MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout"

Discussion in 'ASP .Net Web Controls' started by Kelly, Nov 12, 2004.

  1. Kelly

    Kelly Guest

    Hi all -

    I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there for
    my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
    has worked.

    Know what I mean?

    The body tag still says
    <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">

    so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still showing
    up in my HTML.

    Any ideas?

    TIA!
    -Kelly
    Kelly, Nov 12, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    Items that you have already placed on the form will not be affected by the
    change of this setting. You must change their positions for them to conform
    to the new setting. Any new controls you add will conform to the new
    setting.

    "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    news:et%...
    > Hi all -
    >
    > I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    > project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    > project
    > anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    > flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
    > for
    > my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
    > has worked.
    >
    > Know what I mean?
    >
    > The body tag still says
    > <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >
    > so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still showing
    > up in my HTML.
    >
    > Any ideas?
    >
    > TIA!
    > -Kelly
    >
    >
    Scott M., Nov 12, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Kelly

    Kelly Guest

    Thanks, Scott!

    PS. I changed my code to what you suggested (re: datagrids) yesterday and it
    works great!

    -Kelly

    "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Items that you have already placed on the form will not be affected by the
    > change of this setting. You must change their positions for them to

    conform
    > to the new setting. Any new controls you add will conform to the new
    > setting.
    >
    > "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    > news:et%...
    > > Hi all -
    > >
    > > I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    > > project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    > > project
    > > anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    > > flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
    > > for
    > > my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of

    this
    > > has worked.
    > >
    > > Know what I mean?
    > >
    > > The body tag still says
    > > <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    > >
    > > so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still

    showing
    > > up in my HTML.
    > >
    > > Any ideas?
    > >
    > > TIA!
    > > -Kelly
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    Kelly, Nov 12, 2004
    #3
  4. >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    > anyway)

    Rubbish! Who told you so?
    (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)

    Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
    flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
    the way.

    --
    Regards,
    Alvin Bruney
    [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    news:et%...
    > Hi all -
    >
    > I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    > project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    > project
    > anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    > flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
    > for
    > my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
    > has worked.
    >
    > Know what I mean?
    >
    > The body tag still says
    > <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >
    > so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still showing
    > up in my HTML.
    >
    > Any ideas?
    >
    > TIA!
    > -Kelly
    >
    >
    Alvin Bruney [MVP], Nov 12, 2004
    #4
  5. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    We are talking about FlowLayout vs. GridLayout, not flowmode vs. designmode
    (2 different sets of things).

    GridLayout (IMO) is definitely NOT the way to build up a UI. GridLayout
    simply uses CSS Level 2 to absolutely position elements on the page. Now
    there are exceptions to every rule, but I have never advocated building the
    whole UI with absolutely positioned elements since when developing for the
    Internet, we don't know the resolution and monitor sizes of the client. Not
    to mention that absolute positioning is more difficult to design the layout
    of the page with since it requires knowing the exact pixel sizes of
    everything on the page.

    FlowLayout, by contrast allows us to simply drop a table of a certain width
    on that page and work within that width boundary. Now, getting back to the
    exception for every rule....If I have something I need to absolutely
    position, I can still do it for that one control without switching the
    entire page into GridLayout.



    "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    >> anyway)

    > Rubbish! Who told you so?
    > (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
    >
    > Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
    > flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
    > the way.
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    > Alvin Bruney
    > [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    > Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    > "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    > news:et%...
    >> Hi all -
    >>
    >> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    >> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    >> project
    >> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    >> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
    >> for
    >> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
    >> has worked.
    >>
    >> Know what I mean?
    >>
    >> The body tag still says
    >> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >>
    >> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
    >> showing
    >> up in my HTML.
    >>
    >> Any ideas?
    >>
    >> TIA!
    >> -Kelly
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #5
  6. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
    developer with many many years of practical
    experience. :)



    "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    >> anyway)

    > Rubbish! Who told you so?
    > (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
    >
    > Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
    > flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
    > the way.
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    > Alvin Bruney
    > [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    > Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    > "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    > news:et%...
    >> Hi all -
    >>
    >> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    >> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    >> project
    >> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    >> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
    >> for
    >> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of this
    >> has worked.
    >>
    >> Know what I mean?
    >>
    >> The body tag still says
    >> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >>
    >> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
    >> showing
    >> up in my HTML.
    >>
    >> Any ideas?
    >>
    >> TIA!
    >> -Kelly
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #6
  7. I concur 100%. GridLayout is deceptively evil, and I wish Microsoft
    hadn't made it the default in Visual Studio .NET 2002/2003. I teach
    about six ASP.NET courses during the course of the year, and the number
    one thing that developers coming from a WinForms background do is become
    wed to GridLayout.

