how can I test for backspace if( (c = getchar()) == '\b' )

M

Mark McIntyre

:What do you think you will accomplish, besides irritating the majority
:eek:f participant?

I don't know anything about your background, but in my background,
technical newsgroup participants pride themselves on providing
postings which are as correct and complete as is reasonably feasible.

Yes.
If someone were to quote the C standard incorrectly, would you not
correct them, even if it isn't what they wanted to hear? You put
truth above convenience or above the possibility that you
might "irritatei" them, do you not?

Yes
Just so, if someone misspeaks about the purpose of the newsgroup,
then is it out of place to speak the truth that few people seem to
want to hear?

Yes.

However your fundamental mistake is to think you're right about the topic
of this group. The topic is the C LANGUAGE.
:Your opinion is at odds with the consensus of the
:groups, we won't be changing.
You know, there's already been an RFD and CFV on the topic,

I just love it when someone talks authoratively about acronyms. Hint: it
doesn;t make you any more authorative.
and
the result was that comp.lang.c.moderated was created with a charter
that left comp.lang.c as the appropriate newsgroup for OS-specific
issues not covered by the clc FAQ. The result was announced
March 7, 1995.

What clcm's charter says is quite irrelevant to clc. I'm surprised you
don't see that.
:You've been informed,

I have been "informed" by people who obviously didn't know what
they were talking about.

ROFL. You mean the regulars here? Get real.
The newsgroup has *not* "always" been
only about "conforming" C.

True. But it *has* been about that since very early on indeed. And it
remains about that today. Your maundering won't change it.
When someone posts an answer to a question and that answer fits within
the environment stated by the question-poser, the "We're doing the best
we can" camp says "Hey, it's great that someone with the knowledge and
experience was able to help that person out.";

This sort of specious argument has been done to death, and directly
contradicts your own point about correctness and truth. How does anyone
*know* the answer is correct - this is a C group, not a windows or unix
group.
the "We don't want your
kind around here!" camp makes themselves visible by then replyng to
that servicable answer with a "That's not part of Standard C and so is
inappropriate in this newsgroup!".

Idiot.
 
W

Walter Roberson

|You proceed from fact to falsehood, by way of accidental ignorance. The
|very first post, the one establishing net.lang.c, defined the topic. We're
|still sticking to it.

No you aren't. The net.lang.c intial message clearly indicates
that matters such as compiler availability and bugs are appropriate
topics; within the last week I have seen claims that those are
OS-specific and so outside the purpose of comp.lang.c .

net.lang.c was for discussions about C, not for discussions about
-standard- C.

If the net.lang.c charter transfered to comp.lang.c then in
the absence of an RFC and CFV otherwise, comp.lang.c is *still*
chartered to allow OS-specific topic, And if the charter didn't transfer,
then claims of what the charter "has always been" are incorrect.


:There has been no repurposing, and the lack of charter merely shows this
:group's antiquity. In fact should you want to start discussing nonstandard
:C here, *you* would have to raise the RFD.

Oh? And would i have to raise an RFD to pull out a question from
(say) December 1986 and post it here as-if fresh? There were 2 1/2 years of
postings in comp.lang.c proper before any "standard" C existed: are
you retroactively declaring that they were off-topic?


:>The third answer would be that I have been answering questions in
:>technical newsgroups and LISTSERVs and mailing lists and such since
:>before Usenet escaped from Universities, but I have never before
:>encountered a technical newsgroup that has been so narrow-minded
:>and hair-splitting about what the cliques deem discussible or
:>not.

:pardon me, but thats complete poppycock.

Ah? Which part of it do you deam "poppycock"? Do you assert that
I have have not in fact been around Usenet and other similar media that
long, or do you assert that I have in fact encountered technical newsgroups
which were -more- narrow-minded and hair-splitting about acceptable topics?
 
D

Default User

Walter said:
:What do you think you will accomplish, besides irritating the majority
:eek:f participant?

