scrollbars: required standards or tradition?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by richard, Mar 29, 2009.

  1. richard

    richard Guest

    Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a
    fixed dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.

    I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    based languages?
     
    richard, Mar 29, 2009
    #1
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  2. richard

    richard Guest

    On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:52:47 -0500, Ben C <> wrote:

    >On 2009-03-29, richard <> wrote:
    >>
    >> Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a
    >> fixed dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.

    >
    >How did it look?
    >
    >> I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    >> scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    >> based languages?

    >
    >It's certainly not absolutely required, and can't be that pervasive a
    >tradition either as xterm has its scrollbar on the left.



    http://1littleworld.net/scroll1.jpg
     
    richard, Mar 29, 2009
    #2
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  3. richard

    C A Upsdell Guest

    richard wrote:
    > Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a
    > fixed dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.
    >
    > I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    > scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    > based languages?


    The left scroll bar will likely confuse users, making the site harder to
    use.
     
    C A Upsdell, Mar 29, 2009
    #3
  4. richard

    richard Guest

    On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:47:52 -0400, C A Upsdell
    <> wrote:

    >richard wrote:
    >> Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a
    >> fixed dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.
    >>
    >> I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    >> scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    >> based languages?

    >
    >The left scroll bar will likely confuse users, making the site harder to
    >use.



    Years ago during one superbowl there was an advertisement that
    appeared only once and changed the way things were done.

    People have been brainwashed into thinking that because it's always
    done that way, that is the only way it can be done.

    If one wants to advance technology, then one must think "outside of
    the box" instead of living within it.

    So are you a sheeple or a shepherd?
     
    richard, Mar 29, 2009
    #4
  5. richard

    asdf Guest

    "richard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:47:52 -0400, C A Upsdell
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>richard wrote:
    >>> Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a
    >>> fixed dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.
    >>>
    >>> I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    >>> scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    >>> based languages?

    >>
    >>The left scroll bar will likely confuse users, making the site harder to
    >>use.

    >
    >
    > Years ago during one superbowl there was an advertisement that
    > appeared only once and changed the way things were done.
    >
    > People have been brainwashed into thinking that because it's always
    > done that way, that is the only way it can be done.
    >
    > If one wants to advance technology, then one must think "outside of
    > the box" instead of living within it.
    >
    > So are you a sheeple or a shepherd?


    This shepherd has dressed in wolf's clothing methinks (to mess up an already
    horrible metaphor) :))

    A scrollbar moving from one side to another hardly advances technology. It
    provides no extra function or advantage, nor does it make any existing
    function better in way. Merely different. I guess there could be a case for
    moving it to the left if your site was only ever viewed by left-handers :D

    In order to argue the 'advancement of technology' line, one must provide
    proof, or at least *reason* for wanting to change an existing 'standard' way
    of doing things. One must have a rationale for change, not merely to make
    change for changes sake. To do otherwise is merely fashion or fad.

    Why go to the bother of presenting something to the user something that
    *looks* substantially different, when the thing does exactly the same
    things, in the same way, as the *old* thing - except of course you may have
    successfully confused, irritated and ultimately *lost* the viewer to another
    site?

    I've just had a great idea... why doesn't America change the traffic rules
    so they all drive on the left hand side of the road? Or perhaps we could
    change written English to read from right to left?

    The problem is, your example doesn't show evidence of thinking 'outside the
    box', you've just made a mirror image of the box. It's still functionally
    the same box.

    Try thinking outside the triangle, and maybe you'll come up with something
    worthwhile :))
     
    asdf, Mar 29, 2009
    #5
  6. richard

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    richard <> wrote:

    > Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a
    > fixed dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.
    >
    > I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    > scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    > based languages?


    Originally, it was proposed to have diagonal scrollbars, they were
    supposed to have a sort of vector function to operate both horizontally
    and vertically via the one bar. The software was brilliant and worked
    fine after it was discovered that there was an optimum shape to the bar:

    <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/wigglyscrolling.png>

    But the big drawback was that it blocked the view of the content.
    Various transparency tricks were used but the whole project ended in
    failure. It was moved to the traditional right and bottom.

