Link rel="start"

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 17, 2004.

  1. Hi,
    Is it better to write the
    title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is or in
    English?
    For example
    <LINK rel="start"
    type="text/html"
    href="schuhe-art-86.html"
    title="1st page about shoes in German">
    on this page in German
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe-art-86.html


    Should the title be the same as the title of the page
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe-art-86.html
    or give information about which kind of documents that page is the start
    for
    (for example 1st page about shoes in German) ?



    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/herrskor-artikel-86.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 17, 2004
    #1
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  2. On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    <> wrote:

    > Is it better to write the
    > title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is or
    > in English?


    Keep your visitor in mind here. What language will s/he use? What language
    will s/he expect to be able to use for your pages? Use that language.
    BTW: I don't know is link rel="start" is well supported. I know link
    rel="home" or link rel="index" are.

    > Should the title be the same as the title of the page


    It can be, assuming you mean title in the head of the page and title as
    appearing in the page itself. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. The
    title in the head of the page serves more than one function. It appears in
    the very top of the browser chrome (IE) or in the tabs (FF, OP) to show
    your visitor where s/he's at. It also has a huge function for search
    enginges such as Google to be able to tell what your page is about. The
    title in the page itself is largely there for your human visitor, although
    search engines do seem to pay attention to content that is marked up with
    <h#> tags as header elements.

    I usually have a different title in the head of my page than on the page
    itself. For example:

    <html>
    <head>
    <title>Example | An example page on titles for and in html
    pages</title>
    </head>

    <body>
    <h1>Example page on titles</h1>

    <h2>Title in the head of an html page</h2>

    <p>Some text here</p>

    <h2>Title in the html page itself</h2>

    <p>More text here</p>
    </body>
    </html>


    --
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    Barbara de Zoete, Dec 17, 2004
    #2
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  3. "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:eek:psi49gyi2x5vgts@zoete_b...
    > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > Is it better to write the
    > > title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is or
    > > in English?

    >
    > Keep your visitor in mind here. What language will s/he use? What language
    > will s/he expect to be able to use for your pages? Use that language.
    > BTW: I don't know is link rel="start" is well supported. I know link
    > rel="home" or link rel="index" are.


    This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used by
    search engines, not by users as far as I understand
    See: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4.1
    So, the question is which language search engines speak!!


    > > Should the title be the same as the title of the page

    >
    > It can be, assuming you mean title in the head of the page and title as
    > appearing in the page itself. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. The
    > title in the head of the page serves more than one function. It appears in
    > the very top of the browser chrome (IE) or in the tabs (FF, OP) to show
    > your visitor where s/he's at. It also has a huge function for search
    > enginges such as Google to be able to tell what your page is about. The
    > title in the page itself is largely there for your human visitor, although
    > search engines do seem to pay attention to content that is marked up with
    > <h#> tags as header elements.




    See above
    > I usually have a different title in the head of my page than on the page
    > itself. For example:
    >
    > <html>
    > <head>
    > <title>Example | An example page on titles for and in html
    > pages</title>
    > </head>
    >
    > <body>
    > <h1>Example page on titles</h1>
    >
    > <h2>Title in the head of an html page</h2>
    >
    > <p>Some text here</p>
    >
    > <h2>Title in the html page itself</h2>
    >
    > <p>More text here</p>
    > </body>
    > </html>


    See http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4.1


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe-art-86.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 17, 2004
    #3
  4. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:B0Cwd.11381$...
    >
    > "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:eek:psi49gyi2x5vgts@zoete_b...
    > > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Is it better to write the
    > > > title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is

    or
    > > > in English?

    > >
    > > Keep your visitor in mind here. What language will s/he use? What

    language
    > > will s/he expect to be able to use for your pages? Use that language.
    > > BTW: I don't know is link rel="start" is well supported. I know link
    > > rel="home" or link rel="index" are.

    >
    > This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used by
    > search engines, not by users as far as I understand
    > See: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4.1
    > So, the question is which language search engines speak!!