    By the time they come to my class, some of the #1 questions are:

    * Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
    my DataGrid when it has too many items?
    * My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
    how do I fix this?
    * I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
    junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?

    etc., etc.

    Now, I believe once we have Longhorn with a significant marketshare, and
    the Web moves from the current HTML markup to a richer, UI-focused
    markup, then the GridLayout concept will work great, and be the de facto
    way to create Web pages. But with the current technologies, GridLayout
    causes more pain among new developers than not.

    --

    Scott Mitchell

    http://www.4GuysFromRolla.com

    * When you think ASP.NET, think 4GuysFromRolla.com!
    Scott Mitchell [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #7
  8. > Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
    > developer with many many years of practical
    > experience. :)

    I'm not, i will graduate this year and start looking for work in the real
    world for the first time.

    I was paying enough attention to catch your implication that experienced
    developers use flow!

    --
    Regards,
    Alvin Bruney
    [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    news:%23n3%23%...
    > Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
    > developer with many many years of practical
    > experience. :)
    >
    >
    >
    > "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    >>> anyway)

    >> Rubbish! Who told you so?
    >> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
    >>
    >> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
    >> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
    >> the way.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >> Alvin Bruney
    >> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    >> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    >> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    >> news:et%...
    >>> Hi all -
    >>>
    >>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    >>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    >>> project
    >>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    >>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
    >>> for
    >>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of
    >>> this
    >>> has worked.
    >>>
    >>> Know what I mean?
    >>>
    >>> The body tag still says
    >>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >>>
    >>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
    >>> showing
    >>> up in my HTML.
    >>>
    >>> Any ideas?
    >>>
    >>> TIA!
    >>> -Kelly
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Alvin Bruney [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #8
  9. I've spent countless hours arguing the EVILS of flow so i won't go over it
    here - feel free to google for it.
    At the end of the day, nobody has changed sides.And it is a bitter debate.
    The default for whidbey is flow and i will be fighting tooth and nail to get
    it back to grid - the way it should be.

    >GridLayout is deceptively evil,

    That's what i mean by disparaging remarks. It's an option in the IDE, learn
    to use it properly.
    If it didn't have a bona fide use, it would not be included - it wouldn't
    even be the default in two released versions.
    That by itself should be meaningful in and of itself.


    * Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
    my DataGrid when it has too many items?
    * My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
    how do I fix this?
    * I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
    junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?

    All these concerns have extremely easy fixes that I trust you are imparting
    as a responsible and objective teacher.
    But you did hit the nail on the head. Windows programmers stick to grid,
    HTML and ASP programmers stick to flow. And there are very little
    backsliders.

    My take is that the web has evolved from simple web submission forms to
    complex applications that run in a browser - functionally equivalent to a
    windows application in a browser.
    For that type of programming, gridlayout is a must. For all other options,
    use gridlayout (that's not a typo either).

    --
    Regards,
    Alvin Bruney
    [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    news:%23n3%23%...
    > Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
    > developer with many many years of practical
    > experience. :)
    >
    >
    >
    > "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    >>> anyway)

    >> Rubbish! Who told you so?
    >> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
    >>
    >> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
    >> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them by
    >> the way.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >> Alvin Bruney
    >> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    >> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    >> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    >> news:et%...
    >>> Hi all -
    >>>
    >>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    >>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    >>> project
    >>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    >>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still there
    >>> for
    >>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of
    >>> this
    >>> has worked.
    >>>
    >>> Know what I mean?
    >>>
    >>> The body tag still says
    >>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >>>
    >>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
    >>> showing
    >>> up in my HTML.
    >>>
    >>> Any ideas?
    >>>
    >>> TIA!
    >>> -Kelly
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Alvin Bruney [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #9
  10. >>GridLayout is deceptively evil,
    >
    > That's what i mean by disparaging remarks. It's an option in the IDE, learn
    > to use it properly.


    Just because something exists as an option, doesn't mean it isn't a
    feature that will cause more harm than good.

    > If it didn't have a bona fide use, it would not be included - it wouldn't
    > even be the default in two released versions.
    > That by itself should be meaningful in and of itself.


    Agreed, but there are things that cause more harm than good, regardless
    of if they are options. For example, Option Explicit does not need to
    be included in a VBScript/old school VB program, but should be, always,
    and shouldn't have to be added to be included, agreed?

    > * Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
    > my DataGrid when it has too many items?
    > * My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
    > how do I fix this?
    > * I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
    > junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?
    >
    > All these concerns have extremely easy fixes that I trust you are imparting
    > as a responsible and objective teacher.


