How can I stop XP 'Large Fonts' affecting web page?

[Chris Tomlinson]

Hi all,

Hope someone is able to help. I notice when I design a basic HTML page, it
is affected if a WinXP user has Large Fonts set in their Control Panel.
However some pages, e.g. www.bbc.co.uk/news are unaffected by this I think.
They are definitely not affected by changing the font size within the
browser.

Because I want to add tables, which will word-wrap incorrectly if the font
size is changed, how can I disable allowing the browser to do this?

Basically I want the font size to stay how I designed it. If they need it
bigger, they can use the zoom option in more recent browsers.

Thanks in advance for any helpful constructive replies

 

[Janwillem Borleffs]

Thanks in advance for any helpful constructive replies

My 'constructive reply' consists of nothing else than encouraging you to
leave the ability to increase the font size alone and try to improve the
table layout for variable font sizes. This way, people with poor eye-sight
may also use your site...


JW

 

[Rik]

My 'constructive reply' consists of nothing else than encouraging you
to leave the ability to increase the font size alone and try to
improve the table layout for variable font sizes. This way, people
with poor eye-sight may also use your site...

That's exactly right. There is a reason why people choose a large font-size.
Just use em instead of px in CSS if you're afraid it will compromise your
lay-out.

Grtz,

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Hope someone is able to help. I notice when I design a basic HTML
page, it is affected if a WinXP

...or any other version of any graphical OS..

user has Large Fonts set in their Control Panel. However some pages,
e.g. www.bbc.co.uk/news are unaffected by this I think. They are
definitely not affected by changing the font size within the browser.

When I increase the size in my browser, that bbc page conforms. You must
be using Internet Explorer, which will not resize fonts set in pixels or
points. Try it in, oh, say, Firefox, and press Control-Plus a couple of
times, or with Opera and pick 120% from the little sizer doodad.

Because I want to add tables, which will word-wrap incorrectly if the
font size is changed, how can I disable allowing the browser to do
this?

What will your visually impaired visitors do? And, unless the visitor is
using IE, they all can easily override your fixed font size. (So can IE,
but it is not apparently easy, therefore the masses don't know how.)

Basically I want the font size to stay how I designed it. If they
need it bigger, they can use the zoom option in more recent browsers.

Web pages used on the World Wide Web should be designed for the
visitors, not the author.

Thanks in advance for any helpful constructive replies

Set your body { font-size: 100%; } and use slightly larger for headings,
and slightly smaller for legalese. Then everyone should be able to read
it. Oh, and don't use Verdana like the bbc does.

 

[Chris Tomlinson]

In alt.html, Chris Tomlinson wrote:

Hi, thanks for the feedback.

What will your visually impaired visitors do? And, unless the visitor is
using IE, they all can easily override your fixed font size. (So can IE,
but it is not apparently easy, therefore the masses don't know how.)

I have thought about accessibility, and as I said, most new browsers use a
'zoom' feature which will allow them to read everything. The difference is
it also zooms the tables, so the formatting doesn't go wrong. However if
they just adjust the text size, then the text becomes too big for the table.

How is it supposed to be possible to use a table like that at
www.superhighstreet.com and yet have it viewable in different font sizes? I
can't see this is doable. :-S

Web pages used on the World Wide Web should be designed for the
visitors, not the author.

If you can help show me how to do it, I am happy to take that on-board.

Set your body { font-size: 100%; } and use slightly larger for headings,
and slightly smaller for legalese. Then everyone should be able to read
it. Oh, and don't use Verdana like the bbc does.

Thanks, but what do you meant "Set your body { font-size: 100%; }"? Surely
this will still mean text becomes too big for tables if they increase their
font size?

And what's the problem with Verdana? Best to validate a "don't do this"
comment with a reason, then people can understand why not to.

Thanks for your guidance.

Chris

 

[Chris Tomlinson]

My 'constructive reply' consists of nothing else than encouraging you to
leave the ability to increase the font size alone and try to improve the
table layout for variable font sizes. This way, people with poor eye-sight
may also use your site...

Thanks JW. In case you miss my other post, I have thought about
accessibility, and as I said, most new browsers use a
'zoom' feature which will allow them to read everything. The difference is
it also zooms the tables, so the formatting doesn't go wrong. However if
they just adjust the text size, then the text becomes too big for the table.

How is it supposed to be possible to use a table like that at
www.superhighstreet.com and yet have it viewable in different font sizes? I
can't see this is doable. :-S

 

[Chris Tomlinson]

That's exactly right. There is a reason why people choose a large
font-size.
Just use em instead of px in CSS if you're afraid it will compromise your
lay-out.

