Off-topic: Corrisponding Successfulness of Software Engineers with Communication Ability...

C

Chris Uppal

Andrew said:
"Non-english speakers communicate better with
an international audience."

By "Non-english speakers", I am referring to
people who are fluent in English, yet still
think in another language.

Why?

Disclosure: I speak British English as my first and only language[*].

I think there's rather a lot of assumptions built into that, and I don't find
them altogether convincing (although there clearly is /some/ truth in it).

Consider the needs of a reader ("R") of some bit of English text (whether the
reader is a native English speaker or not). There should be a "sweet spot"
where the writing is most comprehensible to R. If the writer ("W") uses a
wider vocabulary than R is used to seeing then that will make the text harder
to follow (but, who knows, R may like it like that -- /I/ do...). But, on the
other hand, too narrow a vocabulary makes it harder for R too: W may have to
use more words to explain things than R needs, for instance. Similarly there
should be a sweet spot for sentence structure -- to complex and it hinders R,
too simple and it doesn't convey enough information. Similarly again, there
is probably a sweet spot for wordiness -- too many words makes it more work for
R to follow, but too few words reduces redundancy in the text, and thus makes
it harder for R to correct for any misunderstandings.

In the extreme case, if W is sufficiently uncomfortable in English then s/he
may miss important stuff out if it's much effort to write it in English; or may
cause misunderstanding by using words in ways that conflict with how R uses
them.

What I don't see a convincing reason to expect is that one non-native English
speaker's English would be more likely to hit another non-native English
speaker's sweet spot. Even if everybody didn't have different levels (and
kinds) of skills -- which, of course, they /do/ -- I'm not convinced that
someone who writes at a given skill level will produce text that is most
readily understood by someone who reads at the same skill level. FWIW, I am
happiest reading English which has been written by someone with more skill than
I possess -- why should I expect anyone else to be different ?

Of course, a native English speaking W may use a wider vocabulary, a more
complex sentence structure, or just plain more words, than R is most
comfortable with. It seems reasonable that /if/ W misses R's sweet spot, then
an English W will usually miss high (too complex, etc). But I'm not convinced
that a native English W is inherently more like to miss, or is likely to miss
by more, than an non-native W.

(BTW: None of the above should be taken as suggesting that I think my own
witterings here hit anyone's sweet spot -- English-native or otherwise -- nor
that they are even intended to do so.)

The only /inherent/ advantage that a non-native W would have (that I can think
of) is that they might be in a much better position to know if some English
construction was likely to confuse or mislead another non-native speaker. For
instance the English word "inflammable" is potentially misleading[**] it
doesn't break down as "in" + "flammable", meaning NOT flammable, as someone who
wasn't familiar with that /specific/ word would probably expect. That
potential for confusion would probably never occurr to a native English speaker
(it didn't occurr to me -- I found the example in a book).

-- chris

[*] The British Schooling System did attempt to teach me French. Which, as
anyone familiar with the British Schooling System will instantly guess, means
that I cannot in fact read, write, speak, or understand French :-(

[**] Dangerously so, which is why using the word "inflammable" on public
warning signs is inexcusable ;-)
 
P

Patricia Shanahan

Chris said:
Andrew said:
"Non-english speakers communicate better with
an international audience."

By "Non-english speakers", I am referring to
people who are fluent in English, yet still
think in another language.

Why?

Disclosure: I speak British English as my first and only language[*].

It is my first language, but after over 30 years living in California, I
claim reasonably good second language capability in American English.

I try to write reasonably formal English in newsgroups, avoiding idioms
and contractions, in the hope that even if I use a word a reader does
not know, their dictionary will include the meaning I intend.

Patricia
 
R

RedGrittyBrick

Andrew said:
"Non-english speakers communicate better with
an international audience."

As English English is my native language, It's hard for me to judge how
well my postings are understood by an international audience. I try to
avoid idiomatic English, use short sentences, and short paragraphs.

But I find it's easy to lapse into incomprehensible idiomatic English.
By "Non-english speakers", I am referring to
people who are fluent in English, yet still
think in another language.
....

I made a comment re. Google groups that I did
not think much about, "Which, as an aside,
and a groups user, I have never noticed.",
or rather, I was thinking of my minor
point about GG, rather than how to express it.

The phrase "as an aside and a groups user" is awkward. I think that was
poor English, but it was easy for me to understand because in spoken
English conversation, people often change their minds about a sentence
structure halfway through speaking it.
Someone who thinks in a language that is not
English, but then has to translate thoughts
to English, might take more time to think about
*how* to express that thought in a way that
can be understood by others.

Some people care and make great effort. Others leave it to Babelfish
and probably don't even realise how incomprehensible the result can be.

Some English speakers make little effort - for example the TXTrs who
don't bother about punctuation or capitalisation even though they know
the rules of English grammar. They are often harder to understand than
many people who learned English as a foreign language.

But sometimes you can see people who are just unable to express
themselves clearly in any language. Their translation into English
merely masks the underlying fog of confusion.

So I think your proposition is a generalisation that isn't very useful.
Thoughts? (Especially from people willing to
identify their primary language. My one and
only language is English - in case anybody is
unclear.)

The Internet Robustness Principle: "Be liberal in what you accept, and
conservative in what you send." It applies equally well to English
spelling, punctuation and grammar in newsgroups.
 
L

Lew

Michael said:
Since there's no feedback on my writing that tells me where I used
incorrect English, I can't rate them.

I never noticed any indication that English was not your native language.

You seem at least as fluent as those born to the language.

- Lew
 
D

Daniel Pitts


Damnit Jim, I'm a Engineer, not a English Major! :)

The irony of my poor spelling isn't lost on me. Although, I think
poor spelling isn't as bad as "txt speak". If its "close enough" to
the correct spelling, the cognitive distance won't hinder
understanding.

I hear Firefox 2.0 will spell check for me. Probably time to upgrade,
especially since I post so much.

On the plus side, my article ranks the highest for the incorrect
spelling :)
 

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