    Naturally. I show them the workaround, and then encourage them to
    explore FlowLayout in more depth. With my students, I find that it's
    ignorance that makes them hesitant to switch. They come from a non-Web
    background, so they are not familiar with using <DIV>s, <table>s, or
    other HTML elements to position content. This is all fine and good, but
    the point is my experience of people who are proponents of Grid over
    Flow are those who don't have a firm grasp on laying out a page without
    absolute positioning. I believe in an earlier comment in this thread
    you mentioned you had some good reasons for using Grid over Flow, I'd be
    interested in hearing them.

    > My take is that the web has evolved from simple web submission forms to
    > complex applications that run in a browser - functionally equivalent to a
    > windows application in a browser.


    We're getting there, yes, but HTML is not going to be the markup to take
    us there, XAML will. So I agree that GridLayout will be very important
    in the future, but right now I find it to be substandard.

    > For that type of programming, gridlayout is a must. For all other options,
    > use gridlayout (that's not a typo either).


    I take it you are developing your Web apps on an intranet, where the
    browser is guaranteed? Do you still promote GridLayout when you know
    you'll have visitors who, for example, might be coming from 2nd world
    nations or universtities, where they might not be using the latest and
    greatest browsers?


    --

    Scott Mitchell

    http://www.4GuysFromRolla.com

    * When you think ASP.NET, think 4GuysFromRolla.com!
    Scott Mitchell [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #10
  11. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    >>GridLayout is deceptively evil,
    > That's what i mean by disparaging remarks. It's an option in the IDE,
    > learn to use it properly.


    Actually, you can only change it on a project by project basis.

    > If it didn't have a bona fide use, it would not be included - it wouldn't
    > even be the default in two released versions.
    > That by itself should be meaningful in and of itself.


    You mean in the same way that the validation controls only work in IE
    because the use the MS DHTML model, rather than the W3C DOM?

    >
    > * Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
    > my DataGrid when it has too many items?
    > * My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
    > how do I fix this?
    > * I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
    > junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?
    >
    > All these concerns have extremely easy fixes that I trust you are
    > imparting as a responsible and objective teacher.


    Yes, the fix is to use FlowLayout.

    > But you did hit the nail on the head. Windows programmers stick to grid,
    > HTML and ASP programmers stick to flow. And there are very little
    > backsliders.


    Actually, you couldn't be more wrong on this one. Most VS.NET newbies think
    that Grid vs. Flow layout is a .NET thing. Experience web developers know
    that is is an HTML vs. CSS Level 2 thing. Most of the experienced web
    developers I know, know to only use absolute positioning for an element here
    and an element there, not the whole UI.

    >
    > My take is that the web has evolved from simple web submission forms to
    > complex applications that run in a browser - functionally equivalent to a
    > windows application in a browser.
    > For that type of programming, gridlayout is a must. For all other options,
    > use gridlayout (that's not a typo either).


    Your assesment makes no sense! The web *was* where complex applications ran
    in a browser and it still is. Form submissions are not relevant to this
    discussion.

    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    > Alvin Bruney
    > [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    > Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    > "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    > news:%23n3%23%...
    >> Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
    >> developer with many many years of practical
    >> experience. :)
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    >> news:%...
    >>> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    >>>> anyway)
    >>> Rubbish! Who told you so?
    >>> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
    >>>
    >>> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
    >>> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them
    >>> by the way.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Regards,
    >>> Alvin Bruney
    >>> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    >>> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    >>> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:et%...
    >>>> Hi all -
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for my
    >>>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    >>>> project
    >>>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    >>>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still
    >>>> there for
    >>>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of
    >>>> this
    >>>> has worked.
    >>>>
    >>>> Know what I mean?
    >>>>
    >>>> The body tag still says
    >>>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >>>>
    >>>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
    >>>> showing
    >>>> up in my HTML.
    >>>>
    >>>> Any ideas?
    >>>>
    >>>> TIA!
    >>>> -Kelly
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #11
  12. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    >This is all fine and good, but the point is my experience of people who are
    >proponents of Grid over Flow are those who don't have a firm grasp on
    >laying out a page without absolute positioning.


    You hit the nail on the head with this statement!! I own and operate an IT
    training company myself and have been teaching web development (as well as
    doing commercial web development) for over 10 years and completely agree
    that if you know and understand good page layout and page design (as well as
    understand the pitfalls of CSS Level 2), you would not use it for the
    complete page UI. Now, don't misunderstand me here, absolute positioning
    has its place, but that place isn't building the total UI using it.
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #12
  13. > I take it you are developing your Web apps on an intranet, where the
    > browser is guaranteed?