    Under
    "Indicate the beginning of a collection "
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4.1

    there is an example in English but it might be a coincidence.
    Furthermore, I cannot see the actual page and then know which title it has
    in the code.



    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe-art-86.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 17, 2004
    #4
  5. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Steve Pugh Guest

    Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >"Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    >news:eek:psi49gyi2x5vgts@zoete_b...
    >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > Is it better to write the
    >> > title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is or
    >> > in English?


    The same as the page. If a user is browsing a German language page
    then they will expect to see links in German, whether they appear as
    part of the page or as part of the links toolbar.

    >> Keep your visitor in mind here. What language will s/he use? What language
    >> will s/he expect to be able to use for your pages? Use that language.
    >> BTW: I don't know is link rel="start" is well supported. I know link
    >> rel="home" or link rel="index" are.

    >
    >This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used by
    >search engines, not by users as far as I understand


    No, they're used by users. The link toolbar is displayed in Opera,
    Mozilla and Lynx, amongst others, and can be installed as an addon in
    Firefox and IE.

    I don't know if any search engine follows <link>s, but if they do then
    they'll probably treat them as normal links.

    >See: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4.1


    Did you mean
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4 ?

    I presume you're referring to the section headed "ndicate the
    beginning of a collection". As far as I know no search engine does
    that. But they might follow the link anyway.

    >So, the question is which language search engines speak!!


    All of them. Badly.

    Steve
    Steve Pugh, Dec 17, 2004
    #5
  6. On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:26:41 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    <> wrote:

    > "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:eek:psi49gyi2x5vgts@zoete_b...
    >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Is it better to write the
    >>> title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is
    >>> or
    >>> in English?

    >>
    >> Keep your visitor in mind here. What language will s/he use? What
    >> language
    >> will s/he expect to be able to use for your pages? Use that language.
    >> BTW: I don't know is link rel="start" is well supported. I know link
    >> rel="home" or link rel="index" are.

    >
    > This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used by
    > search engines,


    And by all who use Opera, Lynx, FireFox. Thus by me.

    > not by users as far as I understand


    You understand wrong. Go hypnotise yourself, humming 'users, users, users,
    users' for about fourty minutes. Search engines will love you if you write
    and design with accessibility and usablitity in mind.



    --
    Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
    Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
    Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
    Barbara de Zoete, Dec 17, 2004
    #6
  7. "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:eek:psi5smnrfx5vgts@zoete_b...
    > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:26:41 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > > news:eek:psi49gyi2x5vgts@zoete_b...
    > >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> Is it better to write the
    > >>> title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is
    > >>> or
    > >>> in English?
    > >>
    > >> Keep your visitor in mind here. What language will s/he use? What
    > >> language
    > >> will s/he expect to be able to use for your pages? Use that language.
    > >> BTW: I don't know is link rel="start" is well supported. I know link
    > >> rel="home" or link rel="index" are.

    > >
    > > This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used by
    > > search engines,

    >
    > And by all who use Opera, Lynx, FireFox. Thus by me.
    >
    > > not by users as far as I understand

    >
    > You understand wrong. Go hypnotise yourself, humming 'users, users, users,
    > users' for about fourty minutes. Search engines will love you if you write
    > and design with accessibility and usablitity in mind.


    I think you misunderstod me. I have navigation links for the users on the
    site. So I write navigation links for the user and Link rel="start" for
    search engines.
    By the way, I do not think that most of the users visiting my website use
    Opera, Lynx, FireFox. So, do you see such Link rel="start" if you use IE?
    I suppose you do not.


