left-quote ( ` ) on International keyboards [Prothon]

Discussion in 'Python' started by Mark Hahn, Jun 6, 2004.

  1. Mark Hahn

    Mark Hahn Guest

    Can users with international keyboards tell me if they have problems typing
    the left-quote ( ` ) character? It isn't used much in Python but we are
    thinking of giving it a slightly more important role in Prothon. (I'm not
    going to say what that role is here to avoid starting another 300 message
    thread like I did last time :) If you are curious you can go to the
    Prothon mailing lists at http://prothon.org).
    Mark Hahn, Jun 6, 2004
    #1
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  2. "Mark Hahn" <> wrote in
    news:buLwc.60925$zN5.390@fed1read01:

    > Can users with international keyboards tell me if they have problems
    > typing the left-quote ( ` ) character? It isn't used much in Python
    > but we are thinking of giving it a slightly more important role in
    > Prothon. (I'm not going to say what that role is here to avoid
    > starting another 300 message thread like I did last time :) If you
    > are curious you can go to the Prothon mailing lists at
    > http://prothon.org).


    i can type it as combined character,
    but i'd recomend against it. ' and ` are hard to distinguish for people
    with not so good sight. and the meaning/effect isnt obvious anyway.

    --
    Chris <>
    Chris Liechti, Jun 6, 2004
    #2
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  3. "Mark Hahn" <> writes:

    > Can users with international keyboards tell me if they have problems typing
    > the left-quote ( ` ) character?


    For keyboards using the "combining" key in the place for = and + on US
    keyboards, it's one more key to type (the key plus space). Not a big
    deal, we get used to it. :)
    Tor Iver Wilhelmsen, Jun 6, 2004
    #3
  4. Mark Hahn wrote:

    > Can users with international keyboards tell me if they have problems
    > typing
    > the left-quote ( ` ) character? It isn't used much in Python but we are
    > thinking of giving it a slightly more important role in Prothon. (I'm not
    > going to say what that role is here to avoid starting another 300 message
    > thread like I did last time :) If you are curious you can go to the
    > Prothon mailing lists at http://prothon.org).


    For French keyboards, it's "Right ALT + 7" sometimes followed by a space
    ( yeah, sometimes it's a deadkey like ^ and " are )
    Christophe Cavalaria, Jun 6, 2004
    #4
  5. Mark Hahn

    Mark Hahn Guest

    Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

    > Mark Hahn wrote:
    >
    >> Can users with international keyboards tell me if they have problems
    >> typing
    >> the left-quote ( ` ) character? It isn't used much in Python but we
    >> are thinking of giving it a slightly more important role in Prothon.
    >> (I'm not going to say what that role is here to avoid starting
    >> another 300 message thread like I did last time :) If you are
    >> curious you can go to the Prothon mailing lists at
    >> http://prothon.org).

    >
    > For French keyboards, it's "Right ALT + 7" sometimes followed by a
    > space ( yeah, sometimes it's a deadkey like ^ and " are )


    What does deadkey mean?
    Mark Hahn, Jun 7, 2004
    #5
  6. Mark Hahn wrote:

    >
    > What does deadkey mean?
    >


    The same as 'combined key' above. It doesn't immediately produce output,
    instead you can press some other key after it, ` + a = à, and you can
    produce the literal with ` + space.

    Anyway, it really is a bit hard to discern from ' or ´, even though it
    would otherwise be a great character to be used as an operator in
    programming languages :)

    On the standard Finnish layout there is one key with three dead meanings
    on it, which can be alternated with shift and altgr - a truly wonderful
    piece of engineering that leads to 4 key combinations producing
    characters such as  :)
    Tuure Laurinolli, Jun 7, 2004
    #6
  7. Mark Hahn

    Mark Hahn Guest

    Tuure Laurinolli wrote:
    > Mark Hahn wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> What does deadkey mean?
    >>

    >
    > The same as 'combined key' above. It doesn't immediately produce
    > output, instead you can press some other key after it, ` + a = à, and
    > you can produce the literal with ` + space.