    Yes, i do develop on intranets where the browser is guaranteed IE. But
    that's because the application
    functionality that our customers require can only be found in IE browsers.

    >Do you still promote GridLayout when you know you'll have visitors who, for
    >example, might be coming from 2nd world nations or universtities,


    Yes. Because i know how to fix the cross browser formatting issues so i am
    not boxed in to using flowlayout.
    I am free to use whatever I want. At that moment, it is gridlayout.

    I am not talking off the top of my head. I am currently building an internet
    commerce site open to all browsers and I am running into brick walls
    with the front-end guy who is an HTML tables and flowmode oldschool guy
    exhibiting what i term as grid prejudice.
    I've downloaded 4 different browsers and set my default browser to firefox
    to conclusively prove to this guy that there are no cross compatibility
    issues,
    still he set in his ways. But i convinced his boss who allowed me to go
    ahead with my approach.
    The days of building a page with a whole bunch of HTML tables
    flowing all over the place is no longer necessary for cross browser
    compatibility.

    >where they might not be using the latest and greatest browsers?

    This is my position. If you are a customer who isn't running an up-level
    browser, I am not interested in your business.

    I'll concede that the only thing i've found that flow is good for is screen
    resolution issues. Now, the applications built with gridlayout mode
    we will be problematic for the visually impaired since their resolutions
    will cause a HUGE mess on screen. Also, users who are prone to
    adjust their browser text size to the extreme settings may be mildly
    affected by gridlayout.

    >For example, Option Explicit does not need to be included in a VBScript/old
    >school VB program, but should be, always, and shouldn't have to be added to
    >be included, agreed?

    Agreed.


    > you mentioned you had some good reasons for using Grid over Flow, I'd be
    > interested in hearing them.

    My page is lighter, so it loads faster. Gridlayout co-ordinate calculations
    is based on integer math. This is faster than loading
    extra tables, divs, and other html elements whose only purpose is screen
    layering. We do still have people using dial-up and our
    applications should cater to them. I know you have seen those pages with
    tables inside of tables inside of divs inside of tables...
    Have you stopped to consider how heavy that page is to load?

    --
    Regards,
    Alvin Bruney
    [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    "Scott Mitchell [MVP]" <> wrote in message
    news:aQeld.41188$...
    >>>GridLayout is deceptively evil,

    >>
    >> That's what i mean by disparaging remarks. It's an option in the IDE,
    >> learn to use it properly.

    >
    > Just because something exists as an option, doesn't mean it isn't a
    > feature that will cause more harm than good.
    >
    >> If it didn't have a bona fide use, it would not be included - it wouldn't
    >> even be the default in two released versions.
    >> That by itself should be meaningful in and of itself.

    >
    > Agreed, but there are things that cause more harm than good, regardless of
    > if they are options. For example, Option Explicit does not need to be
    > included in a VBScript/old school VB program, but should be, always, and
    > shouldn't have to be added to be included, agreed?
    >
    >> * Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
    >> my DataGrid when it has too many items?
    >> * My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
    >> how do I fix this?
    >> * I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
    >> junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?
    >>
    >> All these concerns have extremely easy fixes that I trust you are
    >> imparting as a responsible and objective teacher.

    >
    > Naturally. I show them the workaround, and then encourage them to explore
    > FlowLayout in more depth. With my students, I find that it's ignorance
    > that makes them hesitant to switch. They come from a non-Web background,
    > so they are not familiar with using <DIV>s, <table>s, or other HTML
    > elements to position content. This is all fine and good, but the point is
    > my experience of people who are proponents of Grid over Flow are those who
    > don't have a firm grasp on laying out a page without absolute positioning.
    > I believe in an earlier comment in this thread you mentioned you had some
    > good reasons for using Grid over Flow, I'd be interested in hearing them.
    >
    >> My take is that the web has evolved from simple web submission forms to
    >> complex applications that run in a browser - functionally equivalent to a
    >> windows application in a browser.

    >
    > We're getting there, yes, but HTML is not going to be the markup to take
    > us there, XAML will. So I agree that GridLayout will be very important in
    > the future, but right now I find it to be substandard.
    >
    >> For that type of programming, gridlayout is a must. For all other
    >> options, use gridlayout (that's not a typo either).

    >
    > I take it you are developing your Web apps on an intranet, where the
    > browser is guaranteed? Do you still promote GridLayout when you know
    > you'll have visitors who, for example, might be coming from 2nd world
    > nations or universtities, where they might not be using the latest and
    > greatest browsers?
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > Scott Mitchell
    >
    > http://www.4GuysFromRolla.com
    >
    > * When you think ASP.NET, think 4GuysFromRolla.com!
    Alvin Bruney [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #13
  14. >I own and operate an IT training company myself and have been teaching web
    >development (as well as doing commercial web development) for over 10 years

    I did not call your experience into question.