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe-art-86.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 17, 2004
    #7
  8. On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:19:30 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    <> wrote:

    > "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:eek:psi5smnrfx5vgts@zoete_b...
    >
    >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:26:41 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    >>> news:eek:psi49gyi2x5vgts@zoete_b...
    >>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Is it better to write the
    >>>>> title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is
    >>>>> or
    >>>>> in English?
    >>>>
    >>>> Keep your visitor in mind here. What language will s/he use? What
    >>>> language
    >>>> will s/he expect to be able to use for your pages? Use that language.
    >>>> BTW: I don't know is link rel="start" is well supported. I know link
    >>>> rel="home" or link rel="index" are.
    >>>
    >>> This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used by
    >>> search engines,

    >>
    >> And by all who use Opera, Lynx, FireFox. Thus by me.
    >>
    >>> not by users as far as I understand

    >>
    >> You understand wrong. Go hypnotise yourself, humming 'users, users,
    >> users,
    >> users' for about fourty minutes. Search engines will love you if you
    >> write
    >> and design with accessibility and usablitity in mind.

    >
    > I think you misunderstod me.


    No I did not.

    > I have navigation links for the users on the
    > site. So I write navigation links for the user
    >


    So far so good.

    > and Link rel="start" for
    > search engines.
    >


    Here you go again. WRONG! *You*are*wrong* . One: don't write for search
    engines. Do good for visitors, search engines will have no problem what so
    ever indexing your site.

    > By the way, I do not think that most of the users visiting my website use
    > Opera, Lynx, FireFox. So, do you see such Link rel="start" if you use
    > IE?


    You miss the point entirely. I do not use IE and with me milions of others
    do not use IE. And with IE you can get an extension (IIRC) that displays
    the pagemenu you build *for*visitors* with the link element in the head of
    a page.

    > I suppose you do not.
    >


    But, never mind. Byebye,


    --
    Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
    Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
    Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
    Barbara de Zoete, Dec 17, 2004
    #8
  9. "Steve Pugh" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    > >"Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > >news:eek:psi49gyi2x5vgts@zoete_b...
    > >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:36:57 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > Is it better to write the
    > >> > title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start page is

    or
    > >> > in English?

    >
    > The same as the page.


    Ok. I changed it.

    > Did you mean
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4 ?
    >
    > I presume you're referring to the section headed "ndicate the
    > beginning of a collection".


    Yes


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 17, 2004
    #9
  10. "Barbara de Zoete" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:eek:psi55tbd5x5vgts@zoete_b...
    > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:19:30 GMT, Luigi Donatello Asero
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > I have navigation links for the users on the
    > > site. So I write navigation links for the user
    > >

    >
    > So far so good.
    >
    > > and Link rel="start" for
    > > search engines.
    > >

    >
    > Here you go again. WRONG! *You*are*wrong* . One: don't write for search
    > engines. Do good for visitors, search engines will have no problem what so
    > ever indexing your site.



    Did you read
    "B.4 Notes on helping search engines index your Web site" ?
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4

    I am trying to help them. You do not need do it, if you do not want to.

    > > By the way, I do not think that most of the users visiting my website

    use
    > > Opera, Lynx, FireFox. So, do you see such Link rel="start" if you use
    > > IE?

    >
    > You miss the point entirely. I do not use IE and with me milions of others
    > do not use IE. And with IE you can get an extension (IIRC) that displays
    > the pagemenu you build *for*visitors* with the link element in the head of
    > a page.



    How many people use this extension?

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 17, 2004
    #10
  11. Steve Pugh <> wrote:

    >>> > Is it better to write the
    >>> > title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start
    >>> > page is or in English?

    >
    > The same as the page. If a user is browsing a German language page
    > then they will expect to see links in German, whether they appear
    > as part of the page or as part of the links toolbar.


    Maybe. This language issue is a bit debatable, and fairly theoretical
    at present. But if the current page and linked page are in the same
    language, then it's difficult to find a reason why the title attribute
    would have a different language. In principle, though, it is possible
    that the current page is in German and the start page is in English. In
    that case, I would write the title text in English (and use lang="en"
    in the <link> element). The title text, if shown to user, would the act
    as a clue to the fact that the destination is in English. But one might
    also use a bilingual title text.

