Mac IE 5 issues

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Ken Walden, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. Ken Walden

    Ken Walden Guest

    Hello all,

    I have a crudely put together web site I've fashioned for our business,
    which is now displaying fine on all the browsers I've been able to try,
    except for IE 5 on Mac. And it's totally dead on there.

    The URL is http://www.wordsworthcoop.com/new/

    If you have access to IE 5 on a Mac, and can look at it, and have any
    guess as to why it looks like this, I would love to hear it. What I see
    when I look is that the the whole page spans off of the right edge of
    the screen (even though it's supposed to only have a width of 800) and
    worse, there's no horizontal scrollbar. It appears that none of the
    text in the main column is wrapping, the third column isn't even
    visible.

    The site is a rather crude combination of CSS and tables that I hacked
    together as I was learning how to deal with CSS. So I imagine that
    something in there has bogeyed it all up. I have searched the web high
    and low and seen no mention of anything similar. I know have found some
    ways that I could probably better design it without tables, but at this
    point I'd rather just get it up, especially since it works in all the
    other browsers. I'm hoping someone may have an idea. It has been
    particularly hard to work on because I don't have a Mac to work on, and
    therefore can't really tinker. I have to try changing something and
    then wait for access to a Mac to test it.

    Thanks for your time,

    Ken Walden
    Ken Walden, Nov 7, 2005
    #1
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  2. Ken Walden

    brucie Guest

    In post <news:>,
    Ken Walden said:

    > The URL is http://www.wordsworthcoop.com/new/


    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...ordsworthcoop.com/new/&warning=1&profile=css2

    > If you have access to IE 5 on a Mac, and can look at it, and have any
    > guess as to why it looks like this,


    i wouldn't waste my time pandering to such a prehistoric browser.

    you're probably gunna need to read these:

    How to post from Google:
    http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/

    How do I quote correctly in Usenet? - Quoting and Answering
    http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html

    --
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    brucie, Nov 7, 2005
    #2
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  3. Ken Walden

    dorayme Guest

    > From: "Ken Walden" <>
    > Hello all,
    >
    > I have a crudely put together web site I've fashioned for our business,
    > which is now displaying fine on all the browsers I've been able to try,
    > except for IE 5 on Mac. And it's totally dead on there.
    >
    > The URL is http://www.wordsworthcoop.com/new/
    >
    > If you have access to IE 5 on a Mac, and can look at it, and have any
    > guess as to why it looks like this, I would love to hear it. What I see
    > when I look is that the the whole page spans off of the right edge of
    > the screen (even though it's supposed to only have a width of 800) and
    > worse, there's no horizontal scrollbar. It appears that none of the
    > text in the main column is wrapping, the third column isn't even
    > visible.
    >
    > The site is a rather crude combination of CSS and tables that I hacked
    > together as I was learning how to deal with CSS. So I imagine that
    > something in there has bogeyed it all up. I have searched the web high
    > and low and seen no mention of anything similar. I know have found some
    > ways that I could probably better design it without tables, but at this
    > point I'd rather just get it up, especially since it works in all the
    > other browsers. I'm hoping someone may have an idea. It has been
    > particularly hard to work on because I don't have a Mac to work on, and
    > therefore can't really tinker. I have to try changing something and
    > then wait for access to a Mac to test it.
    >
    > Thanks for your time,
    >
    > Ken Walden
    >


    It is not a pretty site in IE5 Mac, true. You need to do
    detective work. Turn off all styles and see what is what. No
    time now, but if the problem is not solved soon I will take a
    closer look. I notice (something topical lately!) you have
    comments in your css like

    <--! particular style changes I added outside of the default
    section-->

    This is not right. Use /* blah blah */

    Put "" around your things in your html like the "750" in your
    "width=750" and put height for images as well as width and stop
    leaving out the "; at the end of things as in your

    H1 { font-size: x-large }
    H2 { font-size: large }
    H3 { font-size: normal }

    And this alone will muck up a lot of css implementation, so fix
    /all this stuff/ you can up first... Get a tute on CSS and
    attend to the simple things of the language at least.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Nov 7, 2005
    #3
  4. Ken Walden

    dorayme Guest

    > From: dorayme <>

    >
    > Put "" around your things in your html like the "750" in your
    > "width=750" and put height for images as well as width and stop
    > leaving out the "; at t


    oops... typo:

    should have been stop leaving out the ";"

    Don't leave out the semi-colon at the ends in the css. You /can/
    leave off the final one in a set of them but don't worry about
    this, just always put them in.

