qooxlisp live

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by Kenneth Tilton, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    site name):

    http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
    Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.

    Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    thing into submission.

    kt

    * I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
    starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
    in the wrong order.

    ** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
    for corralling the beast where this pisses off an external library, but
    these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
    case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work.
    Then not again.

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 7, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Kenneth Tilton wrote:

    > The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > site name):
    >
    > http://www.teamalgebra.com/
    >
    > For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
    > Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
    >
    > Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    > acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    > much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    > thing into submission.


    A ca. 3 MiB(!) download thanks to 344 HTTP requests (including 333(!)
    requests for script resources, which amount to ca. 3 MiB) that takes 1 min
    48 s(!) to load on a very broad Internet connection and a considerably fast
    system. And when it has finally loaded it shows only a simple form that
    stalls Iceweasel (Firefox): "A script on this page may be busy, or it may
    have stopped respnding ...". And you are saying this is but an *example*?

    Either you are not serious or you are completely nuts.

    In any case, thanks for showing us why not to use qooxdoo and code based on
    it.


    PointedEars
    --
    Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
    a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
    when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
    computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 7, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Am 2010-06-07 22:26, Kenneth Tilton meinte:
    > The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > site name):
    >
    > http://www.teamalgebra.com/
    >
    > For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
    > Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
    >
    > Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    > acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    > much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    > thing into submission.
    >
    > kt
    >
    > * I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
    > starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
    > in the wrong order.
    >
    > ** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
    > for corralling the beast where this pisses off an external library, but
    > these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
    > case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work.
    > Then not again.


    *Now* I get the picture. This is some large scale proof by you, that
    qooxdoo is the usual library crap and cannot be recommended. Smart. You
    are putting a lot of effort into that. I'm sorry that I can't admire
    your work, but loading the page just takes too long...

    Gregor


    --
    http://www.gregorkofler.com
     
    Gregor Kofler, Jun 7, 2010
    #3
  4. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    > Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    >
    >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >> site name):
    >>
    >> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
    >>
    >> For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
    >> Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
    >>
    >> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    >> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    >> much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    >> thing into submission.

    >
    > A ca. 3 MiB(!) download


    Wow, I better do a "release build" after all. Stay tuned.

    > thanks to 344 HTTP requests (including 333(!)
    > requests for script resources, which amount to ca. 3 MiB) that takes 1 min
    > 48 s(!) to load on a very broad Internet connection and a considerably fast
    > system.


    I can load in 4-5s. Sometimes a browser and my (lisp) server do not get
    along and the server feeds files in a trickle, like 3/sec. Have not
    figured out what that is all about, but resetting the browser works (at
    least for Safari).


    > And when it has finally loaded it shows only a simple form that
    > stalls Iceweasel (Firefox): "A script on this page may be busy, or it may
    > have stopped respnding ...". And you are saying this is but an *example*?
    >
    > Either you are not serious or you are completely nuts.
    >
    > In any case, thanks for showing us why not to use qooxdoo and code based on
    > it.


    It's what I live for, confirming your unthinking prejudices.

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 7, 2010
    #4
  5. Kenneth Tilton wrote:

    > Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    >> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    >>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >>> site name):
    >>>
    >>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
    >>> [...]

    >>
    >> A ca. 3 MiB(!) download

    >
    > Wow, I better do a "release build" after all. Stay tuned.


    That wouldn't increase the overall code quality, would it?

    >> thanks to 344 HTTP requests (including 333(!)
    >> requests for script resources, which amount to ca. 3 MiB) that takes 1
    >> min 48 s(!) to load on a very broad Internet connection and a
    >> considerably fast system.

    >
    > I can load in 4-5s. [...]


    I hate to break this to you, stupid, but you are really not alone on the Net
    or on client systems. Loading 3 MiB in 4 to 5 seconds requires a constant
    transfer rate of 614.5 to 768 KiB/s (not kbps; you may want to look up
    common transfer rates, especially on mobiles). Good luck finding someone to
    save all their bandwidth for your crappy scripts (you're going to need it).


    PointedEars
    --
    Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
    a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
    when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
    computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 7, 2010
    #5
  6. Kenneth Tilton

    RobG Guest

    Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > site name):
    >
    > http://www.teamalgebra.com/


    With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

    Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.
    Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    on any system.

    Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
    can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?


    [...]
    > Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    > acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    > much.


    "Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all.


    > I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    > thing into submission.


    You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.


    [...]
    > --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com


    Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
    is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.