    >>This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is
    >>used by search engines, not by users as far as I understand

    >
    > No, they're used by users.


    By a small number of users, I would say, unfortunately.

    > The link toolbar is displayed in Opera,
    > Mozilla and Lynx, amongst others, and can be installed as an addon
    > in Firefox and IE.


    It's unfortunate that the feature was stripped away from Firefox (and
    it isn't "on" in Mozilla by default, if I remember correctly).

    Worse still, rel="start" (which is semi-defined in the HTML
    specification) is virtually unsupported, or worse. Both Opera and
    Mozilla treat it as denoting the home (index) page of the site.
    A "Top" or "Home" button is generated. This is not what the spec says:
    according to it, rel="start" means the <link> "refers to the first
    document in a collection of documents". The natural interpretation,
    especially reading
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4
    is that this is meant to relate to a _sequential_ collection of
    documents, e.g. corresponding to chapters of a book. To refer to a main
    page, rel="contents" could be used, though the spec is vague.

    Such confusion won't improve the popularity of using site navigation
    created with <link>, among authors or among users, I'm afraid.

    > I don't know if any search engine follows <link>s, but if they do
    > then they'll probably treat them as normal links.


    Maybe. They _could_ use the better, though. I have no objection to
    using theoretically useful markup if it does not have any known
    drawbacks; it might become useful some day.

    But in practical authoring, <link> is fairly irrelevant (except for
    referring to external style sheets of course).

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Dec 17, 2004
    #11
  12. "Jukka K. Korpela" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:Xns95C375F93EBjkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31...
    > Steve Pugh <> wrote:
    >
    > >>> > Is it better to write the
    > >>> > title of a Link rel="start" in the same language as the start
    > >>> > page is or in English?

    > >
    > > The same as the page. If a user is browsing a German language page
    > > then they will expect to see links in German, whether they appear
    > > as part of the page or as part of the links toolbar.

    >
    > Maybe. This language issue is a bit debatable, and fairly theoretical
    > at present. But if the current page and linked page are in the same
    > language, then it's difficult to find a reason why the title attribute
    > would have a different language. In principle, though, it is possible
    > that the current page is in German and the start page is in English. In
    > that case, I would write the title text in English (and use lang="en"
    > in the <link> element). The title text, if shown to user, would the act
    > as a clue to the fact that the destination is in English. But one might
    > also use a bilingual title text.



    I wrote
    <LINK rel="start"
    type="text/html"
    href="schuhe-art-86.html"
    title="Italien - Schuhe - Artikel 86<">
    <link rel="next" href="schuhe-artikel-1166.html"/>
    <link rel="previous" href="schuhe-artikel-1168.html"/>

    on
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe-artikel-1167.html

    Should I write even the words "start" "next" "previous" in the code in
    German?
    If I did, the next question might be whether one should write words like
    "body" in the html code in different languages.
    I suppose that it should not work..


    > Worse still, rel="start" (which is semi-defined in the HTML
    > specification) is virtually unsupported, or worse. Both Opera and
    > Mozilla treat it as denoting the home (index) page of the site.
    > A "Top" or "Home" button is generated. This is not what the spec says:
    > according to it, rel="start" means the <link> "refers to the first
    > document in a collection of documents". The natural interpretation,
    > especially reading
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4
    > is that this is meant to relate to a _sequential_ collection of
    > documents, e.g. corresponding to chapters of a book. To refer to a main
    > page, rel="contents" could be used, though the spec is vague.



    Yes and I am trying to use it for a collection of shoes, so "start" does not
    correspond to the home page, but only to the first page of such a
    collection.

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/schuhe.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 18, 2004
    #12
  13. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > <LINK rel="start"
    > type="text/html"
    > href="schuhe-art-86.html"
    > title="Italien - Schuhe - Artikel 86<">
    > <link rel="next" href="schuhe-artikel-1166.html"/>
    > <link rel="previous" href="schuhe-artikel-1168.html"/>

    - -
    > Should I write even the words "start" "next" "previous" in the code
    > in German?


