Forcing 'Submit'

[Whitecrest]

As the Subject line says, he wanted to know how to _force_ 'Submit'.
No, he doesn't, that should be apparent.

You have to forgive Jukka and a few others. They live in a strange
world where everything is black and white. There can never be anything
gray. Accessibility, Javascript, Flash, force. You must either be
black or white... 100% or nothing.

Totally unrealistic fantasy world.

 

[David Dorward]

You have to forgive Jukka and a few others. They live in a strange
world where everything is black and white. There can never be anything
gray. Accessibility, Javascript, Flash, force. You must either be
black or white... 100% or nothing.

Totally unrealistic fantasy world.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

 

[Whitecrest]

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

You just proved my point

 

[David Dorward]

You just proved my point

Your logic just gets worse and worse.

 

[Bob]

Your logic just gets worse and worse.

I think he had it right both times.

Back to the thread though (sorry for the distraction). All the OP
wants to do is have automated login. So, you set it up with an
auto submit JS and it works for the large majority of users. You
put a button out there and for anyone that it doesn't work for they
can click "submit". All done, nice and neat. Still a bad idea though.
Also, won't make the purists happy, because he used JS on a web page.

 

[David Dorward]

I think he had it right both times.

Really?

I hold position A.
He claims I hold position B (which is like A, but taken to silly extremes)
I point out that just because B is bad doesn't mean that A is too.
And something this "proves" that I hold position B? (Which I don't).

Back to the thread though (sorry for the distraction). All the OP
wants to do is have automated login.

For which I cannot see any reason whatsoever to involve a form in the first
place.

So, you set it up with an
auto submit JS and it works for the large majority of users.

How? Where does the data come from to populate the form in the first place?
And why does that data need to be sent to the user if JavaScript is going
to be used to (try to) send it back to the server without modification?

Also, won't make the purists happy, because he used JS on a web page.

And this goes back to my strawman complaint. Few people using this newsgroup
think that using JavaScript is a bad idea period. (Although plenty of
people think that using it in certain ways isn't smart).

 

[Whitecrest]

Your logic just gets worse and worse.

A few of you, believe that anything that you do not agree with is wrong.
There is no room on the Internet except for code that you think is
right. No room for anyone to do anything else. Black or white, it is
all or nothing. PERIOD. If someone disagrees, you (the group, no you
specifically) flood the poster with canned links (much like the silly
straw man argument link, or the infamous why frames are evil, insert
your favorite link here) It is like you guys save them in a signature
or something.

Like this forcing issue, it has to be 100% or nothing. Well you know in
the real world that is bullshit. So, can I force someone to do
something? I sure can with an 85% chance of success. I will take those
odds.

Sorry, I consider being able to force 85% of the visitors a success.
You just disagree. Time to move on, neither of us has changed the
others mind in 2 years. And I seriously doubt I have changed yours now.

But if I have opened the eyes of just one HTML coder, it was all worth
it.....

 

[Mark Parnell]

87.93% of statistics are made up on the spt.

Statistics don't prove anything. 92.43% of people know that.

 

[David Dorward]

If someone disagrees, you (the group, no you
specifically) flood the poster with canned links (much like the silly
straw man argument link, or the infamous why frames are evil, insert
your favorite link here)

We have links to answers to frequently asked questions, becuase it would get
tedious to put the complete answer in by hand every time. That is the point
of FAQs.

People who pay attention to them usually come out with something better then
what they had then they went in. Those who don't are typically those who
can't be bothered to learn.

Like this forcing issue, it has to be 100% or nothing. Well you know in
the real world that is bullshit. So, can I force someone to do
something? I sure can with an 85% chance of success. I will take those
odds.

If you try to do something, and the user can choose if they want to do it or
not, then it isn't forcing.

 

[Whitecrest]

If you try to do something, and the user can choose if they want to do it or
not, then it isn't forcing.

Well, I look at it differently. If I can FORCE on 85% of the browsers
out there, then I consider it a success. You disagree. No biggy.

 

[Bob]

For which I cannot see any reason whatsoever to involve a form in the first
place.

Here's his question: "So how can I submit a form withOUT having the
user hit a button or do anything?"

He already involved a form. How he wants to get it to the user,
how he intends to populate it with data for submission, etc is
not an issue here. He asked how to submit a form without user
action. We can design for lots of hypotheticals.

How? Where does the data come from to populate the form in the first place?
And why does that data need to be sent to the user if JavaScript is going
to be used to (try to) send it back to the server without modification?

See above. Not my issue. The poster may need to consider those issues
once he gets the submit running. In programming, the solution to one
issue often reveals the next (or unanticipated) hurdle.

And this goes back to my strawman complaint. Few people using this newsgroup
think that using JavaScript is a bad idea period. (Although plenty of
people think that using it in certain ways isn't smart).

I might disagree. Some in this group appear to believe that using JS
is the devil's work. That's fine. But, the poster didn't ask for a
long dissertation on JS use. He asked if what he wanted to do can be
done. At this point, he knows that it will work for most, but not all,
users. You might note that while defending JS as a possible solution,
I also suggested it was a bad idea in this situation.

 

[Bob]

People who pay attention to them usually come out with something better then
what they had then they went in. Those who don't are typically those who
can't be bothered to learn.

Some are learned, they just don't agree on the use of the knowledge.

If you try to do something, and the user can choose if they want to do it or
not, then it isn't forcing.

In the strictest sense, no. I think the poster has been told that.
However, he's also learned that he can get it to work a significant
portion of the time. All he has to do is include a backup feature
for when it fails. If he requires a 100% solution, then there's no
solution for him.

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

Well, I look at it differently. If I can FORCE on 85% of the browsers
out there, then I consider it a success. You disagree. No biggy.

By definition, you're not forcing anything if it can be turned off. Even
if everyone in the world had JS turned on, you still wouldn't be forcing
anyone.

 

[William Tasso]

... to believe that using JS is the devil's work.

nah - relying on client side script is futile - therefore "forcing" won't
happen.

 

[Whitecrest]

By definition, you're not forcing anything if it can be turned off. Even
if everyone in the world had JS turned on, you still wouldn't be forcing
anyone.

Yes, according to Websters you are right. But, we both know that is not
what we were talking about. The question, how can I "force" (read that
as doing something with out an action from a user) a user to submit
something (now he gets specific here) "without pressing a button"

The correct answer is that in about 85% of the visitors, you can
"force" (specifically submit a form without them pressing a button)
using Javascript.

The correct answer is NOT that you can not do it. Because you can, in
an overwhelming majority of the visitors.

 

[Whitecrest]

nah - relying on client side script is futile - therefore "forcing" won't
happen.

In 15% or fewer of the cases you mean. In 85% it will happen.

 

[JustAnotherGuy]

Whitecrest wrote:

<snip>

Ok, guys, change the issue from FORCING submit to URGING submit, or
HINTING submit.

Resolved, isn't it? Now take a beer or whatever, sit back and relaxx...

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

Ok, guys, change the issue from FORCING submit to URGING submit, or
HINTING submit.

The OP didn't.