    Thanks. I can see where the name comes from.

    I never thought of it being used as an accent mark. I always thought of it
    as a crummy left-quote. That explains why it is always drawn so high.

    We are thinking of using it as a marker for "symbols" in Prothon. They are
    like strings but can only be legal variable labels: `var, `init_, `x,
    `account_balance, etc. I think in our application they look good and won't
    be mistaken for quotes since they don't come in pairs. They are readable
    and distinquishable in this context. Also, symbols won't be used that
    frequently so typing won't be too much of a pain.
    Mark Hahn, Jun 7, 2004
    #7
  8. Mark Hahn wrote:
    > We are thinking of using it as a marker for "symbols" in Prothon. They are
    > like strings but can only be legal variable labels: `var, `init_, `x,
    > `account_balance, etc. I think in our application they look good and won't
    > be mistaken for quotes since they don't come in pairs. They are readable
    > and distinquishable in this context. Also, symbols won't be used that
    > frequently so typing won't be too much of a pain.


    Why not use something like $ or something? I'm not familiar with Prothon, so
    I don't know if $ is already used for something, but it's a character
    normally used with symbols/placeholders/etc.

    --
    Timo "WT" Virkkala
    Timo Virkkala, Jun 7, 2004
    #8
  9. "Mark Hahn" <> writes:

    > I never thought of it being used as an accent mark. I always thought of it
    > as a crummy left-quote. That explains why it is always drawn so high.


    You may want to have a look at

    <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html>

    for details. Personally, I don't think it was a good idea to define
    character 0x60 as GRAVE ACCENT, but that's what we have ...

    --
    Michael Piotrowski, M.A. <>
    Public key at <http://www.dynalabs.de/mxp/pubkey.txt>
    Michael Piotrowski, Jun 7, 2004
    #9
  10. Mark Hahn

    Mark Hahn Guest

    Timo Virkkala wrote:

    > Mark Hahn wrote:
    >> We are thinking of using it as a marker for "symbols" in Prothon.
    >> They are like strings but can only be legal variable labels: `var,
    >> `init_, `x, `account_balance, etc. I think in our application they
    >> look good and won't be mistaken for quotes since they don't come in
    >> pairs. They are readable and distinquishable in this context.
    >> Also, symbols won't be used that frequently so typing won't be too
    >> much of a pain.

    >
    > Why not use something like $ or something? I'm not familiar with
    > Prothon, so I don't know if $ is already used for something, but it's
    > a character normally used with symbols/placeholders/etc.


    We aren't using any of the oddball symbols any more, so $ is free. I'm a
    little wary of proposing using it though. The last time I proposed using $
    Prothon was accused of being Perl :)

    I'll put it up for vote on the Prothon mailing list. You can come by and
    vote for it :)

    Is $ easier to type on foreign keyboards?
    Mark Hahn, Jun 7, 2004
    #10
  11. Mark Hahn

    Miki Tebeka Guest

    Hello Mark,

    > Can users with international keyboards tell me if they have problems typing
    > the left-quote ( ` ) character?

    No problem with Hebrew.

    Bye.
    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Miki Tebeka <>
    The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys.
    Miki Tebeka, Jun 7, 2004
    #11
  12. "Mark Hahn" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Tuure Laurinolli wrote:
    > > Mark Hahn wrote:
    > >
    > >>
    > >> What does deadkey mean?
    > >>

    > >
    > > The same as 'combined key' above. It doesn't immediately produce
    > > output, instead you can press some other key after it, ` + a = à, and
    > > you can produce the literal with ` + space.

    >
    > Thanks. I can see where the name comes from.
    >
    > I never thought of it being used as an accent mark. I always thought of it
    > as a crummy left-quote. That explains why it is always drawn so high.
    >
    > We are thinking of using it as a marker for "symbols" in Prothon. They are
    > like strings but can only be legal variable labels: `var, `init_, `x,
    > `account_balance, etc. I think in our application they look good and won't
    > be mistaken for quotes since they don't come in pairs. They are readable
    > and distinquishable in this context. Also, symbols won't be used that
    > frequently so typing won't be too much of a pain.