    > "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    > Macworld


    Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

    According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version, which
    left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    Software" in April 1991.

    There seems to be a pattern here that does not leave a good
    impression.


    1. <URL: http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/macworld.html >


    --
    Rob
     
    RobG, Jun 8, 2010
    #6
  7. Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    RobG wrote:
    > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >> site name):
    >>
    >> http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.


    Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
    has a noscript chunk to help you out.

    >
    > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.


    I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
    server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.

    What browser/OS?

    > Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    > on any system.


    No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
    that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.

    Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
    nothing, but should be even better.

    >
    > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
    > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?


    I am starting to think it's my bug. The next release will have a
    "Search" button I suspect will work so you can at least have some fun.
    I'll try adding some instructions to the page itself.

    >
    >
    > [...]
    >> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    >> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    >> much.

    >
    > "Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all.


    I know the feeling, but messing around at one point it did start working
    in both.

    >
    >
    >> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    >> thing into submission.

    >
    > You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.


    I try.

    >
    >
    > [...]
    >> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

    >
    > Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
    > is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.


    Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder.

    >
    >
    >> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    >> Macworld

    >
    > Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.


    You never heard of Macworld?

    >
    > According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,


    The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.

    > which
    > left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    > Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    > superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    > Software" in April 1991.


    If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.



    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 8, 2010
    #7
  8. Gregor Kofler wrote:
    > Am 2010-06-07 22:26, Kenneth Tilton meinte:
    >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >> site name):
    >>
    >> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
    >>
    >> For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
    >> Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.
    >>
    >> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    >> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    >> much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    >> thing into submission.
    >>
    >> kt
    >>
    >> * I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
    >> starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
    >> in the wrong order.
    >>
    >> ** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
    >> for corralling the beast where this pisses off an external library, but
    >> these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
    >> case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work.
    >> Then not again.

    >
    > *Now* I get the picture. This is some large scale proof by you, that
    > qooxdoo is the usual library crap and cannot be recommended. Smart. You
    > are putting a lot of effort into that. I'm sorry that I can't admire
    > your work, but loading the page just takes too long...


    I am so surprised to discover you are drawing conclusions that align
    with what you believed before.

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 8, 2010
    #8
  9. Kenneth Tilton

    Scott Sauyet Guest

    Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    > RobG wrote:
    >> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >>> site name):

    >
    >>>    http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >
    >> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

    >
    > Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
    > has a noscript chunk to help you out.


    >
    >> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.

    >
    > I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
    > server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.



    I tested with a very fast connection and fast computer, and it never
    loaded in less than 8 seconds. Testing now at home over a mediocre
    DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache.

    >> Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    >> on any system.

    >
    > No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
    > that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.
    >
    > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
    > nothing, but should be even better.


    There are regular complaints on this group about the size of a 70KB
    (unzipped) file. Is all that really necessary for this relatively
    simple page?


    >>> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    >>> thing into submission.

    >
    >> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.

    >
    > I try.


    You try to what, annoy the hell out of everyone here?


    >> [...]
    >>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

    >
    >> Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
    >> is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.

    >
    > Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder.


    Or better yet, the person who posted it as an example...


    >>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    >>> Macworld

    >
    >> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

    >
    > You never heard of Macworld?


    http://www.google.com/search?q="The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen" site:macworld.com

    returns no results... Do you have a more detailed reference?


    >> According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,

    >
    > The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.


    >> which
    >> left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    >> Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    >> superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    >> Software" in April 1991.

    >
    > If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.


    Are you telling us that this ran on a Mac web browser in 1991?

    --
    Scott
     
    Scott Sauyet, Jun 8, 2010
    #9
  10. Kenneth Tilton

    RobG Guest

    Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    On Jun 8, 11:27 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > RobG wrote:
    > > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > >> site name):

    >
    > >> http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

    >
    > Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
    > has a noscript chunk to help you out.


    Good, but even better would be to have a plain HTML page that at least
    has some information about what the site is about, what it is supposed
    to demonstrate and some examples of its use.


    > > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.

    >
    > I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
    > server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.


    As Thomas said, if you think 3MB will take 5 seconds to load, you want
    approximately 25Mb to download at about 5mb/s. That's not including
    the 355 HTTP requests, intermediate browser processing, dropped
    packets, headers, etc. You are depending on caching quite a bit. Your
    (missing) introduction page could explain some of that so at least
    users are aware of the possible lengthy delay before making a decision
    about proceeding.


    > What browser/OS?


    The browsers are below, the OS is Windows XP.


    > > Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    > > on any system.

    >
    > No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
    > that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.


    What do you mean by "reset"? Restart? Close a tab and re-open? Clear
    the cache?


    > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
    > nothing, but should be even better.


    That should help, but will still require quite a bit of time and users
    should be warned so they can make their own decision about whether or
    not to proceed.


    > > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
    > > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?

    >
    > I am starting to think it's my bug. The next release will have a
    > "Search" button I suspect will work so you can at least have some fun.
    > I'll try adding some instructions to the page itself.


    Or to an introduction page that can be left open in another tab or
    window at the user's discretion.


    [...]
    > >> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

    [...]
    > >> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    > >> Macworld

    >
    > > Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

    >
    > You never heard of Macworld?


    Yes, but the attribution is incomplete (and the reader is left
    wondering why).


    > > According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,

    >
    > The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.


    Whether or not there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant. I can't
    find a link to a web version on that site, all links eventually lead
    to a download page that states:

    | Pick your operating system:
    | 1. Windows XP
    | 2. Windows Vista or Windows 7
    | 3. Mac OS X (coming soon!)

    The site does not offer a browser version and *states* that there is
    no Mac version. Whether there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant at
    this point.


    > > which
    > > left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    > > Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    > > superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    > > Software" in April 1991.

    >
    > If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.


    The *review* is superficial and nearly 20 years old, before the WWW
    was invented. Even if there is a web-based version available now, the
    review is of an entirely different product from an eon ago and
    therefore irrelevant.

    It's like IBM claiming technical competence based on a 1930s review of
    their electric accounting machine[1].

    1. <URL: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV9012.html
    >



    --
    Rob
     
    RobG, Jun 8, 2010
    #10
  11. Kenneth Tilton

    Adam Harvey Guest

    Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:27:49 -0700, RobG wrote:
    > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >> site name):
    >>
    >> http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.
    >
    > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load. Downloading
    > 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time on any system.


    For an additional data point (and example of exactly why having 350+
    dependencies for a single page is a problem): it took 3 minutes, 12
    seconds here. I have a rather fast Internet connection, but since I'm
    geographically a long way from the server, each request has a latency in
    the 275 millisecond range before anything useful is transferred. That
    adds up rather quickly with that many requests.

    > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
    > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?


    It seems to work for me in Firefox 3.6, although I don't have a clue what
    it's actually supposed to do.

    Adam
     
    Adam Harvey, Jun 8, 2010
    #11
  12. Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    Scott Sauyet wrote:
    > Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    >> RobG wrote:
    >>> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >>>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >>>> site name):
    >>>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/
    >>> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

    >> Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
    >> has a noscript chunk to help you out.

    >
    >>> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.

    >> I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
    >> server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.

    >
    >
    > I tested with a very fast connection and fast computer, and it never
    > loaded in less than 8 seconds.


    Yeah, I lied. I get 11s or so. The 4-5s was what I remembered from
    loading from localhost.

    > Testing now at home over a mediocre
    > DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache.


    I sometimes see it loading the 300+ files 4/s, never wait around to see
    it finish. I think the Lisp server I use might be doing that.

    For me, resetting the browser gets it back to loading in 10+s.

    Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it makes one file, 989kb.
    Trying to get that working for a release 2.0.


    >
    >>> Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    >>> on any system.

    >> No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
    >> that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.
    >>
    >> Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
    >> nothing, but should be even better.

    >
    > There are regular complaints on this group about the size of a 70KB
    > (unzipped) file. Is all that really necessary for this relatively
    > simple page?


    I think it's like Lisp applications: even "Hello World" will end up with
    most of Lisp in there. One could go crazy trying to have a build
    procedure take out uneccessary code, but then (a) how much would one
    save and (b) why bother? These frameworks are for RIAs, which will
    indeed use many components of a framework. The only beneficiary would be
    small demos, which I suspect is not worth the trouble. And libraries are
    pyramids -- that "simple" demo uses a nice variety of widgets, including
    a remote table with scrolling, movable and hidable columns, one column
    data renderer, and probably reaches down into a lot of code.


    >
    >
    >>>> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    >>>> thing into submission.
    >>> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.

    >> I try.

    >
    > You try to what, annoy the hell out of everyone here?


    I believe the people annoyed are the ones who hope to be both annoyed
    and annoying, aka, mindlessly abusive of anyone not using raw HTML. Yes,
    it gives me great pleasure to annoy them, since they are the ones being
    bullies and they totally need to be laughed at, not listened to.

