Jargons of Info Tech industry

U

usenet

In comp.lang.perl.misc John Bokma said:
What is exactly crappy about those forums?
They are slow

They are inflexible

They are slow

They don't allow the user to choose how to view them, the interface is
imposed on the user.

They are slow

They don't have killfiles or scoring

They are slow
 
U

usenet

In comp.lang.perl.misc John Bokma said:
Example(s). And do users need those sophisticated things?
Kill files

Selecting posts and threads based on a scoring system

A huge variety of different newsreaders allowing different users to
access the news in they way they want.

I don't use all the possibilities (e.g. I don't use kill files) but I
do use a 'minority' text based newsreader because it is ideal for me.
I don't get the option of a text based forum reader - I doubt many
forums work with lynx.
 
U

usenet

In comp.lang.perl.misc John Bokma said:
Some people never use them, and hence they use memory and add risks.
So they can choose a newsreader that doesn't have these facilities, no
extra memory use, no risk.
 
U

Ulrich Hobelmann

John said:
In comp.lang.perl.misc John Bokma <[email protected]> wrote:

[ web based boards ]
A choice of news readers to suit different people with different
interfaces,

- different browsers, different stylesheets, different board styles
(themes).

But the UI is still *forced* on you by the website; no choice. There's
only a very limited choice, and it invariably *includes* the UI. With
NNTP *you* choose how to interpret and display the data you get.

Great. How can I, the user, choose, how to use a mod on a given web
server? What if the web server runs another board than PHPBB?
Does the user want this? And with a user stylesheet you can change it
quite radically :)

The look, not the feel.
And in return the user gets: colors, fonts, font sizes, embedding of
images, flash, you name it. Moving avatars, even sounds.

As I wrote earlier, you *could* run a web forum over NNTP, and use HTML
posts instead of plain text. It would have the advantages of NNTP.
Oh, yes, I would love to see an XML interface on the board I use. Maybe
I can just install a mod, or write one myself.

What would that XML be for? Any particular *use*?
 
U

Ulrich Hobelmann

John said:
So your browser doesn't warn you?

About what? I have cookies off, with explicit exception for sites where
I want cookies. When the crappy website doesn't bother to MENTION that
it wants cookies, i.e. give me an error page, how am I to know that it
needs cookies? Do I want EVERY website to ask me "do you allow XY to
set a cookie?" NO!
 
A

axel

Threaded mail-readers too, screen-based editors , spell-checkers, all
useless frills.

All dependent on and only affecting the user who employs them. It
does not require other users to do anything.

It is none of my business whether you used vi, emacs, ed or whatever
to compose your message; whether you ran a spell checker over it;
or how you read messages and respond to them - perhaps you telnet'd
to the news server and made your transactions manually.

Axel
 
J

John Bokma

They are slow

I have no problems with it. Moreover, since I use an NNTP server which is a
bit remote, it's way slower compared to the web forums I use.
They are inflexible
Examples?

They don't allow the user to choose how to view them, the interface is
imposed on the user.

False. The user can pick themes, often several. The user can use a user
stylesheet or several. And you can always write your own client :-D.
They don't have killfiles or scoring

You can install a mod to kill people.
And I have no doubt that there is a scoring mod, or one can be written in a
few hours.
 
J

John Bokma

Kill files

there is a mod for that (at least for phpBB)
Selecting posts and threads based on a scoring system

If there is no mod, one can be easily written.
A huge variety of different newsreaders allowing different users to
access the news in they way they want.

Different browsers, stylesheets, themes.
I don't use all the possibilities (e.g. I don't use kill files) but I
do use a 'minority' text based newsreader because it is ideal for me.
I don't get the option of a text based forum reader - I doubt many
forums work with lynx.

But have you tested it? You just blurb out random statements, based on gut
feelings. Yes, phpBB works with lynx. And I doubt it's a rare exception.
 
J

John Bokma

Ulrich Hobelmann said:
John said:
In comp.lang.perl.misc John Bokma <[email protected]> wrote:

[ web based boards ]
And which useful tools do you require?

A choice of news readers to suit different people with different
interfaces,

- different browsers, different stylesheets, different board styles
(themes).

But the UI is still *forced* on you by the website; no choice.
There's only a very limited choice, and it invariably *includes* the
UI. With NNTP *you* choose how to interpret and display the data you
get.

With a web based forum too. Example:
http://johnbokma.com/perl/phpbb-remote-backup.html
Great. How can I, the user, choose, how to use a mod on a given web
server?

Ask the admin?
What if the web server runs another board than PHPBB?

Check if there is a mod, and ask the admin.
The look, not the feel.

Wild guess: (signed) javascript and iframes? on your local computer?

Otherwise: fetch HTML, parse it, restructure it, and have the
application run a local webserver. Python, Perl, piece of cake.
As I wrote earlier, you *could* run a web forum over NNTP, and use
HTML posts instead of plain text. It would have the advantages of
NNTP.


What would that XML be for? Any particular *use*?

