Newbie wants advice on writing correct HTML

B

Barbara de Zoete

Barbara said:
Did you actually read Message-ID opsjpz1eszx5vgts@zoete_b [1]? What is it
you mis to get you started? Where do you see the debate there?
[1] or through Google if you don't know how to retrieve a single message
by its ID:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=opsjpz1eszx5vgts@zoete_b>

Barbara, that's a really scary reply to a newbie. I have no idea what you
are banging on about wrt a Message-ID.

I have no idea wat 'wrt' is.
All I was looking for, was some plain guidance, and indeed you have helped
me as I've indicated in my reply to you.

If you had looked at the timestamps on the messages you would have noticed we
were simply reading and typing at the same time. I saw your complaint, just
your complaint as other replies were not there, and responded there. That's
all.
But why do you guys cause us

'us'? Who are these 'us'? Speak for yourself. Don't hide behind an anonymous
group. I'm not at all impressed by that.
newbies to be so afraid

Don't be a cry-baby. Being touchy is not very useful in usegroups.
of asking for help when you reply with so much gobble-de-gook.

I have no idea what gobble-de-gook is. We're not all native speakers in here,
you know.
Good practice should always be explained in simple terms.

No way. In my responses I make my own rules. You don't get to set them for me.
I'm not here as a payed help desk person, nor do I teach for money through
here or anywhere else. If you don't understand what I say, you ask. Or not.
That is up to you.
I have no way of knowing what is your actual level of knowlegde.

If you don't like what you get, get a refund.


--
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| weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html> |
| webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html> |
| zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html> |
`---------------------------------------------------------------------------'
 
N

Neal

I have no idea what gobble-de-gook is.

It's confusing language that may as welll be nonsense.
We're not all native speakers in here, you know.

I think his point is that if one's expected to accommodate the non-native
speakers (and unless I knew, I'd never have known that about you) then one
should also be expected to accommodate the confused newbie.

Trouble is, on both counts, it's often hard to tell who's in either of
these groups.
 
D

Duende

While sitting in a puddle Karl Core scribbled in the mud:
You're a newbie. Start wherever you want.
XHTML would seem to make sense, because (esp. if you write to the strict
DTD) it will help you in the future.
There's a lot to learn, and despite the way it sounds, none of us know it
all. Start wherever you want and build from there.

brucie might give you an answer kinda like this:

the FAQs:

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/
http://www.html-faq.com/
http://hyweljenkins.co.uk/mfaq.php
http://www.alt-html.org/


some html tutorial/references:
http://www.pagetutor.com/
http://www.w3schools.com/
http://www.htmlcook.com/
http://www.w3.org/
http://smiley.vh.mewl.net/markhtml/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/
http://www.html-color-codes.com/
http://www.webmonkey.com/
http://www.htmlgoodies.com/
http://www.htmlcenter.com/tutorials/index.cfm
http://www.overturedesigns.com/jimmyd/
http://www.echoecho.com/html.htm
http://www.idocs.com/tags/
http://www.chami.com/tips/internet/
http://library.thinkquest.org/15074/htmlmain.html
http://www.pageresource.com/html/index.html
http://idm.internet.com/htmldhtml/
http://www.davesite.com/webstation/html/
http://www.htmlprimer.com/
http://tech.irt.org/articles/html.htm


downloadable tutorial/reference stuff:
http://www.htmlhelp.org/distribution/
http://www.trainingtools.com/
http://www.ncdesign.org/

downloadable books
http://www.oreilly.com/openbook

*real* books

HTML 4 for Dummies
http://catalog.dummies.com/product.asp?isbn=0764507230

HTML 4 For Dummies Quick Reference
http://catalog.dummies.com/product.asp?isbn=0764507214

XHTML For Dummies
http://catalog.dummies.com/product.asp?isbn=0764507516

HTML 4 Bible
http://catalog.dummies.com/product.asp?isbn=0764534734

HTML 4 for the World Wide Web Visual Quickstart Guide
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201354934/o/qid=994234510/sr=2-
1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/102-2523345-5720153

