Problem with fonts

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Mike Azzopardi, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. Hi

    I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    Kiddietype font in their browser. I have used a stylesheet.

    I've seen the same browser IE5 and 6 with XP used and different results.

    Here is the link:

    www.bluemenagerie.co.uk

    I ended up putting the logo as a jpeg, but how come the 5 links, dont always
    show up in kiddietype?

    Thanks in advance

    Mike
     
    Mike Azzopardi, Feb 25, 2005
    #1
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  2. Mike Azzopardi

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Mike Azzopardi wrote:
    > Hi
    >
    > I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    > Kiddietype font in their browser. I have used a stylesheet.
    >
    > I've seen the same browser IE5 and 6 with XP used and different results.
    >
    > Here is the link:
    >
    > www.bluemenagerie.co.uk
    >
    > I ended up putting the logo as a jpeg, but how come the 5 links, dont always
    > show up in kiddietype?
    >
    > Thanks in advance
    >
    > Mike
    >
    >


    Because you can only use about 6 typefaces on web sites.

    Verdana,
    Georgia,
    Arial / Helvetica
    Times Roman,
    Tahoma,
    Courier

    These fonts are generally the only ones that are installed on ALL
    machines. You pick some other weird font and the user may just not have
    it installed.

    You have "Brush Script" and "KiddieType" fonts in your HTML. I have over
    1200 fonts on this machine (my design machine) and even *I* dont have
    either of those installed, so how do you expect the general public to
    have them?

    I think you need to take a step back and learn some HTML basics. Your
    page code is an aweful mess, and I'm suprised most browsers dont choke
    on it. Take a look at some of the guides on www.w3schools.com. They will
    help you a lot, I think.


    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2005
    #2
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  3. Mike Azzopardi

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "Mike Azzopardi" <> wrote:

    >I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    >Kiddietype font in their browser.


    Because Kiddietype is a rare font and most users won't have it
    installed.

    >I have used a stylesheet.


    Irrelevant.

    >I've seen the same browser IE5 and 6 with XP used and different results.
    >
    >www.bluemenagerie.co.uk


    No it's at http://freespace.virgin.net/mike.azzopardi/index.html

    Hmm, nasty attack of the click heres.

    >I ended up putting the logo as a jpeg, but how come the 5 links, dont always
    >show up in kiddietype?


    Because your stylesheet references KidTYPEPaint not kiddietype?

    You can't rely on a particular font being used on a web page - CSS is
    just a suggested presentation. After all, what font should a speech
    browser use?

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #3
  4. You're right I dont know anything about HTML. I did that in dreamweaver and
    have used about 4 incarnations of a old page template and gone "save as"
    without starting from scratch, so I dread to think what old rubbish is lying
    around.

    I just want the simplist of sites and don't have much time.

    But on the subject of fonts. That font is integreal to the way i want to
    portray my text, so apart from taking screenshots of it, is there any other
    way for that font to be displayed in a browser, if the user hasn't got the
    font installed?

    Thanks for telling me why it isn't working though.



    "SpaceGirl" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Mike Azzopardi wrote:
    >> Hi
    >>
    >> I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    >> Kiddietype font in their browser. I have used a stylesheet.
    >>
    >> I've seen the same browser IE5 and 6 with XP used and different results.
    >>
    >> Here is the link:
    >>
    >> www.bluemenagerie.co.uk
    >>
    >> I ended up putting the logo as a jpeg, but how come the 5 links, dont
    >> always show up in kiddietype?
    >>
    >> Thanks in advance
    >>
    >> Mike
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Because you can only use about 6 typefaces on web sites.
    >
    > Verdana,
    > Georgia,
    > Arial / Helvetica
    > Times Roman,
    > Tahoma,
    > Courier
    >
    > These fonts are generally the only ones that are installed on ALL
    > machines. You pick some other weird font and the user may just not have it
    > installed.
    >
    > You have "Brush Script" and "KiddieType" fonts in your HTML. I have over
    > 1200 fonts on this machine (my design machine) and even *I* dont have
    > either of those installed, so how do you expect the general public to have
    > them?
    >
    > I think you need to take a step back and learn some HTML basics. Your page
    > code is an aweful mess, and I'm suprised most browsers dont choke on it.
    > Take a look at some of the guides on www.w3schools.com. They will help you
    > a lot, I think.
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    >
    > x theSpaceGirl (miranda)
    >
    > # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    > # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    Mike Azzopardi, Feb 25, 2005
    #4
  5. Mike Azzopardi

    Steve Pugh Guest

    SpaceGirl <> wrote:
    >Mike Azzopardi wrote:
    >>
    >> I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    >> Kiddietype font in their browser. I have used a stylesheet.

    >
    >Because you can only use about 6 typefaces on web sites.


    No, you can use any font you like, you just can't rely on all users
    seeing it.