    Since read advice about "not pandering" to the browser
    concerned. Nah! Pander and you will be richly rewarded. It will
    come up at the gates of St Peters and it might well make the
    difference to whether you go up or down. You are probably like
    me, not a perfect being, so err on the side of caution and give
    yourself every chance at this fateful meeting...

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Nov 7, 2005
    #4
  5. Ken Walden

    dorayme Guest

    and do put # in front of colour numbers and ...

    that's it, I am packing up for the day...

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Nov 7, 2005
    #5
  6. Ken Walden

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 6 Nov 2005 21:13:47 -0800, "Ken Walden" <> wrote:

    >now displaying fine on all the browsers I've been able to try,
    >except for IE 5 on Mac. And it's totally dead on there.
    >
    >The URL is http://www.wordsworthcoop.com/new/


    IE5/Mac is monumentally broken. It also has so few users that it's
    really not worth worrying about. However you probably want to fix this,
    so...

    IE5/Mac is probably _most_ broken when it comes to its parser. It has a
    habit of encountering really trivial invalidities (or even valid code it
    simply doesn't like) then abandoning that whole section for rendering.
    Be _very_ careful about issues like bad syntax (your incorrect comment
    marker in the CSS) always quoting attributes and not including optional
    whitespace if you can avoid it. Extra whitespace in the value of a class
    attribute is an infamous IE/Mac killer.
    Andy Dingley, Nov 7, 2005
    #6
  7. Ken Walden

    Ken Walden Guest

    >IE5/Mac is monumentally broken. It also has so few users that it's
    >really not worth worrying about. However you probably want to fix this,
    >so...


    It's true. I found out about it because some of my partners in my
    business actually use it, so I can't quite discount it as being an
    artifact.

    Thank you Andy, dorayme and Brucie for all your advice. I'm going to
    sit down today and fix all those errors and see if that helps. I do
    feel the need to point out in my defense that I have found many guides
    to CSS in order how to learn how to do any of this, and those guides
    are what told me to write comments in those ways. And some of the
    errors you point out are things I copied and pasted directly from guide
    sites. I don't know enough to make this stuff up, lol. It's hard to
    know who to trust on the Web if you don't already know what you're
    talking about.

    Thanks again, I'll let you know if it works.

    Ken Walden
    Ken Walden, Nov 7, 2005
    #7
  8. Ken Walden

    brucie Guest

    In post <news:>,
    Ken Walden said:

    >>IE5/Mac is monumentally broken. It also has so few users that it's
    >>really not worth worrying about. However you probably want to fix this,
    >>so...


    > It's true. I found out about it because some of my partners in my
    > business actually use it, so I can't quite discount it as being an
    > artifact.


    have them killed, much more fun and easier than continuing to support a
    prehistoric browser.

    > I do feel the need to point out in my defense that I have found many
    > guides to CSS in order how to learn how to do any of this, and those
    > guides are what told me to write comments in those ways.


    4.1.9 Comments
    Comments begin with the characters "/*" and end with the characters "*/".
    They may occur anywhere between tokens, and their contents have no
    influence on the rendering. Comments may not be nested.

    CSS also allows the SGML comment delimiters ("<!--" and "-->") in certain
    places, but they do not delimit CSS comments. They are permitted so that
    style rules appearing in an HTML source document (in the STYLE element) may
    be hidden from pre-HTML 3.2 user agents. See the HTML 4.0 specification
    ([HTML40]) for more information.
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/syndata.html#comments

    > It's hard to know who to trust on the Web if you don't already know what
    > you're talking about.


    horses mouth:
    http://w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/cover.html
    http://w3.org/TR/CSS21/cover.html


    --
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    brucie, Nov 7, 2005
    #8
  9. Ken Walden

    Ken Walden Guest

    Oh I remembered another interesting thing to point out. Basically all
    of the pages are broken the same on my site, except for one. If you
    navigate to http://www.wordsworthcoop.com/new/who.htm you will see that
    this one renders the header and the central text correctly (although
    the footer is still messed up).