Building a Web Site For Dummies
http://catalog.dummies.com/product.asp?isbn=0764507206

Complete Idiots Guide to Creating a HTML Web Page
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/078971146X/qid=1006325948/sr=1-
1/ref=sr_1_2_1/002-8242006-0232061

Yale Basic Design Principles for Creating Web Sites
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300076754/webstyleguidecom/104-
5911374-4405546

XHTML 1.0 Specification: http://www.w3.org/TR/html/
HTML 4.01 Specification: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
HTML Validator: http://validator.w3.org/

css tutorials:
http://www.css.nu/
http://www.w3schools.com/css/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/css/
http://www.blazonry.com/css/
http://htmlgoodies.earthweb.com/beyond/css.html
http://www.htmlcenter.com/tutorials/index.cfm
http://www.freewebmastertips.com/php/content.php3?aid=48
http://www.westciv.com.au/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/
http://library.thinkquest.org/15074/cssmain.html
http://www.pageresource.com/dhtml/indexcss.htm
http://idm.internet.com/articles/200101/csstutorial1a.html

Cascading Style Sheets, Level 1: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1.html
Cascading Style Sheets, Level 2: http://www.w3.org/tr/rec-css2/cover.html
Cascading Style Sheet Validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

assorted:
HTML Hell Page
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/html-hell.html
top ten mistakes in web design
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html
new top-10 design mistakes
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530_comments.html
ten good deeds in web design
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/991003.html
the list of bad sh!t:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/
what makes a great web site?
http://webreference.com/greatsite.html
sucky to savvy
http://jeffglover.com/ss/ssmain.php
Amateur Web Sites - the Top Ten Signs
http://www.webdevelopersjournal.com/columns/abc_mistakes.html
Dan's Web Tips
http://www.dantobias.com/webtips/
style guide for online hypertext
http://www.w3.org/provider/style/
abigails dream
http://www.foad.org/~abigail/WWW/dream.html
various articles on web design
http://www.merges.net/theory/
web pages that suck
http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/
how to make an annoying webpage
http://users.nac.net/falken/annoying/
Writing for the Web
http://www.training.connect.org.uk/resources/webwriting.html
So you want to create a home page?
http://www.malibutelecom.com/yucca/coolhome.html
Practical accessibility: Core concepts
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~webteach/articles/access.html
Online Composition and Design Technology
http://www.ocdt.net/
yale web style guide
http://info.med.yale.edu/caim/manual/index.html
writing or editing web copy
http://www.provenanceunknown.com/edit/style.html
Web users suffer from the fall
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,670981,00.html
HTML Standards Compliance - Why Bother ?
http://wdvl.com/Authoring/HTML/Standards/
Top 3 HTML Straw Man Arguments
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/www/html-smac.html
"anybrowser vs. WaSP - Battle of the Purists"
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/writing/webdesign_standards.html
So, why bother?
http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/why.html
Matt and Todd posted to ciwas
http://css.nu/articles/font-analogy.html
Hey Flasher, Stop Abusing your Visitors (editorial)
http://www.flazoom.com/news/user_06202000.shtml
http://www.dack.com/web/flash_evil.html
How can I make my pages look good on all monitors?
http://www.thepattysite.com/window_sizes1.cfm
Readability Of Websites
http://hubel.sfasu.edu/research/AHNCUR.html
business philosophy on the net
http://www.cluetrain.com/
Designing Web Sites for PDAs
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/20/index2a.html?tw=design
learning to use color on your web site
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/6858.html
online websafe color mixer
http://www.colormix.com/


http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Graphics/Image_Catalogui
ng/
 
B

Barbara de Zoete

B

Barbara de Zoete

It's confusing language that may as welll be nonsense.

Thanks again.
I think his point is that if one's expected to accommodate the non-native
speakers (and unless I knew, I'd never have known that about you) then one
should also be expected to accommodate the confused newbie.