    >Verdana,
    >Georgia,
    >Arial / Helvetica
    >Times Roman,
    >Tahoma,
    >Courier


    98%, 95%, 99%/88%, 99% (assuming you actually mean Times New Roman),
    88%, 97% (though Courier New is 98%). According to the survey of 800
    users carried out by Visibone -
    http://www.visibone.com/font/FontResults.html

    Widespread but not on all machines.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #5
  6. Mike Azzopardi

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Steve Pugh wrote:
    > SpaceGirl <> wrote:
    >
    >>Mike Azzopardi wrote:
    >>
    >>>I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    >>>Kiddietype font in their browser. I have used a stylesheet.

    >>
    >>Because you can only use about 6 typefaces on web sites.

    >
    >
    > No, you can use any font you like, you just can't rely on all users
    > seeing it.
    >
    >
    >>Verdana,
    >>Georgia,
    >>Arial / Helvetica
    >>Times Roman,
    >>Tahoma,
    >>Courier

    >
    >
    > 98%, 95%, 99%/88%, 99% (assuming you actually mean Times New Roman),
    > 88%, 97% (though Courier New is 98%). According to the survey of 800
    > users carried out by Visibone -
    > http://www.visibone.com/font/FontResults.html
    >
    > Widespread but not on all machines.
    >
    > Steve
    >


    I was KISSing as the page was by a n00b. Effectively I was right. Mr
    Pedantic :p

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2005
    #6
  7. Mike Azzopardi

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "Mike Azzopardi" <> wrote:

    >You're right I dont know anything about HTML. I did that in dreamweaver and
    >have used about 4 incarnations of a old page template and gone "save as"
    >without starting from scratch, so I dread to think what old rubbish is lying
    >around.
    >
    >I just want the simplist of sites and don't have much time.


    If you're time poor then make some lucky web developer money rich and
    pay someone to do he job for you.

    >But on the subject of fonts. That font is integreal to the way i want to
    >portray my text,


    Then your text is not suitable for use on the WWW. Try a different
    medium instead, e.g. print.

    >so apart from taking screenshots of it, is there any other
    >way for that font to be displayed in a browser, if the user hasn't got the
    >font installed?


    There's WEFT, it's Windows IE only.
    http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm
    So a proportion of your visitors will still see your text in a
    different font.

    And please don't top post.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #7
  8. Mike Azzopardi

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Mike Azzopardi wrote:
    > You're right I dont know anything about HTML. I did that in dreamweaver and
    > have used about 4 incarnations of a old page template and gone "save as"
    > without starting from scratch, so I dread to think what old rubbish is lying
    > around.
    >
    > I just want the simplist of sites and don't have much time.
    >
    > But on the subject of fonts. That font is integreal to the way i want to
    > portray my text, so apart from taking screenshots of it, is there any other
    > way for that font to be displayed in a browser, if the user hasn't got the
    > font installed?
    >
    > Thanks for telling me why it isn't working though.


    Well, there's no easy way to do it. Although it IS possible to embed
    fonts in HTML (or, rather, CSS), it is browser specific and really
    doesn't work that well. You really only have two solutions: redesign the
    page from scratch, with the emphasis on DESIGN, and this time take into
    account the lack of fonts. Or, render your text as images. The latter is
    really bad as search engines will practically ignore your site (they
    cannot read text that is in an image). I'd start over if I were you. A
    page with NO <font> tags at all. Use CSS. At least you have a little
    more control over the suggested display. However, you always need to
    remember (as Steve pointed out elsewhere in this thread), CSS and HTML
    formatting only SUGGEST formatting for the browser to follow. There is
    no guarantee at all that every machine/browser/person will see the same
    things on your page. Just not possible.


    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2005
    #8
  9. Mike Azzopardi

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Steve Pugh wrote:

    > And please don't top post.
    >
    > Steve
    >


    You seem moody tonight. Everything okay?

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2005
    #9
  10. Thanks for the useful tips Steve and Miranda

    Apologies for asking questions about a subject i know nothing about.

    Mike
     
    Mike Azzopardi, Feb 25, 2005
    #10
  11. Mike Azzopardi

    Steve Pugh Guest

    SpaceGirl <> wrote:
    >Steve Pugh wrote:
    >
    >> And please don't top post.
    >>

    >You seem moody tonight. Everything okay?


    Asking someone not to top post makes me moody? This must be a very
    moody newsgroup...

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #11
  12. Mike Azzopardi

    gcc Guest

    <everthing irrelevent to the Font issue snipped>

    >Your page code is an aweful mess ,



    Would you be kind enough to Explain this statement please?
    So maybe some people that write a little HTML and such don't create such a
    mess and cause Browsers to Choke.....

    I mean cause you basically said "Your Page Sucks Dude"

    Thats kinda rude if ya ask me.....
     
    gcc, Feb 25, 2005
    #12
  13. Mike Azzopardi

    Steve Pugh Guest

    SpaceGirl <> wrote:
    >Steve Pugh wrote:
    >> SpaceGirl <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Because you can only use about 6 typefaces on web sites.

    >>
    >> No, you can use any font you like, you just can't rely on all users
    >> seeing it.
    >>

    >I was KISSing as the page was by a n00b. Effectively I was right. Mr
    >Pedantic :p


    First, I'm Mr know it all, now I'm Mr Pedantic. Some people like
    typing a long name instead of my actual short one? At least most
    people online can spell Pugh, you should hear some of the variations I
    get in real life. ;-/

    Anyway. The fewer lies we tell to the beginners now, the less they
    have to unlearn later.