    I have cleared up all those mistakes in coding you all pointed out. It
    didn't make a difference. I guess I am going to try getting rid of
    whitespace next and see if that makes a difference.

    Thanks,

    Ken Walden
    Ken Walden, Nov 7, 2005
    #9
  10. Ken Walden

    Ken Walden Guest

    Me again.

    All right, I tried fixing all the coding mistakes I know of. I made
    sure the CSS validated at the W3C site. I removed all the extra
    whitespace from my style sheet. I tried removing the link to the style
    sheet from the html. Without the style sheet it renders "correctly". So
    does that tell me that the error is coming from something inside the
    style sheet itself? Or could it still be an application of css in my
    html?

    I guess I will try removing styles one by one. This is a bit cumbersome
    because the only Mac I have access to is at the other end of the
    building, but if it ends this, it will be worth it.

    Ken Walden
    Ken Walden, Nov 7, 2005
    #10
  11. On 7 Nov 2005 14:27:34 -0800, "Ken Walden" <>
    wrote:

    >Me again.


    [snip re: dealing with Mac IE5 CSS bugs]

    <http://www.macedition.com/cb/ie5macbugs/>

    Nick

    --
    Nick Theodorakis

    contact form:
    http://theodorakis.net/contact.html
    Nick Theodorakis, Nov 8, 2005
    #11
  12. Ken Walden

    dorayme Guest

    > From: Andy Dingley <>
    >
    > IE5/Mac is monumentally broken. It also has so few users that it's
    > really not worth worrying about.


    Well, this may be so depending on various assumptions. When
    something looks absolutely terrible in IE5 Mac, it is almost
    always the case (up to recent times at least) that the page has
    dreadful faults; of concept, design, html and css. IE Mac is a
    nice test (increasingly less useful from now on perhaps or
    hopefully) of a site made by not over sophisticated folk who
    are often over-reaching...

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Nov 8, 2005
    #12
  13. Ken Walden

    dorayme Guest

    > From: "Ken Walden" <>
    >
    > Oh I remembered another interesting thing to point out. Basically all
    > of the pages are broken the same on my site, except for one. If you
    > navigate to http://www.wordsworthcoop.com/new/who.htm you will see that
    > this one renders the header and the central text correctly (although
    > the footer is still messed up).
    >
    > I have cleared up all those mistakes in coding you all pointed out. It
    > didn't make a difference. I guess I am going to try getting rid of
    > whitespace next and see if that makes a difference.
    >


    You didn't quite clear them all up (still no height for some of your
    images, quote marks and stuff... I also notice your images on your server
    are not even the widths you specify...); but anyway, you have
    done a lot of them...

    You will get better results in my opinion if you leave out the
    fancy doodle dandy line in the css that goes:

    H1, H2, H3, H4, H5, H6, P, UL, OL, DIR, MENU, DIV, DT, DD,
    ADDRESS, BLOCKQUOTE, PRE, BR, HR, FORM, DL {display: block;}

    It starts to look respectable in Mac IE 5 then...

    I don't quite follow all the specs for widths you give, seems
    very constrained but anyway, I think that line above is the
    trouble on a quick test? This might keep those fellows down the
    corridor happy...

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Nov 8, 2005
    #13
  14. Ken Walden

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:12:59 +1100, dorayme <>
    wrote:

    >When
    >something looks absolutely terrible in IE5 Mac, it is almost
    >always the case (up to recent times at least) that the page has
    >dreadful faults;


    Try the two fragments:

    <div class="foo bar" >

    <div class="foo bar" >

    The first works fine in IE/Mac, the second vanishes. Hardly a "dreadful
    fault" in the coding though.
    Andy Dingley, Nov 8, 2005
    #14
  15. Ken Walden

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Trapped in the departure lounge at alt.html, Andy Dingley got bored and
    wrote:

    > The first works fine in IE/Mac, the second vanishes.