    Of course not. The rel attribute takes keywords as values, and the
    keywords are part of HTML, though not a well-standardized part.

    Attributes that are declared as %Text; in the DTD have expressions in a
    human language as their values, and generally might be shown to users
    and should therefore be written in the language used otherwise in the
    document. There's nothing magic about the entity %Text; - syntactically
    it means just CDATA, but in effect it contains a comment-like hint.

    Other attributes, whether declared CDATA or NAME or something else,
    generally take values that are strings formed according to some formal
    rules.

    However, in the special case of the rel attribute, using e.g.
    rel="Anfang" would mean that browsers effectively treat "Anfang" as an
    unrecognized keyword and might actually show it in a site navigation
    menu they generate. This would not be very user-friendly, since
    browsers generally present the _recognized_ keywords as _localized_
    buttons in a site navigation menu. For example, on Mozilla (English
    version), I would see
    Top Up First Previous Next Last Document More
    (with those entries greyed out that don't work because there's no
    suitable <link> element in the document - and rel="start" activates
    "Top")
    with "More" as opening a pulldown menu with "anfang" (in all lower case
    - Mozilla seems to normalize the values that way) as one item.

    > If I did, the next question might be whether one should write words
    > like "body" in the html code in different languages.


    More or less, though it's a yet another level of being a "language".

    > - - I am trying to use it for a collection of shoes, so "start"
    > does not correspond to the home page, but only to the first page of
    > such a collection.


    So your usage would correspond to the idea in the specification, but
    hardly any browser implements it that way. Instead, I would see e.g.
    a "Top" button in a site navigation menu. As an experienced user,
    I _might_ realize that "Top" might mean either 'top' or 'start'.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Dec 18, 2004
    #13
  14. Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:

    >>> This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used by
    >>> search engines,


    <a> links are also used by search engines. Lots of things are used by search
    engines, that doesn't stop them being used by users.

    >> And by all who use Opera, Lynx, FireFox. Thus by me.
    >>
    >>> not by users as far as I understand

    >>
    >> You understand wrong.
    >> <snippage>


    > I think you misunderstod me. I have navigation links for the users on the
    > site. So I write navigation links for the user and Link rel="start" for
    > search engines.


    Don't. Write for the web instead. Almost all good markup will benefit both
    users and robots trying to index your site. Make sure the markup is good
    and *sane* - if it doesn't make sense to users, then its libel to have a
    negative impact with search engines too.

    > By the way, I do not think that most of the users visiting my website use
    > Opera, Lynx, FireFox.


    Maybe not today, how about tomorrow? Web browsers are replacing that OS
    component at an increasing rate. (Although with that attitude it could be
    that any of your visitors who make the switch decide that your site isn't
    friendly enough and find an alternative).

    > So, do you see such Link rel="start" if you use IE?
    > I suppose you do not.


    I'm pretty sure someone mentioned a plugin for it earlier that would expose
    that functionality. Either way, designing for a browser is a mistake -
    design for the web.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
    David Dorward, Dec 18, 2004
    #14
  15. Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:

    > Should I write even the words "start" "next" "previous" in the code in
    > German?


    No, its code not prose.

    > If I did, the next question might be whether one should write words like
    > "body" in the html code in different languages.


    Exactly.

    >> Worse still, rel="start" (which is semi-defined in the HTML
    >> specification) is virtually unsupported, or worse. Both Opera and
    >> Mozilla treat it as denoting the home (index) page of the site.


    > Yes and I am trying to use it for a collection of shoes, so "start" does
    > not correspond to the home page


    Given that, it might be wise to avoid it altogether.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
    David Dorward, Dec 18, 2004
    #15
  16. "David Dorward" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:cq0qk1$hs2$1$...
    > Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    >
    > >>> This kind of link is placed in the head of the html code and is used

    by
    > >>> search engines,

    >
    > <a> links are also used by search engines. Lots of things are used by

    search
    > engines, that doesn't stop them being used by users.
    >
    > >> And by all who use Opera, Lynx, FireFox. Thus by me.
    > >>
    > >>> not by users as far as I understand
    > >>
    > >> You understand wrong.
    > >> <snippage>

    >
    > > I think you misunderstod me. I have navigation links for the users on

    the
    > > site. So I write navigation links for the user and Link rel="start" for
    > > search engines.

