Java Soft-Real-Time Processor (JSRTProc)

[Vagelis]

Hi all,

I have written a small library that provides a generic processing
engine for executing tasks with soft-real-time guarantees. Some of you
may think that the words "Java" and "real-time" cannot be used in the
same sentence if you don't also use some form of negation, like "is
not" or "cannot be". That's why I've also added the word "soft" in its
name!

The project is on SourceForge and you can find it here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jsrtproc/

Since I haven't yet written any significant documentation, let me
summarize what this thing is and how it works.

What it is
JSRTProc is a generic, high performance processing engine that
provides soft-real-time guarantees. Generic means that it can do
whatever tasks the user-developer wants, by using the provided
constructs. Real-time means that these tasks are guaranteed to
complete (successfully or not) within a specified time period. And
high performance means that it was designed and implemented to be
efficient with resources and to have low processing overhead.

How it works
The developer implements real-time tasks as Processes. A Process
consists of Stages, which model units of real-time work and can be
blocking or non-blocking for the thread that executes them. Non-
blocking Stages are executed by a small pool of threads with very low
synchronizing overhead, while blocking Stages are executed by larger
task-oriented or service-oriented thread pools. Now, both Stages and
Processes have timeouts which are constantly under tracking by the
Processor. Processing Requests, which represent events or the need to
immediately perform some real-time task and act as the entry-point
into the system, also have timeouts. Timeouts have a hierarchy and the
Processor constantly keeps track of execution of a Process and reacts
accordingly when a timeout expires.

I have written some (incomplete yet) documentation on the project's
Wiki, which you can find here: http://jsrtproc.wiki.sourceforge.net/.
Please have a look for some more information.

If you find this topic interesting, please have a look! I know
documentation is far from complete yet, but I'm doing my best to
complete it. Source code is available on the project's SVN repo, so
you can check it out if you want -- please do! I have made my work
available under the GNU General Public License.

I will be more than glad to discuss about JSRTProc with you and
provide answers to any questions!

Thank you and best regards,
Vagelis

 

[Lew]

I have written a small library that provides a generic processing
engine for executing tasks with soft-real-time guarantees. Some of you
may think that the words "Java" and "real-time" cannot be used in the
same sentence if you don't also use some form of negation, like "is
not" or "cannot be". That's why I've also added the word "soft" in its
name!

Isn't "Javasoft" trademarked? "Java" certainly is. You probably need
permission from Sun to use these trademarks if you don't want to incur massive
legal fees defending against the infringement suit.

 

[Bent C Dalager]

Isn't "Javasoft" trademarked? "Java" certainly is. You probably need
permission from Sun to use these trademarks if you don't want to incur massive
legal fees defending against the infringement suit.

I've already filed the papers for my Micro Soft-Real-Time Office Suite
so don't even think about it!

Cheers,
Bent D

 

[Vagelis]

I've already filed the papers for my Micro Soft-Real-Time Office Suite
so don't even think about it!

I don't need any permission to use the name of the Indonesian island
of Java.

In fact, I also don't need permission to use the name of our star, the
Sun!

Cheers,
Vagelis

 

[Lew]

I don't need any permission to use the name of the Indonesian island
of Java.

In fact, I also don't need permission to use the name of our star, the
Sun!

In those contexts, no. But if you are using either "Java" or "Sun" to
refer to software or computer products, respectively, you are treading
on thin ice.

You might wish to review trademark law before you get yourself in
trouble.

People are free to disregard the law. Civil judgments continue to be
enforced against those who made that choice.

 

[Vagelis]

In those contexts, no.  But if you are using either "Java" or "Sun" to

refer to software or computer products, respectively, you are treading
on thin ice.

You might wish to review trademark law before you get yourself in
trouble.

People are free to disregard the law.  Civil judgments continue to be
enforced against those who made that choice.

Seriously now, I don't understand your concern about my use of the
"Java" trademark, people use it all the time to describe / promote /
advertise their products, and I'm talking about high-circulation
products, like IDEs, Application Servers, etc. You mean to say that a
smallest free project misuses the trademark because it says it is made
for Java??!! Do you mean to say that a developer coming out and saying
that he/she is a "Java expert" should also give credit to Sun for
mentioning the word "Java"?!! I find this absurd!