    You have a sick little cult in this NG, self-important and posturing,
    utterly convinced of themselves while the silent majority just rolls
    their eyes at them and gets on with their work. Speaking of which...

    >
    >
    >>> [...]
    >>>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    >>> Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
    >>> is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.

    >> Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder.

    >
    > Or better yet, the person who posted it as an example...
    >
    >
    >>>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    >>>> Macworld
    >>> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

    >> You never heard of Macworld?

    >
    > http://www.google.com/search?q="The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen" site:macworld.com
    >
    > returns no results... Do you have a more detailed reference?


    I have the whole review somewhere, but a digital version could be tough
    to dig up. If you are seriously interested I'll look for it.

    >
    >
    >>> According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,

    >> The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.

    >
    >>> which
    >>> left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    >>> Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    >>> superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    >>> Software" in April 1991.

    >> If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.

    >
    > Are you telling us that this ran on a Mac web browser in 1991?


    No, it was written originally for the Mac, in C. The defter of the
    intellects in this group might be able to figure out I have decided to
    release it as a web app, hence qooxlisp. ie, plaintiff was confusing the
    present with the past.

    kt


    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 8, 2010
    #12
  13. Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    Kenneth Tilton wrote:

    > Scott Sauyet wrote:
    >> Testing now at home over a mediocre
    >> DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache.

    >
    > I sometimes see it loading the 300+ files 4/s, never wait around to see
    > it finish. I think the Lisp server I use might be doing that.
    >
    > For me, resetting the browser gets it back to loading in 10+s.
    >
    > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it makes one file, 989kb.
    > Trying to get that working for a release 2.0.


    "kb" means "kilobit" to you too, yes? If no, forget it, you are not ready
    for serious Web development.


    PointedEars
    --
    Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
    (This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
    will want to steal it.)
    -- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 8, 2010
    #13
  14. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    On Jun 7, 7:27 pm, RobG <> wrote:
    > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >
    > > The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > > site name):

    >
    > >    http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.
    >
    > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.
    > Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    > on any system.
    >
    > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
    > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?
    >
    >  [...]
    >
    > > Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    > > acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    > > much.

    >
    > "Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all.
    >
    > > I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    > > thing into submission.

    >
    > You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > > --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

    >
    > Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
    > is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.
    >
    > > "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    > > Macworld

    >
    > Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.
    >
    > According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version, which
    > left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    > Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    > superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    > Software" in April 1991.
    >
    > There seems to be a pattern here that does not leave a good
    > impression.
    >
    > 1. <URL:http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/macworld.html>
    >


    Yes. Like the repeating background image. But I suppose that's the
    least of the worries.

    Quite a flair for self-promotion, but folds on interrogation.
     
    David Mark, Jun 8, 2010
    #14
  15. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    On Jun 7, 9:27 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > RobG wrote:
    > > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > >> site name):

    >
    > >>    http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.

    >
    > Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
    > has a noscript chunk to help you out.


    The page is a Javascript library?!

    >
    >
    >
    > > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.

    >
    > I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
    > server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.
    >
    > What browser/OS?


    As if that matters. 3MB is 3MB (and about 2.95MB too much).

    >
    > > Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    > > on any system.

    >
    > No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
    > that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.
    >
    > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
    > nothing, but should be even better.


    You could fit 8 or 9 copies of My Library (the full build) in that
    file, plus all of the add-ons. And you'd actually have a shot at
    decent community support (as opposed to commiseration) as well. I
    tried to warn you.

    Those bloated widgets and OO syntactic sugar are bad for you. Like
    junk food, they'll give you a quick rush. Then you come back down to
    earth and realize you haven't budged from ground zero.

    >
    >
    >
    > > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
    > > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?

    >
    > I am starting to think it's my bug. The next release will have a
    > "Search" button I suspect will work so you can at least have some fun.
    > I'll try adding some instructions to the page itself.
    >
    >
    >
    > >  [...]
    > >> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    > >> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    > >> much.

    >
    > > "Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all.

    >
    > I know the feeling, but messing around at one point it did start working
    > in both.
    >
    >
    >
    > >> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    > >> thing into submission.

    >
    > > You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.

    >
    > I try.
    >
    >
    >
    > > [...]
    > >> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

    >
    > > Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
    > > is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.

    >
    > Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder.


    Technical criticism is not flaming. Go validate your markup.

    >
    >
    >
    > >> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself.."
    > >> Macworld

    >
    > > Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

    >
    > You never heard of Macworld?


