How does Microsoft expect developers/designers to make stuff work for everyone?

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by Nathan Sokalski, Jan 17, 2007.

  1. Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a web
    developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to test
    for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to multiple
    computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would enjoy moving
    between them every time they need to test a change in their code. Because my
    boss is not currently requiring me to make the site function in all
    browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I don't think people
    will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to switch at this point. I
    feel this way because:

    1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
    new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
    businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
    change their code to make it work in IE7

    2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their home
    computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view more
    sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as Windows 98
    (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their OS) are
    capable of using

    I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes with
    Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at the same
    time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
    operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a page
    shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like that for
    use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks everyone
    is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong. Many
    universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people in the
    residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other people do
    it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist, you're
    waiting your turn with me!
    --
    Nathan Sokalski

    http://www.nathansokalski.com/
     
    Nathan Sokalski, Jan 17, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Nathan Sokalski

    Patrice Guest

    Once your OS runs in Virtual PC, you can of course do whatever you do with
    an OS such as installing IE7 or any other application you want. Try a
    Virtual PC group if you had some kind of problem...

    --
    Patrice

    "Nathan Sokalski" <> a écrit dans le message de news:
    O4$...
    > Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    > and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    > Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    > loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
    > web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
    > to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
    > multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
    > enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
    > code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
    > function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
    > don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
    > switch at this point. I feel this way because:
    >
    > 1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
    > new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
    > businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
    > change their code to make it work in IE7
    >
    > 2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their
    > home computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view
    > more sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as
    > Windows 98 (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their
    > OS) are capable of using
    >
    > I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes
    > with Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at
    > the same time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is
    > for operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a
    > page shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like
    > that for use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks
    > everyone is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong.
    > Many universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people
    > in the residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other
    > people do it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist,
    > you're waiting your turn with me!
    > --
    > Nathan Sokalski
    >
    > http://www.nathansokalski.com/
    >
     
    Patrice, Jan 17, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Nathan Sokalski

    Mark Rae Guest

    "Nathan Sokalski" <> wrote in message
    news:O4$...

    > I am a web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it
    > hard to test for both IE6 and IE7.


    That's what VirtualPC is for... :)
     
    Mark Rae, Jan 17, 2007
    #3
  4. Nathan Sokalski

    Aidy Guest

    > Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    > and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    > Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    > loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
    > web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
    > to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
    > multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
    > enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
    > code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
    > function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
    > don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
    > switch at this point. I feel this way because:


    <snip>

    I know what you mean. We need to test IE6/IE7/Firefox 1/ Firefox 2/Mac.
    You might want to try this;

    http://tredosoft.com/IE7_standalone



    I haven't tried it myself so not sure how well it works.
     
    Aidy, Jan 17, 2007
    #4
  5. Nathan Sokalski

    AJR Guest

    Not a developer so do not know if your statements are valid, However quote:
    "...Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
    operating systems,..." .
    You can have whatever browser your heart desires installed on the Virtual PC
    one of the main purpose of the virtual PC is to evaluate OSs and
    applications.


    "Nathan Sokalski" <> wrote in message
    news:O4$...
    > Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    > and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    > Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    > loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
    > web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
    > to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
    > multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
    > enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
    > code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
    > function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
    > don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
    > switch at this point. I feel this way because:
    >
    > 1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
    > new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
    > businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
    > change their code to make it work in IE7
    >
    > 2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their
    > home computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view
    > more sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as
    > Windows 98 (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their
    > OS) are capable of using
    >
    > I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes
    > with Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at
    > the same time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is
    > for operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a
    > page shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like
    > that for use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks
    > everyone is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong.
    > Many universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people
    > in the residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other
    > people do it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist,
    > you're waiting your turn with me!
    > --
    > Nathan Sokalski
    >
    > http://www.nathansokalski.com/
    >
     
    AJR, Jan 17, 2007
    #5
  6. Nathan Sokalski

    Corey B Guest

    I understand why people are suggesting VirtualPC, but I have to whole
    heartedly agree with the original poster. Come on Microsoft! This is
    2007. It is absolutely ridiculous to not have a (simple) way to run
    the two browsers side by side. Netscape Navigator had that ability
    from day one!

    I think that this is an example of what happens when one company has
    complete market dominance. They don't care as much. In the
    development cycle for IE7 supporting side by side installation was
    probably very, very low on their priority list. When it came time to
    cut features that would be one of the first to go.