Now, do you mind if we stay in context to the topic I have raised?
Thank you.

 

[Lew]

Seriously now, I don't understand your concern about my use of the

Just looking out for a fellow practitioner so you don't get diverted
from your main mission with stupid legal conflicts.

"Java" trademark, people use it all the time to describe / promote /
advertise their products, and I'm talking about high-circulation
products, like IDEs, Application Servers, etc. You mean to say that a

Those products do not have "Java" as part of the product name, nor
"Javasoft".

smallest free project misuses the trademark because it says it is made for Java??!!
No.

Do you mean to say that a developer coming out and saying
that he/she is a "Java expert" should also give credit to Sun for
No.

mentioning the word "Java"?!! I find this absurd!

OK, but that's not what I'm saying. You're free to find absurd that
which I'm not saying.

Now, do you mind if we stay in context to the topic I have raised?

As we have been doing. This is an open discussion group. I'm openly
discussing a relevant issue. Likewise, you chose to discuss the issue
of trademark that I brought up, as well you might. That's the beauty
of open discussion groups. You certainly were free to disregard the
point I made, or to take it under advisement and do independent
research with competent legal advisors just in case there were an
issue.

If there's no trademark issue with you naming your software product
"Java something" or "Java Soft-something", then you have no worries.
As I read Sun's verbiage about their trademark, I see a possibility
that they might have a problem with your product name. I openly
discussed that possibility in a forum designed for such open
discussion, in a thread devoted to discussion of that product that you
instigated. It doesn't get much more on-topic than that.

I sincerely hope that my concern on your behalf is groundless and that
you will face no legal reprisals.

 

[Vagelis]

Dear Lew,

Here's a list of some Internet sites / products / projects I very
quickly found that use "Java" in their name:

javaboutique.internet.com
www.javaworld.com
java.dzone.com
freewarejava.com
gcc.gnu.org/java - The GNU Compiler for Java

With the exceptions of freewarejava.com and The GNU Compiler for Java,
the rest don't even display a notice for Sun's trademark. They clearly
use the word "Java" to name their products, attract people that use
the language and make a profit out of it. Have they all asked for and
received permission by Sun to do so? Maybe, but they don't say so, so
there's no way to tell.

I thank you for your concern and interest, but I really think I will
hardly face any problem. Maybe I will just add a trademark notice
somewhere.

Thanks and best regards,
Vagelis

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Here's a list of some Internet sites / products / projects I very
quickly found that use "Java" in their name:

javaboutique.internet.com
www.javaworld.com
java.dzone.com
freewarejava.com
gcc.gnu.org/java - The GNU Compiler for Java

With the exceptions of freewarejava.com and The GNU Compiler for Java,
the rest don't even display a notice for Sun's trademark. They clearly
use the word "Java" to name their products, attract people that use
the language and make a profit out of it. Have they all asked for and
received permission by Sun to do so? Maybe, but they don't say so, so
there's no way to tell.

I thank you for your concern and interest, but I really think I will
hardly face any problem. Maybe I will just add a trademark notice
somewhere.

http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/

<quote>
# Sun trademarks cannot be included in the name of any third party
product, technology, program or service. This includes free and
educational materials, open source distributions, and the titles of
informational web sites. Have fun and come up with a creative new name
for your product!
</quote>

<quote>
DO NOT include a Sun trademark in the name of your product or service,
as in "Acme Java Software" or "Acme Solaris Implementation."
</quote>

<quote>
DO NOT include a Sun trademark in the title of your web site, as in
"Acme Java Guide."
</quote>

I think the message is pretty clear.

Arne

 

[Larry K. Wollensham]

http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/

<quote>
# Sun trademarks cannot be included in the name of any third party
product, technology, program or service. This includes free and
educational materials, open source distributions, and the titles of
informational web sites. Have fun and come up with a creative new name
for your product!
</quote>

<quote>
DO NOT include a Sun trademark in the name of your product or service,
as in "Acme Java Software" or "Acme Solaris Implementation."
</quote>

<quote>
DO NOT include a Sun trademark in the title of your web site, as in
"Acme Java Guide."
</quote>

I think the message is pretty clear.