    But I encourage you to experiment and shake up our well worn habits. I
    look to young exciting experimenters like you with your various projects
    to keep us all from going stale. Good on you, mate!

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Mar 29, 2009
    #6
  7. Troy Piggins wrote:

    > * richard wrote :
    >> Years ago during one superbowl there was an advertisement that
    >> appeared only once and changed the way things were done.


    Which one was that?

    >> People have been brainwashed into thinking that because it's always
    >> done that way, that is the only way it can be done.


    Brainwashed? Oh, the Mac parody of "1984?" That certainly has been
    shown more than once.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8

    > Just curious. Why did you even ask for opinions if you respond
    > like that when someone gives you theirs?


    He's RtS, and his response is "par for the course." His course, of
    course.

    --
    -bts
    -Friends don't let friends drive Windows
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Mar 29, 2009
    #7
  8. asdf wrote:

    > .. I've just had a great idea... why doesn't America change the
    > traffic rules so they all drive on the left hand side of the road?


    Ha! You beat me to it. I was going to suggest RtS put his users in
    British cars on his American roads (right-hand steering on right-side
    roads). I can just envision the piles of smashed minivans and soccer
    moms at all the intersections...

    Why screw with the users just because you can?

    --
    -bts
    -Friends don't let friends drive Windows
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Mar 29, 2009
    #8
  9. richard

    richard Guest

    Just for you since you're to young to know about it.
    The opening scene showed a very large group of people sitting in front
    of a huge tv screen. All looked alike, dressed alike and sat there
    with blank stares. Mostly the scene appeared in black and white.
    Then in comes this gal wearing an athletic outfit, looking like she
    had just finished a hearty workout, and in her hand was a huge hammer,
    of which she threw at the tv screen which broke it.

    In simpler terms, "It's time to break the long over used mold and get
    on with something new".
    Since it aired that one time, many things and the way things were done
    were changed.
     
    richard, Mar 29, 2009
    #9
  10. richard

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "richard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:47:52 -0400, C A Upsdell
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>richard wrote:
    >>> Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a
    >>> fixed dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.
    >>>
    >>> I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    >>> scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    >>> based languages?

    >>
    >>The left scroll bar will likely confuse users, making the site harder to
    >>use.

    >
    >
    > Years ago during one superbowl there was an advertisement that
    > appeared only once and changed the way things were done.
    >
    > People have been brainwashed into thinking that because it's always
    > done that way, that is the only way it can be done.
    >
    > If one wants to advance technology, then one must think "outside of
    > the box" instead of living within it.
    >
    > So are you a sheeple or a shepherd?


    Yes, all those usability experts who have conducted years of research and
    indepth study into user interfaces are just sheep blindly following trends.

    Interface elements should be consistent and predictable.

    /thread
     
    Nik Coughlin, Mar 29, 2009
    #10
  11. richard

    rf Guest

    Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    > asdf wrote:
    >
    >> .. I've just had a great idea... why doesn't America change the
    >> traffic rules so they all drive on the left hand side of the road?

    >
    > Ha! You beat me to it. I was going to suggest RtS put his users in
    > British cars on his American roads (right-hand steering on right-side
    > roads). I can just envision the piles of smashed minivans and soccer
    > moms at all the intersections...



    New Zealand is considering changing from driving on the left to driving on
    the right, as a courtesy to all the European and American trourists who
    visit there and spend lots of money.

    They are starting with just buses and trucks as a trial.

    > Why screw with the users just because you can?


    If somebody, anybody, anywhere provides some option that helps to convuse
    users then somebody, somewhere, will use that option to confuse their users.
    RtS has just proved this.
     
    rf, Mar 30, 2009
    #11
  12. richard wrote:

    > Just for you since you're to [sic] young to know about it.