    They will have to see their browser market share really, really slip
    before they will start scratching their heads and wondering why
    developers are building sites for FireFox instead of IE.

    As much as I like MS, this seems to be an example of what happens when
    you are able to bundle your browser with the OS. Since the vast, vast
    majority of people have Windows, they just end up using IE. And since
    MS recommends automatic updating, then the vast, vast majority of
    people just start using IE7 when it comes out. And since this
    particular problem only impacts a relatively small number of people
    they probably decided it wasn't worth the effort.

    My two cents.
    Corey

    AJR wrote:
    > Not a developer so do not know if your statements are valid, However quote:
    > "...Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
    > operating systems,..." .
    > You can have whatever browser your heart desires installed on the Virtual PC
    > one of the main purpose of the virtual PC is to evaluate OSs and
    > applications.
    >
    >
    > "Nathan Sokalski" <> wrote in message
    > news:O4$...
    > > Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    > > and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    > > Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    > > loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
    > > web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
    > > to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
    > > multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
    > > enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
    > > code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
    > > function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
    > > don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
    > > switch at this point. I feel this way because:
    > >
    > > 1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
    > > new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
    > > businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
    > > change their code to make it work in IE7
    > >
    > > 2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their
    > > home computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view
    > > more sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as
    > > Windows 98 (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their
    > > OS) are capable of using
    > >
    > > I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes
    > > with Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at
    > > the same time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is
    > > for operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a
    > > page shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like
    > > that for use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks
    > > everyone is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong.
    > > Many universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people
    > > in the residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other
    > > people do it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist,
    > > you're waiting your turn with me!
    > > --
    > > Nathan Sokalski
    > >
    > > http://www.nathansokalski.com/
    > >
     
    Corey B, Jan 17, 2007
    #6
  7. Nathan Sokalski

    C A Upsdell Guest

    Re: How does Microsoft expect developers/designers to make stuffwork for everyone?

    Nathan Sokalski wrote:
    > Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    > and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    > Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    > loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a web
    > developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to test
    > for both IE6 and IE7 ...


    Others have told you to use Virtual PC. Normally you have to get a
    license for any O/S you install using Virtual PC, however, MS offers a
    free pre-licensed copy of XP SP2 with IE6 that you can install using
    Virtual PC, so you can upgrade to IE7, and install Virtual PC with this
    virtual copy of XP SP2 for testing with IE6. I have done this, and it
    works fine.

    See
    http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/11/30/ie6-and-ie7-running-on-a-single-machine.aspx
     
    C A Upsdell, Jan 17, 2007
    #7
  8. Nathan Sokalski

    norm Guest

    Re: How does Microsoft expect developers/designers to make stuffwork for everyone?

    Nathan Sokalski wrote:
    > Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    > and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    > Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    > loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a web
    > developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to test
    > for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to multiple
    > computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would enjoy moving
    > between them every time they need to test a change in their code. Because my
    > boss is not currently requiring me to make the site function in all
    > browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I don't think people
    > will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to switch at this point. I
    > feel this way because:
    >
    > 1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
    > new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
    > businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
    > change their code to make it work in IE7
    >
    > 2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their home
    > computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view more
    > sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as Windows 98
    > (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their OS) are
    > capable of using
    >
    > I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes with
    > Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at the same
    > time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
    > operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a page
    > shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like that for
    > use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks everyone
    > is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong. Many
    > universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people in the
    > residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other people do
    > it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist, you're
    > waiting your turn with me!


    If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
    difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
    http://validator.w3.org/
    --
    norm
     
    norm, Jan 17, 2007
    #8
  9. Nathan Sokalski

    Corey B Guest

    So it sounds like you are saying that if you code to the standards then
    there is no need to test in the different browsers? Is that realistic?
    I think we will always want to test in the different browsers. Even
    with standards we could have slight variations in how those standards
    are implemented - true?

    Corey

    norm wrote:

    > If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
    > difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
    > http://validator.w3.org/
    > --
    > norm
     
    Corey B, Jan 17, 2007
    #9
  10. Nathan Sokalski

    norm Guest

    Re: How does Microsoft expect developers/designers to make stuffwork for everyone?