I don't think we should really accommodate one another. We're all grown-ups,
aren't we? Or most of us are. So if something is said you don't understand:
ask. That cannot be all that hard.
Trouble is, on both counts, it's often hard to tell who's in either of these
groups.

Agreed, so lets ask if something is not understood. That way each of them
takes care of themself.

--
,------------- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: --------------.
| weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html> |
| webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html> |
| zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html> |
`---------------------------------------------------------------------------'
 
P

paul

Ed said:
It's happened, just as I feared. I asked for some help/advice in my
original posting, hoping for a clear way forward, but the result seems
to have generated a debate amongst yourselves about the pros/cons of
various protocols etc.

I really do want help from you guys. You know so much. But for me,
tarting from the beginning with no legacy systems to worry about, would
XHTML and CSS and a bit of javascript be a good basis on which to launch
a website?

So far, I am confused by all your replies to each other.

I really don't know how to proceed now?


Plain html will certainly be supported for a long time to come. Ignore
that debate unless you can figure out what XML is actually used for, I
still don't understand it.

Skip the java, some people don't have it & it's just another complicated
thing to learn/screw up. If you use any make it optional, not critical
to viewing the page.

Here's the authorative reference material:
HTML specifications: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
HTML validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/#specs
CSS validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

Get an editor with color coding & automatic indenting as recommended by
others & keep things real simple, validating often to learn it right the
first time. Use indenting & tidy coding to keep things very clear and neat:

<html>

<head>
<meta name="Author" content="Ed">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1"<title>Ed's Page</title>
</head>

<body>

<h1> Ed's Family Page </h1>

<ul>
<li>
<a href="page1.htm" title="index page">Home</a>
</li>
<li>
<a href="page2.htm" title="second page">Page2</a>
</li>
</ul>

<h2> Intro </h1>
<p>
introductory paragraph
</p>
<p>
second introductory paragraph
</p>

<h2> More info </h1>
<p>
another paragraph
</p>

</body>
</html>

Don't worry about presentation & layout, use CSS for that later. Don't
use lone <p> or <br> tags for line breaks, you can format it later. The
<h1> is the main header for the page, don't worry that it makes line
breaks bigger than you want or is too bold or whether it's centered or
not. I showed a page menu as a list which is what it should be
logically, later you can make it line up horizonatally across the page &
take the bullets off. Think of this as a technical outline using html
tags for the logical structure.

Now reference an external CSS file in the head & start setting the
presentation. in CSS you can make all the <h1> text your favorite color
of green (or all text for that matter) and take out the annoying extra
spaces, make it a bit smaller, center it, etc.

<head>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="ed.css">
</head>

If your uncle views your page on his palm pilot or cell phone he won't
see any of this but the logical structure in the raw html will read
sensibly and be easy for him to follow.

ed.css:
body {
color: white;
font-family: Times New Roman, serif;
margin-left: auto;
margin-right: auto;
}

h1, h2, h3, h4 {
margin: 0 0 0.2em 0; /*top right bottom left*/
padding: 0;
color: green;
}

h1 {
font-size: 2em;
}
h2 {
font-size: 1.5em;
}

p {
margin: 0 0 0.2em 0; /*top right bottom left*/
padding: 0;
}

Use "em" or % as your scaling unit (not pixels or points or inches), an
"em" is equal to the size of one text character, because people will use
different font scaling on different computers. You can never really
control things, just set rules for how people will fit things into their
browser windows. Try changing the text zoom periodically to see if
things still work.

Keep it simple and clean and ask here how to add each new trick you want
to learn & make sure you are doing it correctly. People won't complain
if you have clean code and you won't end up copying things wrong all
over making a mess to clean up and won't learn bad habits. See who is
smart & steal their techniques! Use view > source to steal people's code
from any web page, look for their external CSS file in the head to steal
that, it's OK to steal in bits & pieces gradually, really it is.

Learn some real basic server side scripting techniques to duplicate your
header & menu to all the pages for easier updates. Just a very simple
"include" statement is all you need. Use PHP for that if your host
supports it.