    Be aware of the dangers of bad typesetting ! I once had a hard time to
    figure out unix commands where the ` was set as a ' in a commercial
    book about unix!

    All the best !
    Norbert
    Norbert Klamann, Jun 7, 2004
    #12
  13. Mark Hahn wrote:

    > We aren't using any of the oddball symbols any more, so $ is free. I'm a
    > little wary of proposing using it though. The last time I proposed using $
    > Prothon was accused of being Perl :)


    I already said I dislike $ the las time i was tried to be used. The
    reason for me is that $ looks just like any other letter whereas ` is
    immediately recognizable as a special character.

    THe other person who shared my opinion had much better argumentation
    than my "it looks wrong", but basically it came down to the same thing.
    Just with words such as "baseline" and "sigil":

    > Is $ easier to type on foreign keyboards?


    I doubt that, probably almost every special character on non-US
    keyboards requires two sequential keypresses or a combination. ` is `
    followed by space, $ is altgr + 4. Personally I think ` is actually
    easier ty type.
    Tuure Laurinolli, Jun 7, 2004
    #13
  14. Mark Hahn wrote:

    > Timo Virkkala wrote:
    >
    >> Mark Hahn wrote:
    >>> We are thinking of using it as a marker for "symbols" in Prothon.
    >>> They are like strings but can only be legal variable labels: `var,
    >>> `init_, `x, `account_balance, etc. I think in our application they
    >>> look good and won't be mistaken for quotes since they don't come in
    >>> pairs. They are readable and distinquishable in this context.
    >>> Also, symbols won't be used that frequently so typing won't be too
    >>> much of a pain.

    >>
    >> Why not use something like $ or something? I'm not familiar with
    >> Prothon, so I don't know if $ is already used for something, but it's
    >> a character normally used with symbols/placeholders/etc.

    >
    > We aren't using any of the oddball symbols any more, so $ is free. I'm a
    > little wary of proposing using it though. The last time I proposed using
    > $ Prothon was accused of being Perl :)
    >
    > I'll put it up for vote on the Prothon mailing list. You can come by and
    > vote for it :)
    >
    > Is $ easier to type on foreign keyboards?


    $ is one of the only thing easy to type in a french keyboard. Thanks god
    that we don't need to type too many {} in Python for they are the worst :)

    Of course, I can't speak for other keyboard layouts.
    Christophe Cavalaria, Jun 7, 2004
    #14
  15. Mark Hahn wrote:
    > Is $ easier to type on foreign keyboards?


    Well.. It's AltGr+4 on the Finnish keyboard, so not too hard. Easier than
    {[]}\, since they are AltGr+7890+ and you can really do them with one hand,
    whereas @£$ can be done with two hands.

    --
    Timo "WT" Virkkala
    Timo Virkkala, Jun 8, 2004
    #15
  16. Timo Virkkala wrote:

    > Mark Hahn wrote:
    >
    >> Is $ easier to type on foreign keyboards?

    >
    >
    > Well.. It's AltGr+4 on the Finnish keyboard, so not too hard. Easier
    > than {[]}\, since they are AltGr+7890+ and you can really do them with
    > one hand, whereas @£$ can be done with two hands.


    .... reading that sentence and realizing that it's a bit strange:

    It's not really the fact that it's one/two-handed, but with AltGr, I have to
    twist my right hand to a strange angle with the one-handed chars. The
    two-handed ones are faster to type.

    --
    Timo "WT" Virkkala
    Timo Virkkala, Jun 8, 2004
    #16
  17. "Mark Hahn" <> wrote in message news:<buLwc.60925$zN5.390@fed1read01>...
    > Can users with international keyboards tell me if they have problems typing
    > the left-quote ( ` ) character? It isn't used much in Python but we are


    Single keystroke for me (Cyrillic/Russian).

    -kv
    Konstantin Veretennicov, Jun 8, 2004
    #17
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