, GIYF.

Yeah, but I think that one doesn't explain the origins of the "Skitt's
Law" name, as the article I'm either remembering or imagining did.
("Skitt" is a long-time participant in alt.usage.english, and I was
familiar with the "Skitt's law" phrase from that group, and startled
to find that it had its own Wikipedia page.  There's still an entry
of sorts for "Skitt's Law", but it redirects to the above page.)

[ snip ]

[ snip ]
I don't think I would agree with this.  There is a substantial difference
in communicative content between:
   part of the problem is X
and
   X is part of the problem
(This gets back to the whole topic/comment distinction discussed previously.)

Was that the one about whether "x == y" and "y == x" should be regarded
as completely interchangeable?  if so, I was rather skeptical about
your position on that, but here, yeah, I think there *is* a difference
in emphasis.

Which is why I or a competent editor would change "part of the problem
are people" to "people are part of the problem". If there's a who-
clause as in "part of the problem are people who don't know shit" then
you move the who, too: "people who don't know shit are part of the
problem", or "people who don't know their ass from a hole in the
ground are part of the problem", or "people, such as Seebach, who act
unprofessionally and then claim that here they can shit on people and
think to get away with it, are part of the problem", or

Some people are part of the problem,
People who claim indulgences for themselves,
Who come in here, and say, ahem,
Look at my code, you trolls and you elves.
So we look at the code of the toad who assaulted Herb
It's like something abandoned on the side of the road at the kerb,
And we say, 'twon't work and it sucks, and then the Clown replies
I have an attention disorder and needs your charities...
And we say but look what you did
To the good name of Herbert and Syd!
[ snip ]

(A "thanks for the vote of confidence", by the way, to both you and
BruceS, who were kind enough to disagree with my self-deprecating
comments about my writing.)  

Yes, let's always make sure we're part of a gang. As Jaron Lanier
writes, we all have an inner troll who wants to circle the Chosen One.
 

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