    >
    > Don't. Write for the web instead. Almost all good markup will benefit both
    > users and robots trying to index your site. Make sure the markup is good
    > and *sane* - if it doesn't make sense to users, then its libel to have a
    > negative impact with search engines too.



    Writing for the search engines too, does not mean that one does not write
    for the users.
    Thus, I do not share your opinion.

    > > By the way, I do not think that most of the users visiting my website

    use
    > > Opera, Lynx, FireFox.

    >
    > Maybe not today, how about tomorrow? Web browsers are replacing that OS
    > component at an increasing rate. (Although with that attitude it could be
    > that any of your visitors who make the switch decide that your site isn't
    > friendly enough and find an alternative).



    We do not know either how long HTML will be used

    > > So, do you see such Link rel="start" if you use IE?
    > > I suppose you do not.

    >
    > I'm pretty sure someone mentioned a plugin for it earlier that would

    expose
    > that functionality. Either way, designing for a browser is a mistake -
    > design for the web.



    I do not share your opinion.
    I design for both. You may design only for the users if you want to.


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/herrskor-italien-art-1168.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 19, 2004
    #16
  17. "David Dorward" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:cq0qoj$hs2$2$...
    > Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    >
    > >> Worse still, rel="start" (which is semi-defined in the HTML
    > >> specification) is virtually unsupported, or worse. Both Opera and
    > >> Mozilla treat it as denoting the home (index) page of the site.

    >
    > > Yes and I am trying to use it for a collection of shoes, so "start" does
    > > not correspond to the home page

    >
    > Given that, it might be wise to avoid it altogether.


    I do not share your opinion.
    Some of you seem to suggest that one should design only for the user.
    I prefer to design both for the user and for search engines.
    Designing for the search engines as well helps users too, because they can
    find my pages more easily.


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/herrskor-italien-art-1168.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 19, 2004
    #17
  18. "Jukka K. Korpela" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:Xns95C36B6DB2CA1jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31...
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >
    > So your usage would correspond to the idea in the specification, but
    > hardly any browser implements it that way.


    They may not do it but I am using it for search engines and the very title
    of the source I quoted
    "B.4 Notes on helping search engines index your Web site" ?
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4
    refers to "helping search engines".

    Instead, I would see e.g.
    > a "Top" button in a site navigation menu. As an experienced user,
    > I _might_ realize that "Top" might mean either 'top' or 'start'.




    If you click the key on the left with the label
    Herrskor från Italien (38-48)
    on the page
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/herrskor-italien-art-1168.html
    you open the first page of the collection I am talking about.

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/herrskor-italien-art-1168.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 19, 2004
    #18
  19. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:555xd.11504$...
    >
    > "Jukka K. Korpela" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:Xns95C36B6DB2CA1jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31...
    > > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    > >
    > > So your usage would correspond to the idea in the specification, but
    > > hardly any browser implements it that way.

    >
    > They may not do it but I am using it for search engines and the very title
    > of the source I quoted
    > "B.4 Notes on helping search engines index your Web site"
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4
    > refers to "helping search engines".


    No question mark after "B.4 Notes on helping search engines index your Web
    site"


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/herrskor-italien-art-1168.html
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Dec 19, 2004
    #19
  20. Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:

    > Some of you seem to suggest that one should design only for the user.
    > I prefer to design both for the user and for search engines.


    I suggest designing for the web - which means designing for users and search
    engines (and everything else) but avoiding writing code which will trigger
    known bugs.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
    David Dorward, Dec 19, 2004
    #20
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