Cheers Rik, can you elaborate as I'm new to this. How do I 'use em in CSS'?
In layman's terms, what should I swap with what? E.g. at the moment I have
something like <font size="2">

 

[Ian Collins]

Cheers Rik, can you elaborate as I'm new to this. How do I 'use em in CSS'?
In layman's terms, what should I swap with what? E.g. at the moment I have
something like <font size="2">

If you are using CSS, you can use "2px" or "2em", where px = pixels and
em = the value font-size for the element.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Hi, thanks for the feedback.

Forgot to ask: what do you want to use these tables for? True tabular
data?

I have thought about accessibility, and as I said, most new browsers
use a 'zoom' feature which will allow them to read everything. The
difference is it also zooms the tables, so the formatting doesn't go
wrong. However if they just adjust the text size, then the text
becomes too big for the table.

Of the major browsers, the only one I know of with a 'zoom' feature is
Opera. The Firefox/Mozilla family uses Control-Plus to increase text
only.

How is it supposed to be possible to use a table like that at
www.superhighstreet.com and yet have it viewable in different font
sizes? I can't see this is doable. :-S

Oh, I see. You want to use tables for layout. Sorry, can't help you with
that. I've moved into the 21st century. <g>

The superhighstreet site is using ancient <font> elements, which I have
not used since .. probably 1998?

If you can help show me how to do it, I am happy to take that on-board.

Thanks, but what do you meant "Set your body { font-size: 100%; }"?

That would be the CSS to assign the main font to your visitors' default
size. Or ... are you not aware of what CSS is?

Rik suggested using 'em' for sizing; I would recommend percentages,
though, due to a bug in some versions of IE where a resize from say,
smaller to medium, with *double* the display size. Use em for widths of
columns and boxes, though; that's ok.

Surely this will still mean text becomes too big for tables if they
increase their font size?

As long as you don't assign fixed pixel sizes to the tables, they will
expand with the larger fonts.

http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

And what's the problem with Verdana? Best to validate a "don't do this"
comment with a reason, then people can understand why not to.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html

These points are all discussed here very frequently. Almost daily, it
seems. ;-)

Have a look at this one site of mine. The only tables you will find are
for, as expected, tabular data. The listings of motorcycles, the store
hours... and it pretty much doesn't care how wide your browser window
is, either.

http://countryrode.com/

 

[Neredbojias]

Thanks JW. In case you miss my other post, I have thought about
accessibility, and as I said, most new browsers use a
'zoom' feature which will allow them to read everything. The
difference is it also zooms the tables, so the formatting doesn't go
wrong. However if they just adjust the text size, then the text
becomes too big for the table.

How is it supposed to be possible to use a table like that at
www.superhighstreet.com and yet have it viewable in different font
sizes? I can't see this is doable. :-S

superhighstreet doesn't "zoom the tables"; they are fixed width and the
text flows, filling space vertically with size. Although the markup is
quite archaic, the site works fairly well for a dinosaur. (Opera may
"zoom-and-relign" the basic graphic buffer, but that isn't mainstream
browser behaviour. While a nice feature, it should be coupled with
straight font-resizing also.)

Incidentally, in something like <font size="4">text</font>, the font-size
_is_ relative, just like em units. But that type of markup was deprecated
years ago.

 

[Toby Inkster]

Of the major browsers, the only one I know of with a 'zoom' feature is
Opera. The Firefox/Mozilla family uses Control-Plus to increase text
only.

The IE 7 beta does, and I think it's safe to assume that IE 7 final will
too, but I don't think it's wise to rely on visitors having that browser
installed -- after all, it's currently only available for WinXPsp2 (i.e.
not Win98, WinME, Win2K or the more modern Windows 2003).

 

[Randy Webb]

Toby Inkster said the following on 5/28/2006 5:32 AM:

The IE 7 beta does, and I think it's safe to assume that IE 7 final will
too, but I don't think it's wise to rely on visitors having that browser
installed -- after all, it's currently only available for WinXPsp2 (i.e.
not Win98, WinME, Win2K or the more modern Windows 2003).

Who still supports outdated antiquated software other than IE6?

 

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

How is it supposed to be possible to use a table like that at
www.superhighstreet.com and yet have it viewable in different font sizes? I
can't see this is doable. :-S

Looking at that page, I don't see anything that should be a table.
They do have a lot of *lists* though.