    >Now, don't misunderstand me here, absolute positioning has its place, but
    >that place isn't building the total UI using it.


    On the contrary, I prefer not to box myself in to using one approach when
    other approaches
    offer the same, or even added benefits.

    --
    Regards,
    Alvin Bruney
    [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >This is all fine and good, but the point is my experience of people who
    > >are proponents of Grid over Flow are those who don't have a firm grasp on
    > >laying out a page without absolute positioning.

    >
    > You hit the nail on the head with this statement!! I own and operate an
    > IT training company myself and have been teaching web development (as well
    > as doing commercial web development) for over 10 years and completely
    > agree that if you know and understand good page layout and page design (as
    > well as understand the pitfalls of CSS Level 2), you would not use it for
    > the complete page UI. Now, don't misunderstand me here, absolute
    > positioning has its place, but that place isn't building the total UI
    > using it.
    >
    Alvin Bruney [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #14
  15. >You mean in the same way that the validation controls only work in IE
    >because the use the MS DHTML model, rather than the W3C DOM?

    Well, now that is a Microsoft implementation issue right?

    > Yes, the fix is to use FlowLayout.

    That is only one solution. The other solution is to adjust the web config
    file so it renders the correct HTML to all browsers.
    You do realize that this cross browser issue was exacerbated by Microsoft's
    poor implementation
    of the HTML rendering process - a situation that is remedied in whidbey -
    right?

    > Most of the experienced web developers I know, know to only use absolute
    > positioning for an element here and an element there, not the whole UI.

    Yes, and most windows programmers who have moved to the web know it the
    other way around.
    You aren't going to discredit them by imposing your own agenda right? Like
    it or not, windows programmers
    are moving to the web in droves - that is the impetus behind .NET.
    My position is that they are free to use whatever tools they think can get
    the job done on
    budget and on schedule and within the bounds of customer satisfaction.
    If that means using flowlayout, then by all means, flow. If it means using
    gridlayout, then grid.

    Notice that i do not force my gridlayout position compared to your forcing
    flowlayout, i simply leave it as an option because impositions
    always tend to stifle creativity and slow forward movement.


    --
    Regards,
    Alvin Bruney
    [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>>GridLayout is deceptively evil,

    >> That's what i mean by disparaging remarks. It's an option in the IDE,
    >> learn to use it properly.

    >
    > Actually, you can only change it on a project by project basis.
    >
    >> If it didn't have a bona fide use, it would not be included - it wouldn't
    >> even be the default in two released versions.
    >> That by itself should be meaningful in and of itself.

    >
    > You mean in the same way that the validation controls only work in IE
    > because the use the MS DHTML model, rather than the W3C DOM?
    >
    >>
    >> * Why does the control I put beneath my DataGrid become covered up by
    >> my DataGrid when it has too many items?
    >> * My users are complaining because they have to horizontally scroll,
    >> how do I fix this?
    >> * I have a user with an older browser version, and the page looks like
    >> junk. What's wrong with ASP.NET, why won't it work for older browsers?
    >>
    >> All these concerns have extremely easy fixes that I trust you are
    >> imparting as a responsible and objective teacher.

    >
    > Yes, the fix is to use FlowLayout.
    >
    >> But you did hit the nail on the head. Windows programmers stick to grid,
    >> HTML and ASP programmers stick to flow. And there are very little
    >> backsliders.

    >
    > Actually, you couldn't be more wrong on this one. Most VS.NET newbies
    > think that Grid vs. Flow layout is a .NET thing. Experience web
    > developers know that is is an HTML vs. CSS Level 2 thing. Most of the
    > experienced web developers I know, know to only use absolute positioning
    > for an element here and an element there, not the whole UI.
    >
    >>
    >> My take is that the web has evolved from simple web submission forms to
    >> complex applications that run in a browser - functionally equivalent to a
    >> windows application in a browser.
    >> For that type of programming, gridlayout is a must. For all other
    >> options, use gridlayout (that's not a typo either).

