Pervasiveness of STL

Discussion in 'C++' started by Paul, Feb 16, 2010.

  1. Paul

    Paul Guest

    Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    STL? It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    streamlined. It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..
    Paul, Feb 16, 2010
    #1
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  2. Paul wrote:
    > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > STL?


    I had to look the "uptake" up in an attempt to understand what you are
    asking :)

    Now I wonder how one would collect the "stats or info" of that nature?
    How do you *measure* the uptake? Is it like a census, where you simply
    ask, "what's your uptake of STL (from 0 to 5)"? And then, whom do you ask?

    > It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > streamlined. It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..


    I [personally] don't see STL (or the Standard Library, as it is actually
    called) as a singleton. It's a smörgåsbord. Yes, there are areas in
    it, and there are certain concepts that are the underlying philosophy,
    but you don't have to learn it all to use it (or even to improve it).
    The philosophy, mind you, is *not* really complicated. And it is well
    covered by some books that have been around for a while and endured
    several editions/revisions.

    The wrinkles and gaps are being worked on on an individual basis. Since
    the underlying philosophy is stable, every part just needs a critical
    mass of users to push the solution for any existing issue closer to the
    Committee.

    Just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation)

    V
    --
    Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
    I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
    Victor Bazarov, Feb 16, 2010
    #2
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  3. Paul

    jamm Guest

    Paul wrote:

    > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > STL? It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > streamlined. It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..


    Don't know any hard figures.. anecdotal-ly speaking it seems like it was
    shunned early on due to bugs and bad compiler support. Then slowly thru the
    late ninetes up till today more developers starting learning and using it.
    Everyone knows at least about vector and iostream, etc..

    However in embedded development it is still avoided for the most part.

    --
    *From the 1966 TV series:*
    Robin: You can't get away from Batman that easy!
    Batman: Easily.
    Robin: Easily.
    Batman: Good grammar is essential, Robin.
    jamm, Feb 16, 2010
    #3
  4. Paul

    red floyd Guest

    On Feb 16, 1:54 pm, jamm <> wrote:

    >
    > However in embedded development it is still avoided for the most part.


    On the embedded projects I worked on, it was generally due to the
    "no dynamic allocation" rule.
    red floyd, Feb 16, 2010
    #4
  5. Paul

    tonydee Guest

    On Feb 17, 1:32 am, Paul <> wrote:
    > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > STL?  It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > streamlined.  It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..


    I've never seen figures.

    In server-side development, I'm aware of many companies that still use
    proprietary libraries that may overlap with the STL, but where either
    the STL or proprietary offerings would do, most will either allow or
    actively recommend the STL be used in preference. (The choice can
    sometimes be complicated by concerns re interfacing downwards to
    legacy libraries or upwards to client code....)

    As the STL Standard and implementations are already quite mature, I
    don't think you'll see a lot of "smoothing out"... it's more likely
    that you yourself learn more and adapt. The more you understand what
    the STL is doing and why, the more self-evident and manageable the
    gotchas will become.

    While there are gotchas etc., it's hard to imagine an alternative
    design could be significantly more robust in general usage without
    seriously compromising performance and/or convenient usage.

    AFAIK, there are no alternatives to the STL that are both
    significantly popular and increasingly so.

    Further, the usability, utility, clarity and concision of STL usage
    will improve with C++0x, e.g. lambdas, Concepts would have helped with
    error messages too :-(.

    Cheers,
    Tony
    tonydee, Feb 17, 2010
    #5
  6. Paul

    tonydee Guest

    On Feb 17, 1:32 am, Paul <> wrote:
    > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > STL?  It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > streamlined.  It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..


    I've never seen figures.

    In server-side development, I'm aware of many companies that still use
    proprietary libraries that may overlap with the STL, but where either
    the STL or proprietary offerings would do, most will either allow or
    actively recommend the STL be used in preference. (The choice can
    sometimes be complicated by concerns re interfacing downwards to
    legacy libraries or upwards to client code....)

    As the STL Standard and implementations are already quite mature, I
    don't think you'll see a lot of "smoothing out"... it's more likely
    that you yourself learn more and adapt. The more you understand what
    the STL is doing and why, the more self-evident and manageable the
    gotchas will become.

    While there are gotchas etc., it's hard to imagine an alternative
    design could be significantly more robust in general usage without
    seriously compromising performance and/or convenient usage.

    AFAIK, there are no alternatives to the STL that are both
    significantly popular and increasingly so.

    Further, the usability, utility, clarity and concision of STL usage
    will improve with C++0x, e.g. lambdas, Concepts would have helped with
    error messages too :-(.