    "You can suggest any font you like via CSS but it will only be used if
    the user has it installed. Here's a lits of fonts that are installed
    on 90% of all users' computers: [...]. (Probably should insert warning
    about not using Verdana.) However, even these may not be used due to
    user preference overriding your CSS suggestions."

    Not too complicated really.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #13
  14. Mike Azzopardi

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Mike Azzopardi"
    <> wrote:

    >I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    >Kiddietype font in their browser.


    You can only view using fonts that are already pre-installed on a
    user's browser.

    There are only a handful of typefaces that have a remote hope of being
    supported by a useful fraction of your users. Use the default install
    handful for Windows, maybe the Lucida set too, and always use the CSS
    generic names as a fallback. Remember that with CSS you can request
    from a wide range of typefaces and the first available will be used.
    So long as you have a "common" name and a generic name at the end of
    the list, you'll get something vaguely usable.

    Be careful when designing around "weird" fonts that aren't going to be
    seen by a lot of users. Their sizing is often a dubious and the page
    layout may end up very strange (but then you're designing your pages
    for fluid layout anyway, aren't you).

    There is a technology for embedding fonts so that these are downloaded
    "on the fly", but it's pretty much M$oft only, it's a pain to use it
    and it basically doesn't work.

    Life sucks.



    --
    Free the Sudan One !
     
    Andy Dingley, Feb 25, 2005
    #14
  15. Mike Azzopardi

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "Mike Azzopardi" <> wrote:

    >Thanks for the useful tips Steve and Miranda


    You're welcome.

    >Apologies for asking questions about a subject i know nothing about.


    Best sort of subjects to ask questions about. Probably. Oh, never
    mind.

    Don't mind us. We're a funny bunch in alt.html and as it's Friday
    night the booze has been flowing...

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #15
  16. Mike Azzopardi

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "gcc" <> wrote:

    ><everthing irrelevent to the Font issue snipped>


    I think you mean everything RELEVANT...

    >>Your page code is an aweful mess ,

    >
    >Would you be kind enough to Explain this statement please?
    >So maybe some people that write a little HTML and such don't create such a
    >mess and cause Browsers to Choke.....


    Well, the validator lists a number of errors:
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://freespace.virgin.net/mike.azzopardi/index.html

    If you'd like any of those errors explained please ask.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #16
  17. "Mike Azzopardi" wrote:

    > I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    > Kiddietype font in their browser. I have used a stylesheet.
    >


    As many of the others have said, most users won't have that particular font.

    > I ended up putting the logo as a jpeg


    If you insist on using an image, you would do a lot better using a .gif for
    the logo instead of .jpeg, which is a "lossy" compression and gives you
    nasty little artefacts around your image.

    Also, your page needs a <title>, and perhaps some indication that hyperlinks
    are links e.g. underline, different colour, etc.

    -=# Amos E Wolfe #=-
     
    -=# Amos E Wolfe #=-, Feb 25, 2005
    #17
  18. Thanks EVERYONE for the info on here. Certainly given me a lot to think
    about.

    and sorry for the top posts ;-)

    Mike


    "-=# Amos E Wolfe #=-" <> wrote in message
    news:0aOTd.2907$...
    > "Mike Azzopardi" wrote:
    >
    >> I put up my new music page and i've found that some people can't view the
    >> Kiddietype font in their browser. I have used a stylesheet.
    >>

    >
    > As many of the others have said, most users won't have that particular
    > font.
    >
    >> I ended up putting the logo as a jpeg

    >
    > If you insist on using an image, you would do a lot better using a .gif
    > for the logo instead of .jpeg, which is a "lossy" compression and gives
    > you nasty little artefacts around your image.
    >
    > Also, your page needs a <title>, and perhaps some indication that
    > hyperlinks are links e.g. underline, different colour, etc.
    >
    > -=# Amos E Wolfe #=-
    >
     
    Mike Azzopardi, Feb 25, 2005
    #18
  19. Mike Azzopardi

    SpaceGirl Guest

    gcc wrote:
    > <everthing irrelevent to the Font issue snipped>
    >
    >>Your page code is an aweful mess ,

    >
    >
    >
    > Would you be kind enough to Explain this statement please?
    > So maybe some people that write a little HTML and such don't create such a
    > mess and cause Browsers to Choke.....
    >


    If the OP looked at the source code of the page, it makes sense.

    > I mean cause you basically said "Your Page Sucks Dude"
    >


    Which I didn't say, because I dont want to discourage beginners, or
    frighten them with complicated tech detail like Steve :)

    > Thats kinda rude if ya ask me.....


    Well if you're not the OP, then your reply is also rude :p And I didn't ask.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2005
    #19
  20. Mike Azzopardi

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when Steve Pugh <>
    wrote:

    >This must be a very moody newsgroup...


    Think of it as the chilled out, tolerant c.i.w.a.h
     
    Andy Dingley, Feb 25, 2005
    #20
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