    Corey B wrote:
    > So it sounds like you are saying that if you code to the standards then
    > there is no need to test in the different browsers? Is that realistic?
    > I think we will always want to test in the different browsers. Even
    > with standards we could have slight variations in how those standards
    > are implemented - true?
    >
    > Corey
    >
    > norm wrote:
    >
    >> If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
    >> difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
    >> http://validator.w3.org/
    >> --
    >> norm

    >

    If coding to standards, there probably should not be any "show stoppers"
    when viewed with standards compliant browsers. There could be variances,
    but nothing that should create an unpleasant viewing experience for the
    user. If you are concerned about viewing differences between ie6 and
    ie7, what about how things show up in mozilla, firefox, seamonkey,
    netscape, opera, konqueror, safari. Are you also testing each of these
    against your code? Recommendations and standards compliance offer the
    greatest amount of certainty that you are not inadvertently excluding
    someone from viewing your work in a satisfying manner.
    --
    norm
     
    norm, Jan 17, 2007
    #10
  11. Nathan Sokalski

    Mark Rae Guest

    "norm" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > If coding to standards, there probably should not be any "show stoppers"
    > when viewed with standards compliant browsers. There could be variances,
    > but nothing that should create an unpleasant viewing experience for the
    > user. If you are concerned about viewing differences between ie6 and ie7,
    > what about how things show up in mozilla, firefox, seamonkey, netscape,
    > opera, konqueror, safari. Are you also testing each of these against your
    > code? Recommendations and standards compliance offer the greatest amount
    > of certainty that you are not inadvertently excluding someone from viewing
    > your work in a satisfying manner.


    That's certainly true! E.g. Safari simply doesn't understand CSS of any type
    when applied to buttons... :)

    P.S. don't forget Camino...:)
     
    Mark Rae, Jan 17, 2007
    #11
  12. Nathan Sokalski

    C A Upsdell Guest

    Re: How does Microsoft expect developers/designers to make stuffwork for everyone?

    norm wrote:
    > Nathan Sokalski wrote:
    >
    > If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
    > difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
    > http://validator.w3.org/


    It should not make a difference, but it does. IE6 and IE7 both have
    bugs -- not always the same bugs -- and neither supports the standards
    100%. Some tricks to make IE6 behave properly are not needed for IE7,
    but can create problems in IE7. In addition there are some aspects of
    page rendering that are not detailed in the standards (e.g. the position
    of markers and sizes of LI indents), so that browsers are free to do
    things differently: and they do.

    I code to the standards, but I have sometimes had to resort to
    conditional comments to make the various version of IE to do things in
    an acceptable manner.
     
    C A Upsdell, Jan 17, 2007
    #12
  13. Nathan Sokalski

    Corey B Guest

    norm wrote:
    > If coding to standards, there probably should not be any "show stoppers"
    > when viewed with standards compliant browsers. There could be variances,
    > but nothing that should create an unpleasant viewing experience for the
    > user. If you are concerned about viewing differences between ie6 and
    > ie7, what about how things show up in mozilla, firefox, seamonkey,
    > netscape, opera, konqueror, safari. Are you also testing each of these
    > against your code? Recommendations and standards compliance offer the
    > greatest amount of certainty that you are not inadvertently excluding
    > someone from viewing your work in a satisfying manner.
    > --
    > norm


    Yes - you absolutely test using lots of different browsers. How many
    browsers depends on the requirements and the client. Most clients are
    happy if you can guarantee that the site will behave properly in about
    90% - 95% of the population. So you can not worry about some of the
    browsers with very, very small market share. Also, it depends on the
    intended audience. If you know that your audience will be very, very
    technical then there is a much greater chance that they will be using a
    more obscure browser. So for most situations you will need to test
    IE5, IE6, IE7, mozilla, firefox, safari, netscape and probably opera.
    It's very simple to test all of those except the multiple versions of
    IE. Then it becomes a royal pain in the butt. Either multiple
    computers or VirtualPC. Either one is way more effort than should be
    needed.

    Corey
     
    Corey B, Jan 18, 2007
    #13
  14. Nathan Sokalski

    ThunderMusic Guest

    Re: How does Microsoft expect developers/designers to make stuff work for everyone?

    hi,
    I must say I also code to the standards, however, I must do conditional
    blocks based on the browser type and version when doing many things in
    javascript because each browser implements javascript their own way. CSS has
    some differences and we must sometimes use "hacks" to get things straight on
    some browser, but it's not IMHO the major problem with "cross-browser"
    compatibility... Actually, for me javascript is a much bigger problem in
    that field.