    >
    > Your assesment makes no sense! The web *was* where complex applications
    > ran in a browser and it still is. Form submissions are not relevant to
    > this discussion.
    >
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >> Alvin Bruney
    >> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    >> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    >> "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    >> news:%23n3%23%...
    >>> Oh, and by the way, I would consider myself an extremely well informed
    >>> developer with many many years of practical
    >>> experience. :)
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    >>> news:%...
    >>>> >but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my project
    >>>>> anyway)
    >>>> Rubbish! Who told you so?
    >>>> (that's actually what i was thinking, to put it politely)
    >>>>
    >>>> Many uninformed developers rooted in ASP and HTML programming champion
    >>>> flowmode while disparaging designmode. I'm sure you aren't one of them
    >>>> by the way.
    >>>>
    >>>> --
    >>>> Regards,
    >>>> Alvin Bruney
    >>>> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    >>>> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    >>>> "Kelly" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:et%...
    >>>>> Hi all -
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I'm just wondering about something. I have been using gridlayout for
    >>>>> my
    >>>>> project, but was recently told why flowlayout would be best (for my
    >>>>> project
    >>>>> anyway). So, I went into the HTML and changed my MS_POSITIONING to
    >>>>> flowlayout, but the auto sizes, locations, and positions are still
    >>>>> there for
    >>>>> my controls. I've saved it, closed and re-opened it, etc and none of
    >>>>> this
    >>>>> has worked.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Know what I mean?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The body tag still says
    >>>>> <body bgColor="powderblue" MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout">
    >>>>>
    >>>>> so I'm not sure why the sizes, positions, locations, etc are still
    >>>>> showing
    >>>>> up in my HTML.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Any ideas?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> TIA!
    >>>>> -Kelly
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Alvin Bruney [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #15
  16. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    > I did not call your experience into question.

    I never said you did.

    >>Now, don't misunderstand me here, absolute positioning has its place, but
    >>that place isn't building the total UI using it.

    >
    > On the contrary, I prefer not to box myself in to using one approach when
    > other approaches
    > offer the same, or even added benefits.


    Then you should consider the approach I'm describing... FlowLayout for most
    of the page, Absolute Positioning when needed. Using GridLayout for
    everything actually limits the end result possibilities.
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #16
  17. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest


    >>I'll concede that the only thing i've found that flow is good for is
    >>screen
    >>resolution issues. Now, the applications built with gridlayout mode
    >>we will be problematic for the visually impaired since their resolutions
    >>will cause a HUGE mess on screen. Also, users who are prone to
    >>adjust their browser text size to the extreme settings may be mildly
    >>affected by gridlayout.


    This has been my point all along and is why FlowLayout is the better choice.
    The only situation where GridLayout wouldn't cause the issues above is where
    the monitor size, screen resolution and browser options are locked down.
    That is pretty rare. Even in corporate intranets, the monitor size and
    screen resolutions vary.
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #17
  18. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    news:O%...
    > >You mean in the same way that the validation controls only work in IE
    > >because the use the MS DHTML model, rather than the W3C DOM?


    > Well, now that is a Microsoft implementation issue right?


    You said if the feature was there, it must have value. Validation controls
    are there, but they have no client-side value if you aren't using MS IE.
    So, just because a feature is there, doesn't make it the best choice to use.

    >> Yes, the fix is to use FlowLayout.

    > That is only one solution. The other solution is to adjust the web config
    > file so it renders the correct HTML to all browsers.
    > You do realize that this cross browser issue was exacerbated by
    > Microsoft's poor implementation
    > of the HTML rendering process - a situation that is remedied in whidbey -
    > right?


    It's not a cross-browser issue at all. It's a screen resolution and browser
    text size setting issue. You do realize that right (rhetorical question
    since you've agreed to this is a previous post in this thread)?


    >> Most of the experienced web developers I know, know to only use absolute
    >> positioning for an element here and an element there, not the whole UI.

    > Yes, and most windows programmers who have moved to the web know it the
    > other way around.


    > You aren't going to discredit them by imposing your own agenda right? Like
    > it or not, windows programmers are moving to the web in droves - that is
    > the impetus behind .NET.


    These were not my comments in the first place so I have nothing to add here.
    You have confused the posts of Scott Mitchell with me: Scott M. (not the
    same Scott).

    > My position is that they are free to use whatever tools they think can get
    > the job done on
    > budget and on schedule and within the bounds of customer satisfaction.
    > If that means using flowlayout, then by all means, flow. If it means using
    > gridlayout, then grid.
    >
    > Notice that i do not force my gridlayout position compared to your forcing
    > flowlayout, i simply leave it as an option because impositions
    > always tend to stifle creativity and slow forward movement.