I don't know anything about your background,

Software R&D for the Boeing Company.
but in my background,
technical newsgroup participants pride themselves on providing
postings which are as correct and complete as is reasonably feasible.

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. This newsgroup has
topicality, we discourage off-topic posts whether they are asking or
answering questions.
If someone were to quote the C standard incorrectly, would you not
correct them, even if it isn't what they wanted to hear? You put
truth above convenience or above the possibility that you
might "irritatei" them, do you not?

What the hell are you talking about? That's a factual matter within the
scope of this newsgroup. You are attempting to change prevailing
sentiment on topicality. You will not succeed. Continuing to pursue is
petulant and disgraceful on your part. You should stop now and
apologize, as a professional should. I hold out little hope.



Brian
 
M

Mark McIntyre

|You proceed from fact to falsehood, by way of accidental ignorance. The
|very first post, the one establishing net.lang.c, defined the topic. We're
|still sticking to it.

No you aren't. The net.lang.c intial message clearly indicates
that matters such as compiler availability and bugs are appropriate

Newsflash: that was twenty years ago. And even so....
net.lang.c was for discussions about C, not for discussions about
-standard- C.

....the group is for Discussions about the C *language*. That was originally
defined by messrs Thompson and Ritchie, then by K&R, then by ISO.
If the net.lang.c charter

there was no charter.
transfered to comp.lang.c then in
the absence of an RFC and CFV otherwise, comp.lang.c is *still*
chartered to allow OS-specific topic,

There is no charter,
And if the charter didn't transfer,
then claims of what the charter "has always been" are incorrect.

There've never been claims of a charter, except by you. The topic of
charterless goups is defined by group consensus.
:There has been no repurposing, and the lack of charter merely shows this
:group's antiquity. In fact should you want to start discussing nonstandard
:C here, *you* would have to raise the RFD.

Oh? And would i have to raise an RFD to pull out a question from
(say) December 1986 and post it here as-if fresh?

No, but you'd get redirected and told you were offtopic.
There were 2 1/2 years of
postings in comp.lang.c proper before any "standard" C existed: are
you retroactively declaring that they were off-topic?

Are you clinically thick? The C language was defined prior to being
internationally agreed by ISO.
:>The third answer would be that I have been answering questions in
:>technical newsgroups and LISTSERVs and mailing lists and such since
:>before Usenet escaped from Universities, but I have never before
:>encountered a technical newsgroup that has been so narrow-minded
:>and hair-splitting about what the cliques deem discussible or
:>not.

:pardon me, but thats complete poppycock.

Ah? Which part of it do you deam "poppycock"?

Any part you choose.
 
W

Walter Roberson

:On 11 Feb 2005 22:47:52 GMT, in comp.lang.c , (e-mail address removed)-cnrc.gc.ca
:(Walter Roberson) wrote:

:>The newsgroup has *not* "always" been
:>only about "conforming" C.

:True. But it *has* been about that since very early on indeed.

Well, that's progress, that you admit now that there were topics
that were deemed suitable at one time, but which a number of people
appear to deem inappropriate now.

Now, did the actual newsgroup purpose change, or was it only the
consensual -interpretation- of the purpose? My contention is that it is
the -interpretation- of the purpose which has changed, and that
the old purpose is still there, if unused.

I can imagine that there may have been good practical reasons for
refining the focus. By no means do I imply that a newsgroup that
restricts itself to ISO Conforming C is not a good thing; I question
not the result but the process.
 
M

Mark McIntyre

On 11 Feb 2005 23:13:08 GMT, in comp.lang.c , (e-mail address removed)-cnrc.gc.ca
(Walter Roberson) wrote:

(stuff)

Oh ,and by the way, if you keep this up much longer, all the regulars will
plonk you. The lack of other reply than mine and a couple of others tells
me thats already largely happened. Remember, being plonked is *your* loss,
not ours.
 