    <LOL!> Son, I was around when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. I saw
    the commercial live during the game.

    > The opening scene showed a very large group of people sitting in front
    > of a huge tv screen. All looked alike, dressed alike and sat there
    > with blank stares. Mostly the scene appeared in black and white. Then
    > in comes this gal wearing an athletic outfit, looking like she had
    > just finished a hearty workout, and in her hand was a huge hammer, of
    > which she threw at the tv screen which broke it.


    Yeah, exactly like the youtube link I gave you. Did you miss that?

    > In simpler terms, "It's time to break the long over used mold and get
    > on with something new". Since it aired that one time, many things and
    > the way things were done were changed.


    As I recall, the commercial was shown on air numerous additional times.
    Not counting recent "best of superbowl ads" programs.

    --
    -bts
    -Friends don't let friends drive Windows
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Mar 30, 2009
    #12
  13. rf wrote:

    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >> asdf wrote:
    >>> .. I've just had a great idea... why doesn't America change the
    >>> traffic rules so they all drive on the left hand side of the road?

    >>
    >> Ha! You beat me to it. I was going to suggest RtS put his users in
    >> British cars on his American roads (right-hand steering on
    >> right-side roads). I can just envision the piles of smashed minivans
    >> and soccer moms at all the intersections...

    >
    > New Zealand is considering changing from driving on the left to
    > driving on the right, as a courtesy to all the European and American
    > trourists who visit there and spend lots of money.


    Like Sweden did a number of years ago...

    > They are starting with just buses and trucks as a trial.


    <lol!> Cute!

    >> Why screw with the users just because you can?

    >
    > If somebody, anybody, anywhere provides some option that helps to
    > convuse users then somebody, somewhere, will use that option to
    > confuse their users. RtS has just proved this.


    He found an option in his RunBasic and couldn't resist.

    --
    -bts
    -Friends don't let friends drive Windows
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Mar 30, 2009
    #13
  14. While the city slept, Beauregard T. Shagnasty feverishly typed:

    > Ha! You beat me to it. I was going to suggest RtS put his users in
    > British cars on his American roads (right-hand steering on right-side
    > roads). I can just envision the piles of smashed minivans and soccer
    > moms at all the intersections...


    And add into that, the other standard feature of a British (or pretty much
    any other non-American) car - the gearstick and clutch combination. :)

    > Why screw with the users just because you can?


    Precisely!

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss | http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Email not valid. - take the dog out!
    "You're mother ate my dog!", "Not all of him..."
     
    nice.guy.nige, Mar 30, 2009
    #14
  15. nice.guy.nige wrote:

    > While the city slept, Beauregard T. Shagnasty feverishly typed:
    >> Ha! You beat me to it. I was going to suggest RtS put his users in
    >> British cars on his American roads (right-hand steering on
    >> right-side roads). I can just envision the piles of smashed minivans
    >> and soccer moms at all the intersections...

    >
    > And add into that, the other standard feature of a British (or pretty
    > much any other non-American) car - the gearstick and clutch
    > combination. :)


    In right-hand drive cars, don't you use your left foot for the
    accelerator and the right foot for the brake? <wink>

    >> Why screw with the users just because you can?

    >
    > Precisely!


    Blame the author of RunBasic for providing the option... else RtS would
    have never thought of it. But he's a sheeple, so he used it.

    --
    -bts
    -Friends don't let friends drive Windows
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Mar 30, 2009
    #15
  16. While the city slept, Beauregard T. Shagnasty feverishly typed:

    > Brainwashed? Oh, the Mac parody of "1984?" That certainly has been
    > shown more than once.
    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8


    Ah yes, I remember this advert from my much younger years. I remember it
    airing many times, over here in the UK and being quite impressed by it. It
    wasn't - however - (as the OP attests) some kind of groundbreaking leftfield
    concept that "couldn't possibly work in the way we do things", there were
    plenty of adverts at the time which did far more outrageous things than
    parody a film... ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss | http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Email not valid. - take the dog out!
    "You're mother ate my dog!", "Not all of him..."
     
    nice.guy.nige, Mar 30, 2009
    #16
  17. richard

    Neredbojias Guest

    On 29 Mar 2009, "rf" <> wrote:

    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >> asdf wrote:
    >>
    >>> .. I've just had a great idea... why doesn't America change the
    >>> traffic rules so they all drive on the left hand side of the road?