Not really.

First of all, trademark law itself doesn't give these much in the way of
teeth. Misleading or confusing use of the mark is infringement. But
using "Java" to refer to something being interoperable with/written
in/etc. Java, where it actually is, seems perfectly legitimate, so long
as it's clear you're not falsely claiming to have an endorsement by Sun.

Furthermore, there are actual examples. The website JavaKB is one of
numerous websites with "Java" in their names that Sun appears to
tolerate. A lot of Java-related third-party products have at leash a "J"
in the name, like "IntelliJ IDEA". It's hard to find many third-party
Java libraries without a J in the name, often an acronym name whose
expansion contains the word "Java".

A quick search of Sourceforge reveals several project names:
Java Pathfinder
W6 Java Edition
LeJOS (Java for Lego Mindstorms)
The Java Modeling Language (JML) Home Page
Java Embedding Plugin
PHP/Java Bridge
JGAP: Java Genetic Algorithms Package
Tcl/Java Project
Java-Readline (blue indigo uses this!)
FindBugs™ - Find Bugs in Java Programs (and this)

The last one is itself trademarked, though the trademark doesn't contain
"Java". (Actually trying to get your own trademark on a name containing
"Java" probably IS a very bad idea.)

Those, by the way, were mainly on the first two pages of Google hits for
"java site:sourceforge.net".

"JSRTProc (Java Soft-Real-Time Processor)" seems like it would fit right
in among those others.

I'd suggest that the OP proceed with caution, and explicitly disclaim
somewhere on the front page of his project homepage any official
endorsement by Sun. Including a notice that Java etc. are trademarks of
Sun, and their use is to express facts about the framework rather than
to imply any endorsement by Sun of same, would seem wise.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Not really.

The message is very clear.

No one should have any doubt that SUN do not want products or web sites
with Java in their name unless they have permission from SUN.

First of all, trademark law itself doesn't give these much in the way of
teeth. Misleading or confusing use of the mark is infringement. But
using "Java" to refer to something being interoperable with/written
in/etc. Java, where it actually is, seems perfectly legitimate, so long
as it's clear you're not falsely claiming to have an endorsement by Sun.

For which jurisdictions do you make that claim ?

Furthermore, there are actual examples. The website JavaKB is one of
numerous websites with "Java" in their names that Sun appears to
tolerate. A lot of Java-related third-party products have at leash a "J"
in the name, like "IntelliJ IDEA". It's hard to find many third-party
Java libraries without a J in the name, often an acronym name whose
expansion contains the word "Java".

J is not a trademark. Java is.

A quick search of Sourceforge reveals several project names:
Java Pathfinder
W6 Java Edition
LeJOS (Java for Lego Mindstorms)
The Java Modeling Language (JML) Home Page
Java Embedding Plugin
PHP/Java Bridge
JGAP: Java Genetic Algorithms Package
Tcl/Java Project
Java-Readline (blue indigo uses this!)
FindBugs™ - Find Bugs in Java Programs (and this)

The last one is itself trademarked, though the trademark doesn't contain
"Java". (Actually trying to get your own trademark on a name containing
"Java" probably IS a very bad idea.)

Those, by the way, were mainly on the first two pages of Google hits for
"java site:sourceforge.net".

"JSRTProc (Java Soft-Real-Time Processor)" seems like it would fit right
in among those others.

Some of them may have gotten permission.

Some of them may not.

But "I am not the only one doing this" is usually a very poor
defense in court.

Arne

 

[Lew]

The message is very clear.

No one should have any doubt that SUN do not want products or web sites
with Java in their name unless they have permission from SUN.


For which jurisdictions do you make that claim ?


J is not a trademark. Java is.


Some of them may have gotten permission.

Some of them may not.

But "I am not the only one doing this" is usually a very poor
defense in court.