M

Mark McIntyre

Well, that's progress, that you admit now that there were topics
that were deemed suitable at one time, but which a number of people
appear to deem inappropriate now.

Nobody ever denied this. We're discussing the topic *now*.
Now, did the actual newsgroup purpose change, or was it only the
consensual -interpretation- of the purpose?

Irrelevant. Identical question: are societal morals absolute or relative?
My contention is that it is
the -interpretation- of the purpose which has changed, and that
the old purpose is still there, if unused.

Nobody gives a shit what your contention is, this isn't a debating school.
If you dont like the topic here, go away

*plonk*
 
M

Michael Mair

Walter said:
|You proceed from fact to falsehood, by way of accidental ignorance. The
|very first post, the one establishing net.lang.c, defined the topic. We're
|still sticking to it.

No you aren't. The net.lang.c intial message clearly indicates
that matters such as compiler availability and bugs are appropriate
topics; within the last week I have seen claims that those are
OS-specific and so outside the purpose of comp.lang.c .

net.lang.c was for discussions about C, not for discussions about
-standard- C.

If the net.lang.c charter transfered to comp.lang.c then in
the absence of an RFC and CFV otherwise, comp.lang.c is *still*
chartered to allow OS-specific topic, And if the charter didn't transfer,
then claims of what the charter "has always been" are incorrect.

That is as may be; personally, I go by what the welcome message
(posted on a regular base by James Hu and available from
http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt ), the FAQ and the
regulars (as perceived by some lurking and actively participating
for nearly a year) say.
Even though that may not sit well with you, this is the pragmatic
thing to do. As you claim experience with technical newsgroups
and mailing lists, I guess you know about pragmatism. I am not
happy about the way some requests are treated, even by me. This
is more a matter of the way the answers are written than of their
saying "this is considered off-topic around here".
If you want to give an OT answer, then just crosspost and set
according follow-ups or mark the subject OT.


Cheers
Michael

[some pointless discussion snipped]
 
B

Ben Pfaff

Mark McIntyre said:
Oh ,and by the way, if you keep this up much longer, all the regulars will
plonk you. The lack of other reply than mine and a couple of others tells
me thats already largely happened.

For my part, I just see this as a wholly uninteresting discussion.
 
W

Walter Roberson

:You are attempting to change prevailing
:sentiment on topicality.

Thinking about what you wrote, I think you are correct. It isn't
the topicality itself that I would necessarily see changed, but rather,
just as you say, the -sentiment- about the topicality. As in
how people feel -about- topicality, and thus the manner in which
they react when something is not within the scope of what can,
in a practical sense, be handled in the newsgroup.

I have no objection at all to a group saying "This particular subject
is our area of expertise, and considering the volumes of postings,
on the whole most people here do not have time to pay attention to
much that lays outside of that area."

What I have not liked, though, is some of the manners in which
other topics are dismissed, which at times becomes reminiscent of
a butler looking down his nose and sniffing at the presumption that
one of the "lower classes" would ask him for directions.


:You will not succeed.

The evidence is certainly suggesting that I am not succeeding ;-)


:Continuing to pursue is
:petulant and disgraceful on your part. You should stop now and
:apologize, as a professional should. I hold out little hope.

I make no apology for suggesting that people be treated with more
consideration.

I used to know a doctor, a surgeon specializing in a difficult kind of
operation and with a very good success record. People who had worked
with him told me that he had more than once taken a preliminary image,
looked at it the first time while the patient was present, and then had
turned to the patient and said approximately "Oh yeah, you've got a
tumour there. We can't operate on one like that. You'll probably die
from it in about 3 weeks. You can pay the receptionist on your way out."
Now, was that doctor, highly trained and technically very knowledgible,
a "professional" ?