The rounded boxes scale badly because the images define the width.
You can do that with CSS and a lot of nested divs, also so that it
scales:
<URL:http://www.sovavsiti.cz/css/corners.html>

The two-column design in the lower box is a classic CSS "problem".
Just google for "CSS" and "columns" and you'll find lots and lots.

/L

 

[Alan J. Flavell]

Who still supports outdated antiquated software other than IE6?

Many older browser/versions are still quite capable of browsing the
content of decently-made web pages, even if they don't produce the
cosmetic results which modern browsers could achieve. Better to
"support" proper web design techniques, than to "support" specific
browser brands and versions.[1]

But what on Earth do you think that question has got to do with the
topic of this thread - the appropriate choice of text size units for
web pages?

[1] See e.g http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/essence.html

 

[Chris Tomlinson]

Oh, I see. You want to use tables for layout. Sorry, can't help you with
that. I've moved into the 21st century. <g>

The superhighstreet site is using ancient <font> elements, which I have
not used since .. probably 1998?
<font face="Verdana" size="2" color="#FFFFFF">

Thanks all of you for your advice so far. It is true, I am new to web
design and building Superhighstreet has been a learning experience, however
I have mainly used FrontPage 2003 which by default has inserted that usage
of fonts.

I am keen to make my browser more compatible, however I still think it is
too much to redo those tables with corner shadow images - there still seems
to be debate as to whether nested divs are a better option. So many sites
use what I am using, so for now if that's good enough for them it's good
enough for me.

But I do agree that users without IE7 or Opera should be able to enlarge the
text if they don't have a page zoom option.

So, next question: Is there an easy way to convert my page to use CSS? I
have to say I don't know much about CSS as yet, but are there by any chance
any 'converter' pieces of software or web pages? Doubt it but worth asking

 

[Chris Tomlinson]

Incidentally, in something like <font size="4">text</font>, the font-size
_is_ relative, just like em units. But that type of markup was deprecated
years ago.

Thanks for the feedback. I feel if it's good enough for the BBC to fix
their font size, it may be good enough for me. Do you have any simple line
I can add to the HTML to emulate the fact that theirs doesn't change size
(at least in IE6/7)?

 

[Randy Webb]

Alan J. Flavell said the following on 5/28/2006 6:48 AM:

Many older browser/versions are still quite capable of browsing the
content of decently-made web pages, even if they don't produce the
cosmetic results which modern browsers could achieve.

Plain text has that effect...

Let me ask you this though, do you still support Netscape 4? And if so -
why. If not, why not?

Technology evolves and those who choose to stay in the dark ages deserve
to stay in the dark.

Better to "support" proper web design techniques, than to "support"
specific browser brands and versions.[1]

True. And if even half, no make that a quarter, of the current "web
developers" understood that, this conversation would never have been
started to begin with.

But what on Earth do you think that question has got to do with the
topic of this thread - the appropriate choice of text size units for
web pages?

The same thing that topic has to do with Javascript and
comp.lang.javascript where I am reading it from.

 

[David Dorward]

Let me ask you this though, do you still support Netscape 4?

For a definition of "support" that comes to "entirely accessible, even if it
doesn't look all that pretty".

And if so - why.

Why not? It doesn't take any extra effort on my part.

Technology evolves and those who choose to stay in the dark ages deserve
to stay in the dark.

What about those who have no choice?

 

[David Dorward]

Thanks for the feedback. I feel if it's good enough for the BBC to fix
their font size

I've just skimmed the style sheets of the BBC homepage, font-size appears to
be defined in ems throughout.

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

- -
I have mainly used FrontPage 2003 which by default has
inserted that usage of fonts.

No, it hasn't. You have used FrontPage's font-oriented formatting instead of
the menus and buttons that operate on more logical constructs.

Contrary to widespread belief, it is possible to create well-designed,
structurally sound pages using FrontPage. It isn't even difficult. Most
people who use FrontPage don't use such options, but that's a different
issue.

If you use font formatting commands, FrontPage converts them to
font-oriented markup. It needs to, more or less.

FrontPage even has tools for constructing a style sheet via menus. However,
it might be easier to type in CSS code by hand.

But I do agree that users without IE7 or Opera should be able to
enlarge the text if they don't have a page zoom option.

Page zooming and font resizability are _not_ two alternative ways to achieve
the same thing. They are two different features, and the existence of one of
them is no excuse for making your best to prevent the other from working.

So, next question: Is there an easy way to convert my page to use
CSS?

No. You should probably redesign it from scratch, if you have now used
FrontPage's presentational features.

Follow-ups trimmed. This thread has nothing to do with JavaScript-