Let the infringer beware. All we can do is remind people of what Sun said,
and we don't even really have to do that. Most assuredly Sun will take
whatever action it deems appropriate to enforce its trademark. If infringers
have convinced all of Usenet of their correctness, it will not help if they
incur Sun's attention in this matter. They're grownups; they'll deal with the
consequences of their actions.

If I were a Sun employee, I'd mark these threads as evidence against the
infringers, proof that they could reasonably be expected to be aware of Sun's
policies. I'd also want to strike a fine balance between preserving my
trademark and keeping the product popular and in widespread use.

 

[Larry K. Wollensham]

"I am not the only one doing this" is usually a very poor
defense in court.

Try this on for size: "there's safety in numbers". In a crowd, your odds
of getting singled out for special attention are minimal compared to if
you stand alone.

It may not improve his odds if he is hauled into court, but it may well
improve his odds of not getting hauled into court to begin with.

If he is threatened with a lawsuit, his best bet would be to change the
name rather than fight it.

However, it seems fairly ridiculous that we not be permitted to describe
our Java class libraries, frameworks, and so forth as being Java ones.
Having class libraries and similarly named "The Java Foobar Whatsit" and
the like only benefits Sun -- people can easily find third-party Java
tools that add value to Java, it's easy to see how large and thriving
the ecosystem around Java is with a simple Google search, and the like.
Programmers looking for Java libraries and the like can also find them
much more easily if they all tend to have "Java" in their names. And
traditionally, it is not misuse of a trademark to use it in such a
manner. It's very much like marketing a "PC soundcard" at a time when
IBM still sold computers under the brand name "IBM PC". And plenty of
that went on without a peep of complaint from IBM.

Most likely, Sun's lawyers insisted on that verbiage you quoted being on
their web site, even though half of it seems to be overreaching based on
my understanding of trademark law. Also, the presence of numerous
Sourceforge projects that apparently have not been attacked suggests
that either Sun doesn't care to enforce those terms against obviously
harmless targets, or else Sun's permission is easy enough to get that
the OP should have no trouble obtaining it himself.

But, IANAL, so take all of this with a grain of salt. The best advice in
this thread was the one suggesting the OP consult with a lawyer in his
own part of the world.

Unfortunately.

Really, we shouldn't have to consult lawyers, possibly at significant
expense, before we can innovate and introduce new and possibly useful
products into the world that add value, far from doing damage, to the
existing ones. But such is the world we live in that right now we often
do have to consult lawyers.

 

[Lew]

Try this on for size: "there's safety in numbers". In a crowd, your odds
of getting singled out for special attention are minimal compared to if
you stand alone.

It may not improve his odds if he is hauled into court, but it may well
improve his odds of not getting hauled into court to begin with.

So you're saying it's all right to infringe as long as you don't get caught.

I guess that also applies to plagiarism, shoplifting, armed robbery, murder, ...

However, it seems fairly ridiculous that we not be permitted to describe
our Java class libraries, frameworks, and so forth as being Java ones.
Having class libraries and similarly named "The Java Foobar Whatsit" and
the like only benefits Sun -- people can easily find third-party Java
tools that add value to Java, it's easy to see how large and thriving
the ecosystem around Java is with a simple Google search, and the like.
Programmers looking for Java libraries and the like can also find them
much more easily if they all tend to have "Java" in their names. And
traditionally, it is not misuse of a trademark to use it in such a
manner. It's very much like marketing a "PC soundcard" at a time when
IBM still sold computers under the brand name "IBM PC". And plenty of
that went on without a peep of complaint from IBM.

There's a difference between saying that something is made for Java (TM)
systems and using "Java" in the name of the product.

Most likely, Sun's lawyers insisted on that verbiage you quoted being on
their web site, even though half of it seems to be overreaching based on
my understanding of trademark law. Also, the presence of numerous
Sourceforge projects that apparently have not been attacked suggests

Evidenced or speculation?

that either Sun doesn't care to enforce those terms against obviously
harmless targets, or else Sun's permission is easy enough to get that
the OP should have no trouble obtaining it himself.

That might be true. Or it might not. What are the facts?

But, IANAL, so take all of this with a grain of salt. The best advice in
this thread was the one suggesting the OP consult with a lawyer in his
own part of the world.

Unfortunately.