I went to buy something a few months ago. I walked in and indicated
what I wanted. The clerk was a bit startled (I obviously wasn't
a member of the community the store specialized in), but within a
very short time was busy talking to me about the varieties available and
which one I would prefer, was pleased that I had researched the
field, and made sure that I would be happy with the particular one
I picked out. Was that sales-clerk, who had enough knowledge of the
product to be able to sell it but was not a specialist and not
posessing a particularily strong technical knowledge, a "non-professional" ?

There may be technical meanings to "professional", but I would suggest
that in the common parlance of the average person, that the doctor
would be judged by most to be quite non-professional in the way he treated
patients (as "interesting cases" rather than as feeling beings),
but that most people would understand and agree that the sales-clerk
acted "professionally" in treating me as human and ensuring my
satisfaction even though I did not fit into the regular clientele.

An expert can give a completely correct answer to a question and
yet be "non-professional" about it; I prefer to encourage the
variety of professionalism that looks beyond the immediate question
to the deeper situation and does it's best to help the client
get what the client needs, even if the answer arrived at is not the
best possible of answers.
 
W

Walter Roberson

:Even though that may not sit well with you, this is the pragmatic
:thing to do.

I know what you mean, Michael.

:As you claim experience with technical newsgroups
:and mailing lists, I guess you know about pragmatism.

Yeh. Somehow, I usually manage to hold on to my temper until
people start demanding answers as if it is their right. Or until
someone criticizes me for not having done something that I had
neither the time nor resources to have done. But it is certainly
true that one cannot be all things to all people, and setting
boundaries is sometimes necessary.


:I am not
:happy about the way some requests are treated, even by me. This
:is more a matter of the way the answers are written than of their
:saying "this is considered off-topic around here".

Exactly -- the *way* things are said can come to mean much more than
*what* is said.


Pragmatism... chosing one's fights... I will think more about that.
Thanks for the input.
 
W

Walter Roberson

:Oh ,and by the way, if you keep this up much longer, all the regulars will
:plonk you.

I imagine many of them have killed the thread by now.

:The lack of other reply than mine and a couple of others tells
:me thats already largely happened. Remember, being plonked is *your* loss,
:not ours.

Make sure you get the last name correct -- there's no "t" in it.
 
I

infobahn

Mark said:

From what I've read of Walter Roberson's articles, I don't see how
you arrive at the conclusion that he's an idiot. I don't agree with
all that he says, by any means, but I do see very clearly that he
is not stupid.
 
I

infobahn

Mark said:
there was no charter.
Dunno.


There is no charter,

True enough.
There've never been claims of a charter, except by you.

Not true. There is a rich and vibrant history of claims by various
"contributors" to this group that a comp.lang.c charter exists. A
quick Google search (using the old Google, not Gbrokgle) shows 1180
hits on "charter" in clc. I'm not going to plough through them all,
and of course many of them are merely innocent enquiries, but I'll
just pull one of them out to prove your statement false:

<[email protected]>

This one is interesting, because it contains a (false, of course!)
claim that a charter exists, to which a fully clued-up respondent
would have said "nonsense", but in fact we get this exchange:

Contributor A:
"Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but why, for f-words sake,
did you post this reply, presumably ignoring the fact that
there's a charter AND a faq for this NG???"

Contributor B:
"Have you read all the EULAs for all the software you've installed?
Are you a moderator for this newsgroup? Do you think every post in
comp.lang.c follows the charter? Do you think there is any value to
this charter? Do you think the many other posts which did nothing
more than rip into the OP for not following this newsgroups valueless
charter is useful?"

Both of these contributors not only claim, but in fact *assume*, that
a charter exists.
The topic of
charterless goups is defined by group consensus.

Wrong. The topic of charterless groups is defined by ME. Nobody else.
Just me. Anything I want to talk about is fine. Everybody else is
off-topic. I should have thought this was obvious, as it is a direct
consequence of the Theory of Everything Revolves Around Me.
 
I

infobahn

Mark said:
Irrelevant. Identical question: are societal morals absolute or relative?