    Nope. Okay, perhaps vaguely.

    >
    >
    >
    > > According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,

    >
    > The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.


    They sure didn't have Web browsers in 1991.

    >
    > > which
    > > left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    > > Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    > > superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    > > Software" in April 1991.

    >
    > If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.


    You are welcome to it. Just don't toss it around without proper
    attribution.
     
    David Mark, Jun 8, 2010
    #15
  16. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jun 7, 9:30 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > Gregor Kofler wrote:
    > > Am 2010-06-07 22:26, Kenneth Tilton meinte:
    > >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > >> site name):

    >
    > >>http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > >> For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
    > >> Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.

    >
    > >> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
    > >> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
    > >> much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    > >> thing into submission.

    >
    > >> kt

    >
    > >> * I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
    > >> starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
    > >> in the wrong order.

    >
    > >> ** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
    > >> for corralling the beast where this pisses off an external library, but
    > >> these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
    > >> case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work..
    > >> Then not again.

    >
    > > *Now* I get the picture. This is some large scale proof by you, that
    > > qooxdoo is the usual library crap and cannot be recommended. Smart. You
    > > are putting a lot of effort into that. I'm sorry that I can't admire
    > > your work, but loading the page just takes too long...

    >
    > I am so surprised to discover you are drawing conclusions that align
    > with what you believed before.
    >


    And I'm unsurprised that you are clinging to your delusions in the
    face of overwhelming evidence.
     
    David Mark, Jun 8, 2010
    #16
  17. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    On Jun 8, 8:47 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > Scott Sauyet wrote:
    > > Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    > >> RobG wrote:
    > >>> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > >>>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    > >>>> site name):
    > >>>>    http://www.teamalgebra.com/
    > >>> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.
    > >> Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version
    > >> has a noscript chunk to help you out.

    >
    > >>> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load.
    > >> I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the
    > >> server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s.

    >
    > > I tested with a very fast connection and fast computer, and it never
    > > loaded in less than 8 seconds.

    >
    > Yeah, I lied. I get 11s or so. The 4-5s was what I remembered from
    > loading from localhost.
    >
    > > Testing now at home over a mediocre
    > > DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache.

    >
    > I sometimes see it loading the 300+ files 4/s, never wait around to see
    > it finish. I think the Lisp server I use might be doing that.
    >
    > For me, resetting the browser gets it back to loading in 10+s.
    >
    > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it makes one file, 989kb.
    > Trying to get that working for a release 2.0.
    >
    >
    >
    > >>> Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time
    > >>> on any system.
    > >> No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that
    > >> that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s.

    >
    > >> Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not
    > >> nothing, but should be even better.

    >
    > > There are regular complaints on this group about the size of a 70KB
    > > (unzipped) file.  Is all that really necessary for this relatively
    > > simple page?

    >
    > I think it's like Lisp applications: even "Hello World" will end up with
    > most of Lisp in there.


    Oh. How lame. :(

    > One could go crazy trying to have a build
    > procedure take out uneccessary code, but then (a) how much would one
    > save and (b) why bother? These frameworks are for RIAs, which will
    > indeed use many components of a framework.


    Get real. If components cannot be separated, they aren't components.
    And even the most involved RIA's should require no more than 100K
    worth of widgets and such. Total.

    > The only beneficiary would be
    > small demos, which I suspect is not worth the trouble.


    You just have no experience with RIA's.

    > And libraries are
    > pyramids -- that "simple" demo uses a nice variety of widgets, including
    > a remote table with scrolling, movable and hidable columns, one column
    > data renderer, and probably reaches down into a lot of code.


    That's all piffle. There's no such thing as a (sound) UI widget that
    takes more than a day to implement. If you have a sound DOM scripting
    foundation (you don't), they are all about the same. And if you have
    any real experience at all (and you don't), you have most of the basic
    ones in stock.

    >
    >
    >
    > >>>> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
    > >>>> thing into submission.
    > >>> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.
    > >> I try.

    >
    > > You try to what, annoy the hell out of everyone here?

    >
    > I believe the people annoyed are the ones who hope to be both annoyed
    > and annoying, aka, mindlessly abusive of anyone not using raw HTML.


    Lemon curry?

    > Yes,
    > it gives me great pleasure to annoy them, since they are the ones being
    > bullies and they totally need to be laughed at, not listened to.