    >>
    >> Ha! You beat me to it. I was going to suggest RtS put his users in
    >> British cars on his American roads (right-hand steering on
    >> right-side roads). I can just envision the piles of smashed minivans
    >> and soccer moms at all the intersections...

    >
    >
    > New Zealand is considering changing from driving on the left to
    > driving on the right, as a courtesy to all the European and American
    > trourists who visit there and spend lots of money.
    >
    > They are starting with just buses and trucks as a trial.


    Oh? New Zealand's a favorite teamster spot, huh?

    --
    Neredbojias
    People who live in glass houses must feel funny peeing.
    http://www.neredbojias.org/
    http://www.neredbojias.net/
     
    Neredbojias, Mar 30, 2009
    #17
  18. While the city slept, Beauregard T. Shagnasty feverishly typed:

    > In right-hand drive cars, don't you use your left foot for the
    > accelerator and the right foot for the brake? <wink>


    Depends if you are desparate for the toilet or not! ;-)

    >>> Why screw with the users just because you can?

    >>
    >> Precisely!

    >
    > Blame the author of RunBasic for providing the option... else RtS
    > would have never thought of it. But he's a sheeple, so he used it.


    :) Will "sheeple" be entering the alt.html lexicon, alongside "proffesional
    web dresigner"? ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss | http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Email not valid. - take the dog out!
    "You're mother ate my dog!", "Not all of him..."
     
    nice.guy.nige, Mar 30, 2009
    #18
  19. richard

    freemont Guest

    On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:48:34 +1100, dorayme writ:

    > In article <>,
    > richard <> wrote:
    >
    >> Just to see how it would look, I tried putting the scrollbar of a fixed
    >> dimension division on the left, rather than the default right.
    >>
    >> I was wondering, is it more of a tradition to have only a right side
    >> scrollbar, as opposed to left, or is it absolutely required in Latin
    >> based languages?

    >
    > Originally, it was proposed to have diagonal scrollbars, they were
    > supposed to have a sort of vector function to operate both horizontally
    > and vertically via the one bar. The software was brilliant and worked
    > fine after it was discovered that there was an optimum shape to the bar:
    >
    > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/wigglyscrolling.png>


    lol! Niiiice one.

    > But the big drawback was that it blocked the view of the content.
    > Various transparency tricks were used but the whole project ended in
    > failure. It was moved to the traditional right and bottom.
    >
    > But I encourage you to experiment and shake up our well worn habits. I
    > look to young exciting experimenters like you with your various projects
    > to keep us all from going stale. Good on you, mate!


    He also plans to require right-button clicks and to use right-to-left
    text. !gnihtyreve egnahc ll'tI
    --
    "Because all you of Earth are idiots!"
    ¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·-> freemont© <-·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯
     
    freemont, Mar 30, 2009
    #19
  20. richard

    dorayme Guest

    In article <db410$49d00668$ae83115c$>,
    freemont <> wrote:

    > He also plans to require right-button clicks and to use right-to-left
    > text. !gnihtyreve egnahc ll'tI


    Ah now... left to right text... no, Richard would not go that far. That
    is messing with content, not just style, or is it?

    Would the spooky real content somehow *really* be there somehow:

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
    <title>The Fox</title>
    <style type="text/css" media="screen">
    body {direction: rtl;}
    p {unicode-bidi: bidi-override;}
    </style>
    </head>
    <body>
    <p>The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog</p>
    </body>
    </html>

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Mar 30, 2009
    #20
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