When making links, don't say ["click here" for my hobby page], instead
say [this is my "hobby page"] so the link text makes sense. "Click here"
is meaningless.
 
E

Ed

Barbara said:
Barbara said:
Did you actually read Message-ID opsjpz1eszx5vgts@zoete_b [1]? What
is it you mis to get you started? Where do you see the debate there?
[1] or through Google if you don't know how to retrieve a single
message by its ID:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=opsjpz1eszx5vgts@zoete_b>

Barbara, that's a really scary reply to a newbie. I have no idea what
you are banging on about wrt a Message-ID.

I have no idea wat 'wrt' is.
All I was looking for, was some plain guidance, and indeed you have
helped me as I've indicated in my reply to you.

If you had looked at the timestamps on the messages you would have
noticed we were simply reading and typing at the same time. I saw your
complaint, just your complaint as other replies were not there, and
responded there. That's all.
But why do you guys cause us


'us'? Who are these 'us'? Speak for yourself. Don't hide behind an
anonymous group. I'm not at all impressed by that.
newbies to be so afraid


Don't be a cry-baby. Being touchy is not very useful in usegroups.
of asking for help when you reply with so much gobble-de-gook.

I have no idea what gobble-de-gook is. We're not all native speakers in
here, you know.
Good practice should always be explained in simple terms.

No way. In my responses I make my own rules. You don't get to set them
for me.
I'm not here as a payed help desk person, nor do I teach for money
through here or anywhere else. If you don't understand what I say, you
ask. Or not. That is up to you.
I have no way of knowing what is your actual level of knowlegde.

If you don't like what you get, get a refund.
Barbara, I really do appreciate your help. Don't get me wrong on that.
Many thanks,

Ed
 
D

Duende

While sitting in a puddle Neal scribbled in the mud:
Pardon me while I kick myself for such a stupid comment...

Best to never read what you have already posted.
 
N

Neal

While sitting in a puddle Barbara de Zoete scribbled in the mud:


Yes we are.

I don't know, originally I grunted and cried a lot. I only learned a
language later on..
 
B

Blinky the Shark

Ed said:
It's happened, just as I feared. I asked for some help/advice in my
original posting, hoping for a clear way forward, but the result seems
to have generated a debate amongst yourselves about the pros/cons of
various protocols etc.

I'm not in the debate, but I have an observation for you, Ed. If you
only want one gospel, canonical, True answer, only ask one person. If
you ask a group, it's natural that you may receive more than one
opinion of what the answer is.

-
Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
 
S

Steve Pugh

SpaceGirl said:
XHTML isn't pointless; it encourages "correct" markup.

How?

How is <center><p><b>my heading</b></p></center>
any more correct just because it's written in XHTML than in HTML? How
does XHTML encourage authors not to write the above?
If you are going
to learn, XHTML makes more sense simply because the structure makes more
sense.

The structure is identical to that of HTML 4. That's the whole point.
If the structure was different you couldn't send out XHTML as
text/html and expect old browsers to cope with it.
HTML4.01 is far to loose, and teaches you right away to write
messy markup.

Sounds like an argument against Transitional not against HTML.

Steve
 
R

rf

SpaceGirl said:
XHTML isn't pointless; it encourages "correct" markup. If you are going
to learn, XHTML makes more sense simply because the structure makes more
sense. HTML4.01 is far to loose, and teaches you right away to write
messy markup.

Surely you are talking about the difference between transitional and strict.

There are two differences between HTML, an SGML application and XHTML,
exactly the same application expressed in XML: everything is in lower case;
all elements must be closed. Hardly hard stuff to "learn".

The difference between transitional and strict (of either flavour, HTML or
XHTML) is *significantly* greater and it is transitional that allows more
messy markup than strict, not HTML as against XHTML.

In any case even using XHTML strict it is still quite possible to write
"messy" markup, even if it validates. Nested tables for layout is still
allowed. Div soup is still allowed.
 

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