    And you are doing a hell of a job. :)

    >
    > You have a sick little cult in this NG, self-important and posturing,
    > utterly convinced of themselves while the silent majority just rolls
    > their eyes at them and gets on with their work. Speaking of which...
    >


    All this because you posted a link to a bloated and broken "RIA"?

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >>> [...]
    > >>>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    > >>> Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it
    > >>> is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors.
    > >> Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder.

    >
    > > Or better yet, the person who posted it as an example...

    >
    > >>>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    > >>>> Macworld
    > >>> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.
    > >> You never heard of Macworld?

    >
    > >http://www.google.com/search?q="The best Algebra tutorial program I....

    >
    > > returns no results...  Do you have a more detailed reference?

    >
    > I have the whole review somewhere, but a digital version could be tough
    > to dig up. If you are seriously interested I'll look for it.


    The check's in the mail?
     
    David Mark, Jun 8, 2010
    #17
  18. Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    Adam Harvey wrote:
    > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:27:49 -0700, RobG wrote:
    >> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
    >>> site name):
    >>>
    >>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/

    >> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page.
    >>
    >> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load. Downloading
    >> 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time on any system.


    Normally, eleven seconds. Sometimes in some browsers the server (I think
    the server is doing this) decides to give up only 2-4 files/second. Yes,
    that slows things down a bit.

    The good news is that I almost have the "release build" version working,
    and that is ~900kb in one file. Should help.

    >
    > For an additional data point (and example of exactly why having 350+
    > dependencies for a single page is a problem): it took 3 minutes, 12
    > seconds here. I have a rather fast Internet connection, but since I'm
    > geographically a long way from the server, each request has a latency in
    > the 275 millisecond range before anything useful is transferred. That
    > adds up rather quickly with that many requests.
    >
    >> Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I
    >> can't get it to do anything, are there instructions?

    >
    > It seems to work for me in Firefox 3.6, although I don't have a clue what
    > it's actually supposed to do.


    Search the lisp server for any source code name containing the supplied
    search string. Try "qx" or "qxl" to see names used in presenting the
    interface you are using.

    I'll sneak in a label to that effect now that I am spamming outside the
    lisp community.

    kt


    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 8, 2010
    #18
  19. Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    RobG wrote:

    >
    > [...]
    >>>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com

    > [...]
    >>>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    >>>> Macworld
    >>> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.

    >> You never heard of Macworld?

    >
    > Yes, but the attribution is incomplete (and the reader is left
    > wondering why).
    >
    >
    >>> According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version,

    >> The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop.

    >
    > Whether or not there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant. I can't
    > find a link to a web version on that site, all links eventually lead
    > to a download page that states:
    >
    > | Pick your operating system:
    > | 1. Windows XP
    > | 2. Windows Vista or Windows 7
    > | 3. Mac OS X (coming soon!)
    >
    > The site does not offer a browser version and *states* that there is
    > no Mac version. Whether there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant at
    > this point.
    >
    >
    >>> which
    >>> left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
    >>> Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
    >>> superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
    >>> Software" in April 1991.

    >> If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.

    >
    > The *review* is superficial and nearly 20 years old, before the WWW
    > was invented. Even if there is a web-based version available now, the
    > review is of an entirely different product from an eon ago and
    > therefore irrelevant.
    >
    > It's like IBM claiming technical competence based on a 1930s review of
    > their electric accounting machine[1].
    >
    > 1. <URL: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV9012.html
    >


    Dude, I am sharing a new Javascript framework, not promoting the Algebra
    software. Someone decided to go OT and root around in my sig for further
    opportunities to be a Usenet jerk.

    Meanwhile, fifteen years after the fact two educators separately and
    independently dug me up and asked if there is any way they could get the
    old version running since even now there is nothing like it and since it
    really helped their students significantly.

    Why are you guys so negative?

    Just to help the autistics out there, that is a rhetorical question.

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 8, 2010
    #19
  20. Re: qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware

    David Mark wrote:
    > Those bloated widgets and OO syntactic sugar are bad for you. Like
    > junk food, they'll give you a quick rush. Then you come back down to
    > earth and realize you haven't budged from ground zero.


    You sound like me talking about 4GLs. ie, I know the issue and fully
    considered it. The balance is in favor of having a great library that
    takes a bit longer to load. We can continue this after I install the
    "build" version which has the thing down to anywhere between 850-1059kb
    in one file, depending on the optimizations I turn on.

    btw, the Amazon AWS UI uses YUI. I guess they do not know anything about
    web programming either.

    kt


    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jun 8, 2010
    #20
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