    And it's absolutely sure I won't test on every browser available, but I do
    what I consider the "bare minimum" : IE6, IE7 (we have 2 computers to do
    so), Netscape, Firefox and Opera. And I find some major differences between
    just these 5 browsers, so I do even want to think about what I could find on
    the others...

    I also think it's a bad move from Microsoft, but since some IE components
    are part of the OS, it was very predictable that it would be that way...

    ThunderMusic

    "C A Upsdell" <""cupsdell\"@"> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > norm wrote:
    >> Nathan Sokalski wrote:
    >>
    >> If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
    >> difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
    >> http://validator.w3.org/

    >
    > It should not make a difference, but it does. IE6 and IE7 both have
    > bugs -- not always the same bugs -- and neither supports the standards
    > 100%. Some tricks to make IE6 behave properly are not needed for IE7, but
    > can create problems in IE7. In addition there are some aspects of page
    > rendering that are not detailed in the standards (e.g. the position of
    > markers and sizes of LI indents), so that browsers are free to do things
    > differently: and they do.
    >
    > I code to the standards, but I have sometimes had to resort to conditional
    > comments to make the various version of IE to do things in an acceptable
    > manner.
     
    ThunderMusic, Jan 18, 2007
    #14
  15. Nathan Sokalski

    clintonG Guest

    <snip />

    <snip />

    Architects and others in the construction industry know what this is like
    because Autodesk controls the entire U.S. construction industry. Autodesk
    sells crippleware CAD and its products are qualitatively trash yet they
    continue to control the entire industry after imposing a proprietary file
    format in the mid 1980s which has allowed the company to rape and pillage
    the U.S. construction industry one the construction industry participants
    became locked in.

    In fact, the National Institute of Science and Technology (NIST) states in
    recent studies that this type of crippleware is costing the U.S.
    construction industry over $15 billion annually. Yes, they said $15 BILLION
    ANNUALLY!!!

    It would be interesting to learn how many tens of billions Microsoft
    crippleware has cost America. All I know is $15 billion each and every year
    and growing larger and larger is a hell of a price to pay.

    Its also become a hell of a price to pay to Microsoft for "free" software
    like a browser that has been used in a manner to destroy the web so as to
    maintain artificial control of markets at the expense of the customer rather
    than any actual competitor.

    So the answer is really simple actually. Unlike architects and others who
    have decades of proprietary file assets which continues to prevent any
    reasonable choice in the matter of change Microsoft has only controlled the
    "perception" of those using IE and has no proprietary files that prevent
    anybody from choosing to use any other browser.

    Microsoft did control the proprietary use of ActiveX controls which
    dominated Intranets and enterprise development for some time but quite
    frankly, the use of ActiveX is dead and web development need not rely on any
    ActiveX controls for several years now.

    So the answer is actually really quite simple. Abusers continue to abuse
    until they are forced to stop abusing and the only power Microsoft has to
    abuse anybody is simply a misplace perception.

    All people need to do is use the power they really have to stop the abuser;
    the freedom of choice. The power to control your own mind and change your
    perception which leads to a change of behavior. It is your change of
    behavior Microsoft fears most. Microsoft actually fears its own customers
    more than they fear any competitor. I understand this phenomena and I hope I
    am helping others to do so.

    Choosing to put an 88x31 "button" image on a website stating the website
    only functions with browsers that support W3C Standards and disallowing the
    website to function for those using any version of IE is the way to free
    ourselves of this scourge on humanity once and for all. At this point in
    time it would be painless to do so as there are no more ActiveX controls and
    no proprietary file assets that can cost so much to change. All that needs
    to be changed in your mind!

    Its just like quitting smoking cigarettes. Very difficult to do initially
    but once you make up your mind and do it you look back and laugh at yourself
    at how ridiculously easy it actually was once you stopped deceiving yourself
    and realized the whole thing was in your mind which is the only means to
    control behavior. That's all Microsoft has. Deception and your false
    perceptions.

    I'm finally now using another browser and while I will continue to develop
    web applications using ASP.NET I will be practicing what I preach. The
    billions of dollars this abusive corporation has unjustly imposed upon the
    human race is simply too much to pay and I cannot in good concience continue
    to be a part of it.