RSS feeds? XML-RPC? Access to the board with a better mark up then HTML
supports?
 
J

John Bokma

Ulrich Hobelmann said:
About what?

That the site wants to set a cookie? Lynx does that.
I have cookies off, with explicit exception for sites where
I want cookies. When the crappy website doesn't bother to MENTION that
it wants cookies, i.e. give me an error page, how am I to know that it
needs cookies? Do I want EVERY website to ask me "do you allow XY to
set a cookie?" NO!

So what do you want? An error page for every site that wants to set a
cookie?
 
J

John Bokma

So they can choose a newsreader that doesn't have these facilities, no
extra memory use, no risk.

That's besides the point, the point was that extra functionality has no
downsides. They have.
 
D

Dragan Cvetkovic

John Bokma said:
Does the user want this? And with a user stylesheet you can change it
quite radically :)

And in return the user gets: colors, fonts, font sizes, embedding of
images, flash, you name it. Moving avatars, even sounds.

Sounds scary. When I want to read a text, I don't need the whole multimedia
experience.

Bye, Dragan

--
Dragan Cvetkovic,

To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer

!!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!
 
J

John Bokma

Dragan Cvetkovic said:
Sounds scary. When I want to read a text, I don't need the whole
multimedia experience.

so use Lynx :)

One forum I visit is about scorpions. And really, it talks a bit easier
about scorpions if you have an image to look at :-D.

In short: Usenet = Usenet, and www = www. Why some people want to move
people from www to Usenet or vice versa is beyond me. If 80% of the current
Usenet users stop posting, Usenet is not going to die :-D
 
D

Denis Kasak

John said:
You can't be sure: errors in the handling of threads can cause a buffer
overflow, same for spelling checking :-D

Yes, they can, provided they are not properly coded. However, those
things only interact locally with the user and have none or very limited
interaction with the user on the other side of the line. As such, they
can hardly be exploitable.
Some people never use them, and hence they use memory and add risks.

On a good newsreader the memory use difference should be irrelevantly
small, even if one does not use the features. I would call that a
nitpicky argument. Also, the risk in question is not comparable because
of the reasons stated above. The kind of risk you are talking about
happens with /any/ software. To stay away from that we shouldn't have
newsreaders (or any other software, for that matter) in the first place.
Of course can HTML be useful on Usenet. The problem is that it will be much
more often abused instead of used.

No, you missed the point. I am arguing that HTML is completely and
utterly /useless/ on Usenet. Time spent for writing HTML in Usenet posts
is comparable to that spent on arguing about coding style or writing
followups to Xah Lee. It adds no further insight on a particular
subject, but _does_ add further delays, spam, bandwidth consumation,
exploits, and is generally a pain in the arse. It's redundant.

-- Denis
 
D

Dragan Cvetkovic

John Bokma said:
(e-mail address removed) wrote:

You can install a mod to kill people.

Gee, didn't know that it's that powerful. One more reason not to use web
forums :)

Dragan

--
Dragan Cvetkovic,

To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer

!!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!
 
D

Denis Kasak

John said:
Ask the admin?

And that is, in your opinion, completely comparable to running your own,
private client? Is the admin obliged to install the mod? Is the admin
even reachable?
Check if there is a mod, and ask the admin.

See above.
Wild guess: (signed) javascript and iframes? on your local computer?

Otherwise: fetch HTML, parse it, restructure it, and have the
application run a local webserver. Python, Perl, piece of cake.

You seem to be forgetting that we are mainly talking about end users
here who most probably will not have the sufficient expertise to do all
that. And even if they do, it's still time consuming.
 
D

Denis Kasak

John said:
so use Lynx :)

One forum I visit is about scorpions. And really, it talks a bit easier
about scorpions if you have an image to look at :-D.

In short: Usenet = Usenet, and www = www. Why some people want to move
people from www to Usenet or vice versa is beyond me. If 80% of the current
Usenet users stop posting, Usenet is not going to die :-D

Agreed. This is actually your first post with which content I agree
totally. From your other posts I got the impression that you are one of
those people that are trying to make Usenet and WWW more similar to one
another.

-- Denis
 
C

CBFalconer

.... snip ...

Same applies to most newsfeeds, depending on retention. If you
want to look a long way back in a thread, use Google Groups.

Except for those anti-social zealots who use an X-noarchive header.
 
T

T Beck

John said:
They are not additions to HTML, like PNG is no addition to HTML, or wav,
mp3, etc.
[snip]

Wasn't the point... I never said they were. HTML is at version 4.0(I
think?) now, AND we've added extra layers of stuff you can use
alongside of it. The internet is a free-flowing evolving place... to
try to protect one little segment like usenet from ever evolving is
just ensuring it's slow death, IMHO.

That's all...

--T Beck
 
R

Rich Teer

people from www to Usenet or vice versa is beyond me. If 80% of the current
Usenet users stop posting, Usenet is not going to die :-D

Heh. Quite the opposite, I reckon: it would get much better (higher SNR)! :)

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich
 

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