    Well, you've been pretty adamant that GridLayout is the way to go. On the
    other hand, I have said that there is a place for absolute positioning. My
    comments have nothing to do with .NET (since this isn't a .NET issue) and
    have everything to do with good UI design. Because monitor size, resolution
    size and text size can't be known for the client, GridLayout is very
    dangerous to use. That's not an opinion, it is a fact (and you've agreed in
    an earlier post in this thread). Given that information, how can you
    seriously say that building the whole UI in GridLayout is the better
    approach for most UI development?!
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #18
  19. > an earlier post in this thread). Given that information, how can you
    > seriously say that building the whole UI in GridLayout is the better
    > approach for most UI development?!


    Never did say that. I said it was an option. You argue it should be used
    here and there.
    But your argument is not convincing. The large majority of desktops run a
    standard size screen resolution with just
    a few clients running outside that range. So using that as an argument to
    justify flowlayout doesn't cut it.
    The vast majority of desktops use 800x600 thru 1280x1024. Gridlayout works
    just fine in these modes.
    So build your applications with that setting in mind and test for that
    resolution range.
    That is why internet sites sometimes have a recommended resolution setting.

    I have used GridLayout for ALL my UI development in the few days that I have
    been developing web applications.
    I have not had any problems with different browsers or resolution settings
    that I could not quickly adjust in code.
    I build web applications that compete for and replace windows desktop
    applications.
    These customers require their interface to look and behave exactly like a
    windows application in form
    and function. If they shrink the browser size for instance, they don't want
    to see a server control flow to the next line.
    It doesn't do that in windows desktop and that is exactly their expectation.
    Until these
    customer requirements change, that is what i will be giving the customer.
    It's their money and their product.
    You have to take all that into consideration before you go blindly saying
    that FlowLayout is the best for most
    UI development because different problem domains require different options.



    --
    Regards,
    Alvin Bruney
    [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
    Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27cok
    "Scott M." <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    >
    > "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    > news:O%...
    >> >You mean in the same way that the validation controls only work in IE
    >> >because the use the MS DHTML model, rather than the W3C DOM?

    >
    >> Well, now that is a Microsoft implementation issue right?

    >
    > You said if the feature was there, it must have value. Validation
    > controls are there, but they have no client-side value if you aren't using
    > MS IE. So, just because a feature is there, doesn't make it the best
    > choice to use.
    >
    >>> Yes, the fix is to use FlowLayout.

    >> That is only one solution. The other solution is to adjust the web config
    >> file so it renders the correct HTML to all browsers.
    >> You do realize that this cross browser issue was exacerbated by
    >> Microsoft's poor implementation
    >> of the HTML rendering process - a situation that is remedied in whidbey -
    >> right?

    >
    > It's not a cross-browser issue at all. It's a screen resolution and
    > browser text size setting issue. You do realize that right (rhetorical
    > question since you've agreed to this is a previous post in this thread)?
    >
    >
    >>> Most of the experienced web developers I know, know to only use absolute
    >>> positioning for an element here and an element there, not the whole UI.

    >> Yes, and most windows programmers who have moved to the web know it the
    >> other way around.

    >
    >> You aren't going to discredit them by imposing your own agenda right?
    >> Like it or not, windows programmers are moving to the web in droves -
    >> that is the impetus behind .NET.

    >
    > These were not my comments in the first place so I have nothing to add
    > here. You have confused the posts of Scott Mitchell with me: Scott M. (not
    > the same Scott).
    >
    >> My position is that they are free to use whatever tools they think can
    >> get the job done on
    >> budget and on schedule and within the bounds of customer satisfaction.
    >> If that means using flowlayout, then by all means, flow. If it means
    >> using gridlayout, then grid.
    >>
    >> Notice that i do not force my gridlayout position compared to your
    >> forcing flowlayout, i simply leave it as an option because impositions
    >> always tend to stifle creativity and slow forward movement.

    >
    > Well, you've been pretty adamant that GridLayout is the way to go. On the
    > other hand, I have said that there is a place for absolute positioning.
    > My comments have nothing to do with .NET (since this isn't a .NET issue)
    > and have everything to do with good UI design. Because monitor size,
    > resolution size and text size can't be known for the client, GridLayout is
    > very dangerous to use. That's not an opinion, it is a fact (and you've
    > agreed in an earlier post in this thread). Given that information, how
    > can you seriously say that building the whole UI in GridLayout is the
    > better approach for most UI development?!
    >
    Alvin Bruney [MVP], Nov 13, 2004
    #19
  20. Kelly

    Scott M. Guest

    "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
    news:...
    >> an earlier post in this thread). Given that information, how can you
    >> seriously say that building the whole UI in GridLayout is the better
    >> approach for most UI development?!

    >
    > Never did say that. I said it was an option. You argue it should be used
    > here and there.