    The joke they call IE7 proves to me Microsoft is not serious and remains
    nothing more than a company of lying manipulating pimps who intend to
    continue imposing great losses of time and money upon the human race while
    spending unknown number of millions of dollars pampering a false perception
    that they have changed. It is easy and correct to compare Microsoft to an
    alcoholic or a herion addict. Same behavior model. Lies. Lies. Lies
    Recidivism. Recidivism. Recidivism. Lies. Lies. Lies not different than the
    woman whose husband beats her because "he loves her" and unless she
    eventually finds the courage to change her mind she will die at his abusive
    hand.

    When people understand how insidious Microsoft's control of their minds has
    become they must also find freedom to choose differnetly or die. The choice
    is still ours to make and its our choice and our freedom to choose that is
    important because it is that freedom to choose and that alone that Microsoft
    has successfully controlled.

    Since Microsoft's Internet Explorer 4 this company's browsers have became
    analagous to the AIDs of the Internet and like a real dangerous and
    insidious virus, the virus known as Internet Explorer must be eradicated
    from the face of the earth or tens of millions of individuals and companies
    alike will continue to waste their hard earned wealth throwing their pearls
    after swine.

    Like abused women married to men who love them Microsoft will continue to
    come home and beat us all until we choose to leave once and for all or until
    we are beaten to death.

    <%= Clinton Gallagher
    NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
    URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
    MAP http://wikimapia.org/#y=43038073&x=-88043838&z=17&l=0&m=h
     
    clintonG, Jan 18, 2007
    #15
  16. Nathan Sokalski

    Mark Rae Guest

    "Corey B" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > So for most situations you will need to test IE5, IE6, IE7, mozilla,
    > firefox, safari, netscape and probably opera.


    IE5 is all but gone now...

    IE7, IE6, FireFox and Safari account for over 95% of worldwide usage.

    WinXP, 2000 & 98 account for 92% of worldwide usage - Mac 4%

    http://www.thecounter.com/stats/
     
    Mark Rae, Jan 18, 2007
    #16
  17. Nathan Sokalski

    PA Bear Guest

    Did you ever hear of partitions and installing more than one OS...?

    BTW there is a way to have IE6 and IE7 installed at the same time, but this
    is not supported.
    --
    ~PA Bear

    Nathan Sokalski wrote:
    > Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    > and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    > Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    > loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
    > web
    > developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to
    > test
    > for both IE6 and IE7...
     
    PA Bear, Jan 18, 2007
    #17
  18. Nathan Sokalski

    Corey B Guest

    PA Bear wrote:
    > Did you ever hear of partitions and installing more than one OS...?
    >
    > BTW there is a way to have IE6 and IE7 installed at the same time, but this
    > is not supported.
    > --
    > ~PA Bear
    >


    Yeah - I know that's a solution. But doesn't it seem absolutely
    ridiculous that you must partition your drive and install a completely
    separate *operating system* just to get a different version of a web
    browser? We should expect more from Microsoft instead of being happy
    to find a work around.

    Corey
     
    Corey B, Jan 18, 2007
    #18
  19. Yes, I have heard of all those things, but they do not allow you to have a
    window for each browser version open side by side. My basic complaint is
    that when testing, I don't want to be logging out and back in under a
    different login to test it in a different browser. Not only would this be
    very time consuming, but if I have to close my development software (in my
    case, Visual Studio .NET 2005) to test, I cannot use the undo feature of
    Visual Studio .NET 2005. Yes, I know how to install a second copy of Windows
    XP SP2 using Virtual PC, but if someone's going to have software like Visual
    Studio .NET open, do you really want to use up all the extra RAM required to
    run a second copy of the OS?
    --
    Nathan Sokalski

    http://www.nathansokalski.com/

    "PA Bear" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Did you ever hear of partitions and installing more than one OS...?
    >
    > BTW there is a way to have IE6 and IE7 installed at the same time, but
    > this is not supported.
    > --
    > ~PA Bear
    >
    > Nathan Sokalski wrote:
    >> Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
    >> and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
    >> Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
    >> loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
    >> web
    >> developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to
    >> test
    >> for both IE6 and IE7...

    >
     
    Nathan Sokalski, Jan 18, 2007
    #19
  20. Nathan Sokalski

    Mark Rae Guest

    "Nathan Sokalski" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > Yes, I know how to install a second copy of Windows XP SP2 using Virtual
    > PC,


    Good, because that's the solution here...

    > but if someone's going to have software like Visual Studio .NET open, do
    > you really want to use up all the extra RAM required to run a second copy
    > of the OS?


    So get some more RAM, then...!
     
    Mark Rae, Jan 18, 2007
    #20
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