    Cheers,
    Tony
    tonydee, Feb 17, 2010
    #6
  7. Paul

    Paul Guest

    On Feb 16, 11:49 am, Victor Bazarov <> wrote:
    > Paul wrote:
    > > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > > STL?

    >
    > I had to look the "uptake" up in an attempt to understand what you are
    > asking :)
    >
    > Now I wonder how one would collect the "stats or info" of that nature?
    > How do you *measure* the uptake?  Is it like a census, where you simply
    > ask, "what's your uptake of STL (from 0 to 5)"?  And then, whom do you ask?


    Just anecdotes that serves as indicators.

    >  >  It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    >
    > > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > > streamlined.  It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..

    >
    > I [personally] don't see STL (or the Standard Library, as it is actually
    > called) as a singleton.  It's a sm rg sbord.  Yes, there are areas in
    > it, and there are certain concepts that are the underlying philosophy,
    > but you don't have to learn it all to use it (or even to improve it).
    > The philosophy, mind you, is *not* really complicated.  And it is well
    > covered by some books that have been around for a while and endured
    > several editions/revisions.
    >
    > The wrinkles and gaps are being worked on on an individual basis.  Since
    > the underlying philosophy is stable, every part just needs a critical
    > mass of users to push the solution for any existing issue closer to the
    > Committee.
    >
    > Just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation)
    >
    > V


    Ouch. Thanks.
    Paul, Feb 17, 2010
    #7
  8. Paul

    Paul Guest

    On Feb 16, 4:54 pm, jamm <> wrote:
    > Paul wrote:
    > > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > > STL?  It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > > streamlined.  It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..

    >
    > Don't know any hard figures.. anecdotal-ly speaking it seems like it was
    > shunned early on due to bugs and bad compiler support. Then slowly thru the
    > late ninetes up till today more developers starting learning and using it..
    > Everyone knows at least about vector and iostream, etc..
    >
    > However in embedded development it is still avoided for the most part.


    Cool....I'm not doing embedded, so I'm lucky. Just worried about
    getting data analysis done quickly (minimal coding/debugging time) and
    adaptably (meaning the needs can change significantly in short time).
    A high level "meta-language" with much knowledge and support is a boon.
    Paul, Feb 17, 2010
    #8
  9. Paul

    Paul Guest

    On Feb 16, 10:24 pm, tonydee <> wrote:
    > On Feb 17, 1:32 am, Paul <> wrote:
    >
    > > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > > STL?  It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > > streamlined.  It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..

    >
    > I've never seen figures.
    >
    > In server-side development, I'm aware of many companies that still use
    > proprietary libraries that may overlap with the STL, but where either
    > the STL or proprietary offerings would do, most will either allow or
    > actively recommend the STL be used in preference.  (The choice can
    > sometimes be complicated by concerns re interfacing downwards to
    > legacy libraries or upwards to client code....)
    >
    > As the STL Standard and implementations are already quite mature, I
    > don't think you'll see a lot of "smoothing out"... it's more likely
    > that you yourself learn more and adapt.  The more you understand what
    > the STL is doing and why, the more self-evident and manageable the
    > gotchas will become.
    >
    > While there are gotchas etc., it's hard to imagine an alternative
    > design could be significantly more robust in general usage without
    > seriously compromising performance and/or convenient usage.
    >
    > AFAIK, there are no alternatives to the STL that are both
    > significantly popular and increasingly so.
    >
    > Further, the usability, utility, clarity and concision of STL usage
    > will improve with C++0x, e.g. lambdas, Concepts would have helped with
    > error messages too :-(.


    Oh, yeah. I remember some of those messages.

    You said no alternative...do you mean in general, or in C++? Many
    computing environments have gone Microsoft these days, but I have high
    hopes of VST/VSTA environment supporting standards. I haven't yet
    started to search for info on whether STL is supported. C++ is the
    only language I know of with templates, so I'm not sure if it even
    makes sense to ask about STL equivalents in other programming
    languages/environments.
    Paul, Feb 17, 2010
    #9
  10. Paul

    tonydee Guest

    On Feb 18, 2:55 am, Paul <> wrote:
    > On Feb 16, 10:24 pm, tonydee <> wrote:
    > > On Feb 17, 1:32 am, Paul <> wrote:

    >
    > > > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > > > STL?  It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > > > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > > > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > > > streamlined.  It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > > > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..

    > > ...
    > > Further, the usability, utility, clarity and concision of STL usage
    > > will improve with C++0x, e.g. lambdas, Concepts would have helped with
    > > error messages too :-(.

    >
    > Oh, yeah.  I remember some of those messages.


    They have a reputation worse than they deserve... :).