    Actually, you DID say that (you said the following):

    "I'll concede that the only thing i've found that flow is good for is screen
    resolution issues. Now, the applications built with gridlayout mode
    we will be problematic for the visually impaired since their resolutions
    will cause a HUGE mess on screen. Also, users who are prone to
    adjust their browser text size to the extreme settings may be mildly
    affected by gridlayout."

    ....And guess what? These issues (resolution & text size) are applicable to
    absolutely EVERY web application built. They are not exceptions to the
    rule, they are the rule.

    > But your argument is not convincing. The large majority of desktops run a
    > standard size screen resolution with just
    > a few clients running outside that range. So using that as an argument to
    > justify flowlayout doesn't cut it.


    Wow are you mis-informed! LOL

    > The vast majority of desktops use 800x600 thru 1280x1024. Gridlayout works
    > just fine in these modes.
    > So build your applications with that setting in mind and test for that
    > resolution range.


    800x600 thru 1280x1024 is a range. What you build (using GridLayout) for
    one resolution will look very different in another. You don't build for a
    range, you build for a specific resolution. That is how you approximate a
    client application. Also, you can't really say that GridLayout works in one
    mode or another...GridLayout works in ANY mode, the problem is when you are
    in a different mode than the one that the app was designed for (which is the
    whole point).

    > That is why internet sites sometimes have a recommended resolution
    > setting.


    The popularity of that idea stopped about 5 years ago. Very few sites today
    require a user to change their resolution to meet the UI. Again, this is
    the whole point. As UI's have become more complex and technology has given
    us more UI choices, we no longer need to have the user meet us, we can meet
    the user.

    > I have used GridLayout for ALL my UI development in the few days that I
    > have been developing web applications.


    What?!! You've only been doing web application work for a few days?!!!
    OMG!!! Why are we even having this conversation then? You are putting up
    positions that have been tried and tested for many years (by the web
    community and myself as well) and basically telling us all that in the "few
    days" that you have been doing web development you've somehow figured out
    that we're wrong!?

    > I have not had any problems with different browsers or resolution settings
    > that I could not quickly adjust in code.


    > I build web applications that compete for and replace windows desktop
    > applications.
    > These customers require their interface to look and behave exactly like a
    > windows application in form


    This has nothing to do with our conversation.

    > and function. If they shrink the browser size for instance, they don't
    > want to see a server control flow to the next line.


    Who says that this will happen using FlowLayout mode?! A control wrapping
    to the next line down is not a Grid vs. Flow issue at all. It's a matter of
    knowing how to code HTML properly.

    > It doesn't do that in windows desktop and that is exactly their
    > expectation.


    Again, this is irrelevant since it doesn't happen in FlowLayout mode either.

    > Until these
    > customer requirements change, that is what i will be giving the customer.
    > It's their money and their product.


    And the sure do want to make sure that EVERYONE who uses their application
    will experience the EXACT same UI. The GridLayout solution won't do that, a
    properly designed FlowLayout will.

    > You have to take all that into consideration before you go blindly saying
    > that FlowLayout is the best for most
    > UI development because different problem domains require different
    > options.


    Alvin, it is clear to me that you have very limited knowledge of HTML and
    very limited experience in correctly testing the UI layer of a web
    application. That's a dangerous place to be in if you want to defend a
    position. If you had that experience it would be clear as day to you that
    everything you have been saying is hogwash.

    You keep bringing up your customer's wants and needs and how I am "blindly"
    saying that FlowLayout is the way to go. The truth is that GridLayout
    causes problems that must be overcome and FlowLayout prevents those problems
    in the first place. So, they both can be used to accomplish the goal, BUT
    FlowLayout will get you there faster and with less problems along the way.
    I've also said that absolute positioning of particular controls here and
    there (CSS Level 2), not to be confused with GridLayout mode (where ALL page
    content is absolutely positioned using CSS Level 2) can be useful (when used
    properly).

    Of course you are entitled to your opinion and if you can get the job done
    with GridLayout then "more power to you", but you may want to listen to the
    advice of those who have been doing this for a decade or so and can clearly
    look at both sides of this coin. You may even find that by taking some
    advice, your job gets easier and your customers are happier.
    Scott M., Nov 13, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Dot net work
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    492
    Jeffrey Palermo [MCP]
    Nov 29, 2004
  2. Just D.
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    1,858
    Just D.
    Jan 12, 2005
  3. tshad

    MS_POSITIONING="GridLayout"

    tshad, Mar 1, 2005, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    5,417
    tshad
    Mar 1, 2005
  4. dee
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    2,908
  5. Replies:
    1
    Views:
    3,796
    JIMCO Software
    Sep 9, 2005
Loading...

Share This Page