    IE5/Mac is notorious for mucking up when it comes across /optional/
    spaces. Having said that, so few people use IE5/Mac now that I don't
    personally think it's worth worrying about. Just make sure that the
    content is presented in an acceptable way.

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://electricfreedom.org -- Where the Music Progressively Rocks!

    Usenet: The first post is free, but the next will cost you your soul.
    Dylan Parry, Nov 8, 2005
    #15
  16. Ken Walden

    dorayme Guest

    > From: Andy Dingley <>
    >
    > On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:12:59 +1100, dorayme <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> When
    >> something looks absolutely terrible in IE5 Mac, it is almost
    >> always the case (up to recent times at least) that the page has
    >> dreadful faults;

    >
    > Try the two fragments:
    >
    > <div class="foo bar" >
    >
    > <div class="foo bar" >
    >
    > The first works fine in IE/Mac, the second vanishes. Hardly a "dreadful
    > fault" in the coding though.



    Not quite sure the relevance of your remark to what I said? But
    I found it interesting anyway, tested it and it is not true. If
    I have your meaning right? Works fine in my IE Mac...


    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Nov 9, 2005
    #16
  17. Ken Walden

    dorayme Guest

    > From: Dylan Parry <>

    > so few people use IE5/Mac now that I don't
    > personally think it's worth worrying about.



    This gets repeated over and over. Who knows the absolute
    numbers? The point you miss is that some of the finest
    characters in this world still use IE Mac and how wise or just
    is it to ignore them?

    --
    dorayme

    relax everyone, people should make sure that their webpages are
    good before complaining about IE Mac, the complaints should come
    second not first...
    dorayme, Nov 9, 2005
    #17
  18. Ken Walden

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Trapped in the departure lounge at alt.html, dorayme got bored and
    wrote:

    > The point you miss is that some of the finest characters in this world
    > still use IE Mac and how wise or just is it to ignore them?


    I didn't say you could ignore them outright, but "make sure that the
    content is presented in an acceptable way" in the same way as you
    wouldn't go out of your way to make sure a site looks pixel-perfect in
    NS4.

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references

    Usenet: The first post is free, but the next will cost you your soul.
    Dylan Parry, Nov 9, 2005
    #18
  19. In article <v80qs0zi6coc$>,
    brucie <> wrote:

    > In post <news:>,
    > Ken Walden said:
    >
    > > If you have access to IE 5 on a Mac, and can look at it, and have any
    > > guess as to why it looks like this,

    >
    > i wouldn't waste my time pandering to such a prehistoric browser.


    Unfortunately, that's the latest and probably last version of IE
    available for the Mac. If you're stuck having to access an IE-biased
    site, it's about the only choice you have. Happily, Mac IE was somewhat
    more advanced than its Windows equivalent.

    Not long ago, a feature on our site broke for Mac IE5, and promptly
    experienced a 3% decline in usage. Ignoring it is not completely risk
    free.

    --
    Joel.
    Joel Shepherd, Nov 9, 2005
    #19
  20. Ken Walden

    kchayka Guest

    Ken Walden wrote:
    >
    > IE 5 on Mac. And it's totally dead on there.
    >
    > The URL is http://www.wordsworthcoop.com/new/


    In your stylesheet:

    H1, H2, H3, H4, H5, H6, P, UL, OL, DIR, MENU, DIV, DT, DD, ADDRESS,
    BLOCKQUOTE, PRE, BR, HR, FORM, DL {display: block;}

    B, STRONG, I, EM, CITE, VAR, TT, CODE, KBD, SAMP, IMG, SPAN {display:
    inline;}

    LI {display: list-item;}

    Why? It's not only superfluous for a conforming browser, but potentially
    dangerous for a quirky one. MacIE surely falls in the latter group.
    Don't tempt it.

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
    kchayka, Nov 9, 2005
    #20
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