Yes. Less irritatingly, they're absolute. And they've gone to hell
in a handbasket.
Nobody gives a shit what your contention is,

Ah, scatology - always a sign that you're losing the war.

this isn't a debating school.

It isn't? So why did it look like one when I peered through the shop
window? I want my money back!
 
I

infobahn

Walter said:
I have no objection at all to a group saying "This particular subject
is our area of expertise, and considering the volumes of postings,
on the whole most people here do not have time to pay attention to
much that lays outside of that area."

That's more or less what they /do/ say here. Except that they spell
it differently (and in much shorter words).
What I have not liked, though, is some of the manners in which
other topics are dismissed, which at times becomes reminiscent of
a butler looking down his nose and sniffing at the presumption that
one of the "lower classes" would ask him for directions.

<shrug> Some people enjoy being rude. Some of these people are
extraordinarily knowledgeable about C. Nobody is barred from posting
here. Put these three facts together, and you get the response you
mentioned; it's inevitable.
:You will not succeed.

The evidence is certainly suggesting that I am not succeeding ;-)

What the heck, as long as you enjoy thinking and typing?
:Continuing to pursue is
:petulant and disgraceful on your part. You should stop now and
:apologize, as a professional should. I hold out little hope.

I make no apology for suggesting that people be treated with more
consideration.

YOU CAD!
I used to know a doctor [with the bedside manner of a Vogon]

I went to buy something a few months ago [and succeeded]

There may be technical meanings to "professional", but I would suggest
that in the common parlance of the average person, that the doctor
would be judged by most to be quite non-professional in the way he treated
patients (as "interesting cases" rather than as feeling beings),
but that most people would understand and agree that the sales-clerk
acted "professionally" in treating me as human and ensuring my
satisfaction even though I did not fit into the regular clientele.

The analogy falls completely apart because both the doctor and the
sales clerk got PAID for the assistance they rendered. Here in
comp.lang.c, only the cabal members get paid, remember?

Now, if you start sending me a pay-cheque every month for supplying
newbies with answers to questions they can find in their C book if
only they could be bothered to look, I'll cut down on the offensive
language and hostile glares I give Unix people and Windows people
when they dare to come into the shop. Until then, I fully intend to
be exactly as rude and arrogant in the future as I have been in the
past, and who are /you/ to stop me?
 
I

infobahn

Walter said:
:Oh ,and by the way, if you keep this up much longer, all the regulars will
:plonk you.

I imagine many of them have killed the thread by now.

Nah. This is the best bit. Beats TV any day.

:The lack of other reply than mine and a couple of others tells
:me thats already largely happened. Remember, being plonked is *your* loss,
:not ours.

Make sure you get the last name correct -- there's no "t" in it.

I have some to spare, if you're interested.

I was about to complain that that's obviously n... and then I...
and eventually I realised that it *is* funny after all.
 
J

Jonathan Burd

The debate on what should/shouldn't be topical on comp.lang.c has been
argued thousands of times and the general consensus of this group has
*never* changed. Why must people continue to throw out the debate as if
it were some ingenious idea that's never before been discussed?

If you look up the word "pedantic" in a dictionary, you'll find this:
ref. comp.lang.c. Indeed, if pedantic is what one must be, then you
should also note that the standard clearly distinguishes between the
terms "language" and "library." If this NG is strictly about the
*language only*, the library wouldn't matter anyway. That would
render any discussions about the library functions as off-topic and
you could go a step further and redirect that topic to, say,
comp.library.c since we're being pedantic. ;)

[follow ups > /dev/null]

Regards,
Jonathan.
 
C

CBFalconer

infobahn said:
.... snip ...

<shrug> Some people enjoy being rude. Some of these people are
extraordinarily knowledgeable about C. Nobody is barred from
posting here. Put these three facts together, and you get the
response you mentioned; it's inevitable.

Where is Dan Pop when we need him :)
 

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