Really, we shouldn't have to consult lawyers, possibly at significant
expense, before we can innovate and introduce new and possibly useful
products into the world that add value, far from doing damage, to the
existing ones. But such is the world we live in that right now we often
do have to consult lawyers.

I don't feel the need to consult a lawyer if I do not intend to use "Java" as
part of my product name. I read the same information Arne quoted, and based
on that I feel that I understand how to avoid infringement.

 

[Larry K. Wollensham]

So you're saying it's all right to infringe as long as you don't get
caught.

I guess that also applies to plagiarism, shoplifting, armed robbery,
murder, ...

What a ridiculous argument. Nobody is plotting to defraud Sun or deceive
people into thinking a product is endorsed by (or even made by) Sun that
is not. We're talking a list of Sourceforge projects here, not a bunch
of street ruffians. I wonder how many of those projects' developers
would find your remarks here borderline-libelous. After all you
basically likened them all to murderers...

There's a difference between saying that something is made for Java (TM)
systems and using "Java" in the name of the product.

I know that, but it is also the case that there's a difference between
infringing a trademark and using it. Product names often reference other
product names with which they interoperate. If they do different things
it is not particularly considered abnormal or any sort of "stealing" by
most.

Calling your own new programming language something with "Java" in the
name would obviously infringe. (The existence of Javascript, which seems
to be trying to differentiate itself by using the name ECMAScript now,
notwithstanding.)

Calling a library -- a Java library -- something with "Java" in the name
seems to be quite commonly done without complaints from Sun and without
seeming to me to be infringing. (Though, IANAL.)

Evidenced or speculation?

The evidence was in the previous post, but you snipped it.

That might be true. Or it might not. What are the facts?

The OP should find out. Someone suggested he call a lawyer. I more or
less suggested he find out what Sun's in-practise policy tends to be
(the Sourceforge listing indicates strongly that this differs from the
policy stated on one of their web pages).

I don't feel the need to consult a lawyer if I do not intend to use
"Java" as part of my product name. I read the same information Arne
quoted, and based on that I feel that I understand how to avoid
infringement.

Oh, do you? Your project name might contain any number of other
companies' trademarks, without your awareness. It might run afoul of a
software patent. Who knows?

You seem much more worried that Sun will sue over using "Java" in the
name of a Java-related product than that some other company might sue
over the project name mentioning "real time processor", which might well
be trademarked by someone, or "soft real-time", or that someone might
even have gotten a patent on doing what he's described it as doing.

I also have the feeling you might be more concerned with flaming people
or scoring points in some way than you are with carrying out a debate on
the merits. The ridiculous hyperbole at the start of your latest post,
and your general tone, suggest this to me. I hope that this turns out
not to actually be the case. We all sometimes say things that on a sober
second look turn out not to be all that sensible or helpful.

(Although I can't recall ever myself implying that a large number of
Sourceforge developers in good standing are doing something that's
tantamount to murder. In fact, previously I can't recall ever hearing
anything quite like that from any non-Microsoft source.)

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Try this on for size: "there's safety in numbers". In a crowd, your odds
of getting singled out for special attention are minimal compared to if
you stand alone.

It may not improve his odds if he is hauled into court, but it may well
improve his odds of not getting hauled into court to begin with.

From the moral perspective: that does not make it right.

From the intellectual perspective: it is an unnecessary risk.

However, it seems fairly ridiculous that we not be permitted to describe
our Java class libraries, frameworks, and so forth as being Java ones.
Having class libraries and similarly named "The Java Foobar Whatsit" and
the like only benefits Sun -- people can easily find third-party Java
tools that add value to Java, it's easy to see how large and thriving
the ecosystem around Java is with a simple Google search, and the like.
Programmers looking for Java libraries and the like can also find them
much more easily if they all tend to have "Java" in their names. And
traditionally, it is not misuse of a trademark to use it in such a
manner. It's very much like marketing a "PC soundcard" at a time when
IBM still sold computers under the brand name "IBM PC". And plenty of
that went on without a peep of complaint from IBM.

Read the link again.