    > > AFAIK, there are no alternatives to the STL that are both
    > > significantly popular and increasingly so.

    >
    > You said no alternative...do you mean in general, or in C++?


    I mean in C++. Other languages have their own container
    abstractions....

    >  Many
    > computing environments have gone Microsoft these days, but I have high
    > hopes of VST/VSTA environment supporting standards.  I haven't yet
    > started to search for info on whether STL is supported.


    I'd never heard of VST/VSTA... can't offer any insights there.

    > C++ is the
    > only language I know of with templates, so I'm not sure if it even
    > makes sense to ask about STL equivalents in other programming
    > languages/environments.


    It depends on how "equivalent" you mean. I don't think you'll find
    many languages' containers have an equivalent container/iterator/
    algorithm design. Some languages have to embed support for particular
    containers, as they can't be efficiently implemented as libraries in
    that language. I've heard on the grapevine that Java and C# have
    added some features vaguely like C++ templates in the last couple
    years, but don't know the details. 3 months of C# was enough to cure
    any curiousity ;-P.

    Cheers,
    Tony
    tonydee, Feb 18, 2010
    #10
  11. Paul

    jamm Guest

    > that language. I've heard on the grapevine that Java and C# have
    > added some features vaguely like C++ templates in the last couple
    > years, but don't know the details. 3 months of C# was enough to cure
    > any curiousity ;-P.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Tony


    Java and C# offer "Generics". Gives some template like functionality.

    --
    *From the 1966 TV series:*
    Robin: You can't get away from Batman that easy!
    Batman: Easily.
    Robin: Easily.
    Batman: Good grammar is essential, Robin.
    jamm, Feb 18, 2010
    #11
  12. Paul

    Paul Guest

    On Feb 17, 8:48 pm, tonydee <> wrote:
    > On Feb 18, 2:55 am, Paul <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Feb 16, 10:24 pm, tonydee <> wrote:
    > > > On Feb 17, 1:32 am, Paul <> wrote:

    >
    > > > > Does anyone know of stats or info indicating how what the uptake of
    > > > > STL?  It takes quite a while to read all the gotchas and best
    > > > > practices (some of them more easily ingestible than others), but I
    > > > > take pervasiveness as an indication of how such knowledge will be
    > > > > streamlined.  It also indicates how much momentum there will be in
    > > > > improving the STL, smoothening out wrinkles and gaps, etc..
    > > > ...
    > > > Further, the usability, utility, clarity and concision of STL usage
    > > > will improve with C++0x, e.g. lambdas, Concepts would have helped with
    > > > error messages too :-(.

    >
    > > Oh, yeah.  I remember some of those messages.

    >
    > They have a reputation worse than they deserve... :).


    In that case, I must not have gotten beyond the beginner phase
    sufficiently to see that...which is itself an indication of the
    decipherability of the error messages (if you need much experience for
    them to be helpful).

    > > > AFAIK, there are no alternatives to the STL that are both
    > > > significantly popular and increasingly so.

    >
    > > You said no alternative...do you mean in general, or in C++?

    >
    > I mean in C++.  Other languages have their own container
    > abstractions....
    >
    > >  Many
    > > computing environments have gone Microsoft these days, but I have high
    > > hopes of VST/VSTA environment supporting standards.


    Bob, did I ever do a typo there. I meant to say that I *don't* have
    high hopes of support for standards by VST/VSTA.

    > > I haven't yet
    > > started to search for info on whether STL is supported.

    >
    > I'd never heard of VST/VSTA... can't offer any insights there.


    Visual Studio Tools (for Applications), the new environment for VBA
    (and a bunch of other languages e.g. C++).

    > > C++ is the
    > > only language I know of with templates, so I'm not sure if it even
    > > makes sense to ask about STL equivalents in other programming
    > > languages/environments.

    >
    > It depends on how "equivalent" you mean.  I don't think you'll find
    > many languages' containers have an equivalent container/iterator/
    > algorithm design.  Some languages have to embed support for particular
    > containers, as they can't be efficiently implemented as libraries in
    > that language.  I've heard on the grapevine that Java and C# have
    > added some features vaguely like C++ templates in the last couple
    > years, but don't know the details.  3 months of C# was enough to cure
    > any curiousity ;-P.


    I meant a container library and algorithm library that is data-
    generic, not necessarily identical to STL but covering a broad range
    of useful and needed functionality. The genericness requires template-
    like features in the language, possibly provided at the precompile
    stage (if I recall correctly, templates and indeed C++ features were
    at one time resolved at the precompile stage -- maybe templates still
    are!).
    Paul, Feb 19, 2010
    #12
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