You are allowed to use:

Name: JFoobar
Description: JFoobar allow programs written in Java (TM) language to ...

because in that case Java is not a name but a reference.

And Google indexes more than just the product name, so that should
be just as easy to find.

Most likely, Sun's lawyers insisted on that verbiage you quoted being on
their web site, even though half of it seems to be overreaching based on
my understanding of trademark law.

I ask again: what jurisdiction ?

But, IANAL, so take all of this with a grain of salt. The best advice in
this thread was the one suggesting the OP consult with a lawyer in his
own part of the world.

Assuming that the product is intended for world wide use, then he would
need to consult lawyers all over the world.

Or do the smart thing and just play bu SUN's rules.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

What a ridiculous argument. Nobody is plotting to defraud Sun or deceive
people into thinking a product is endorsed by (or even made by) Sun that
is not.

Lew was very specifically commenting on your claim about safety
in numbers.

We're talking a list of Sourceforge projects here, not a bunch
of street ruffians. I wonder how many of those projects' developers
would find your remarks here borderline-libelous. After all you
basically likened them all to murderers...

Why ?

Lew etc. assumes that they follow the rules.

It is you and original poster that wants to use them as evidence
that the rules are not being followed, which implies that you assume
they do not.

I know that, but it is also the case that there's a difference between
infringing a trademark and using it. Product names often reference other
product names with which they interoperate. If they do different things
it is not particularly considered abnormal or any sort of "stealing" by
most.

reference != use in the name of your product

Calling your own new programming language something with "Java" in the
name would obviously infringe. (The existence of Javascript, which seems
to be trying to differentiate itself by using the name ECMAScript now,
notwithstanding.)

NetScape got permission from SUN to use the name JavaScript.

Calling a library -- a Java library -- something with "Java" in the name
seems to be quite commonly done without complaints from Sun and without
seeming to me to be infringing. (Though, IANAL.)

Not very common.

J prefix is very common.

The evidence was in the previous post, but you snipped it.

I do not remember seeing any particular evidence that those products
with Java in the name do not have permission from SUN and has not
been contacted by SUN's lawyers. Care to repost ?

The OP should find out. Someone suggested he call a lawyer. I more or
less suggested he find out what Sun's in-practise policy tends to be
(the Sourceforge listing indicates strongly that this differs from the
policy stated on one of their web pages).

Basing your product on current policy but violating rules is not
a good foundation for a product.

Arne

 

[Bent C Dalager]

Let the infringer beware. All we can do is remind people of what Sun said,
and we don't even really have to do that. Most assuredly Sun will take
whatever action it deems appropriate to enforce its trademark. If infringers
have convinced all of Usenet of their correctness, it will not help if they
incur Sun's attention in this matter.

When it comes to trademarks this is generally not the case. If a
trademark has become a generic term in the common usage then the
trademark will tend to be lost. It doesn't help Sun much to say they
don't want you to infringe on their "Java" mark if they have a history
of disregarding known infringing uses of that mark.

Of course, this is still the sort of minefield you don't want to be
blundering into by accident.

Cheers,
Bent D

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

When it comes to trademarks this is generally not the case. If a
trademark has become a generic term in the common usage then the
trademark will tend to be lost. It doesn't help Sun much to say they
don't want you to infringe on their "Java" mark if they have a history
of disregarding known infringing uses of that mark.

There are at least one very well-known case of enforcement.

The SUN-MS dispute over MS's usage of Java included trademark
violation.

(that dispute was settled in 2001 when MS paid 20M$ and effectively
stopped its "Java")

The case itself is not comparable to using Java in a name for something
that uses Java, but it is an example of that SUN has enforced their
trademark.

There are less well known stories as well - Google finds:
* http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=37483
*
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/JAVA+TRADEMARK+WHIPS+UP+WEB+TROUBLE-a083949811

Arne

 

[Lew]

When it comes to trademarks this is generally not the case. If a
trademark has become a generic term in the common usage then the
trademark will tend to be lost. It doesn't help Sun much to say they
don't want you to infringe on their "Java" mark if they have a history
of disregarding known infringing uses of that mark.

But that's exactly it: Sun does not have a history of disregarding known
infringement.