So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?

Discussion in 'Java' started by JavaJunkie, Jan 24, 2004.

  1. JavaJunkie

    JavaJunkie Guest

    When I got the following posting on Monster.com I almost puked.
    See http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=20663147

    They want candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC
    (Regional Engineering College). So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?

    ------------------------

    Job Description

    5+ years in C++, Unix, Java, Swing, JSP, Servlets, RDBMS (Oracle or
    Informix) development
    Candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC (Regional
    Engineering College) would be preferred!!
    Telecom Background is a MUST
    Excellent Communication Skills

    Interested candidates please send their resumes immediately.
    JavaJunkie, Jan 24, 2004
    #1
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  2. JavaJunkie

    Anthony P. Guest

    "JavaJunkie" <> wrote in message
    news:8ZoQb.102002$...
    > When I got the following posting on Monster.com I almost puked.
    > See http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=20663147
    >
    > They want candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC
    > (Regional Engineering College). So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?


    Nope! Neither is Cornell, Harvard, or Yale. Those of us who were lucky
    enough to graduate from one of these schools simply aren't willing to work
    for the lower wages these employers seek. ITT gives a good education and
    prepares their students for work in the U.S. at discount rates. Can't beat
    that with an MIT degree :)

    Anthony
    Anthony P., Jan 24, 2004
    #2
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  3. JavaJunkie

    Berlin Brown Guest

    Anthony P. wrote:
    > "JavaJunkie" <> wrote in message
    > news:8ZoQb.102002$...
    >
    >>When I got the following posting on Monster.com I almost puked.
    >>See http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=20663147
    >>
    >>They want candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC
    >>(Regional Engineering College). So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?

    >
    >
    > Nope! Neither is Cornell, Harvard, or Yale. Those of us who were lucky
    > enough to graduate from one of these schools simply aren't willing to work
    > for the lower wages these employers seek. ITT gives a good education and
    > prepares their students for work in the U.S. at discount rates. Can't beat
    > that with an MIT degree :)
    >
    > Anthony
    >
    >


    I always feel, that your ability to produce is what should get you a job
    , maybe I am wrong. If a programmer gives the impression that he can
    produce and he is 17, he should probably be hired. Or does going to MIT
    gurantee brilliance?
    Berlin Brown, Jan 24, 2004
    #3
  4. In message <>, Berlin Brown
    <> writes
    >I always feel, that your ability to produce is what should get you a job
    >, maybe I am wrong.


    Most likely correct, how do then explain why software is such an ageist
    industry? Surely the older amongst the software profession have more
    design and implementation experience and will be less likely to fall
    into the software traps the less experienced (for example, your 17 year
    old) will fall into. Surely this will then reduce costs and result in
    the project being delivered more closely to schedule than if you need to
    rework the parts that failed to due to inexperience.

    To go back to my original question: how do then explain why software is
    such an ageist industry? The answer is simple - the industry doesn't
    care about quality - it cares about perceived low cost (provided by
    hiring cheap, inexperienced labour) rather than real low cost. The real
    low cost is a job done well with high quality - so that there are no
    maintenance headaches and recurring costs. You cannot guarantee this at
    all with an inexperience team - you stand a much higher chance with an
    experienced team.

    A few years ago I worked with an outstanding CAD company. Very high
    quality standards, you name it, they were on the ball. They had a policy
    of not hiring anyone without X years experience - in other words the
    opposite of the rest of the software industry. The hired people from all
    over the world, regardless of educational background, creed or race.
    They hired on ability and experience. They lead their market sector and
    recently were voted as one of the worlds 500 fastest growing companies
    (I don't know what their rank was). Interestingly they had a lot of
    staff over 40. CAD is a complicated business and the good CAD people
    have been doing it a long time. This, in an industry where 25 is
    considered over-the-hill.

    Suffice to say, your 17 year old would not be hired by them. After he
    has been to university and got some real-world experience, they may look
    at him when he is 25 or so.

    I started coding when I was in my teens, I thought I was the world's
    best software cracker/hacker (on my Vic-20/C-64) etc. I was wrong. Just
    like all the current teenagers that think that. I was good - but there
    is so much more to learn that you cannot learn until you enter the
    industry and get problems you'd never have thought of thrown at you, and
    meet other people with a different take on the same problem.

    Anyway, this turned out different to my anticipated short answer, so
    I'll leave it there.

    Stephen
    --
    Stephen Kellett
    Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
    RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html
    Stephen Kellett, Jan 24, 2004
    #4
  5. JavaJunkie

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    Berlin Brown wrote:
    > Anthony P. wrote:
    >> "JavaJunkie" <> wrote in message
    >> news:8ZoQb.102002$...
    >>
    >>> When I got the following posting on Monster.com I almost puked.
    >>> See http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=20663147
    >>>
    >>> They want candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC
    >>> (Regional Engineering College). So I guess MIT is not good enough
    >>> anymore?

    >>
    >>
    >> Nope! Neither is Cornell, Harvard, or Yale. Those of us who were
    >> lucky enough to graduate from one of these schools simply aren't
    >> willing to work for the lower wages these employers seek. ITT gives
    >> a good education and prepares their students for work in the U.S. at
    >> discount rates. Can't beat that with an MIT degree :)
    >>
    >> Anthony
    >>
    >>

    >
    > I always feel, that your ability to produce is what should get you a
    > job , maybe I am wrong. If a programmer gives the impression that he
    > can produce and he is 17, he should probably be hired. Or does going
    > to MIT gurantee brilliance?


    If he's 17 and can produce like that already, he shouldn't be wasting his talent
    working for your dumb company. He ought to be pushing the limits of computer
    science at MIT.

    Matt O.
    Matt O'Toole, Jan 24, 2004
    #5
  6. JavaJunkie

    JavaJunkie Guest

    Let me tell you something. I live in Florida and when I see people picking
    oranges and strawberries, I notice they are all exclusively Central-American
    immigrants (Mexicans etc). Not because these are jobs American don't want,
    it's because these immigrants will work harder for less money and are
    exclusively hired for these jobs.

    In IT, I see the same trend, except they are H1-B Indians. I have nothing
    against them as I have nothing against any culture, but it bothers me when
    the last 8 java programmers hired at my job are all exclusively H-1B
    Indians. And all the candidates I saw come in to interview were ALL INDIANS!
    Never did I see any locals interviewed. Where are the American programmers?

    So when I see headhunters looking exclusively for candidates who studied at
    Indian Inst. of technology, I can't keep quiet. Employers like these people
    because the work late into the night, weekends and work hard to send their
    money back to family in India. Yet I try to interview for these jobs and I
    get shot down because I'm an American who questions and objects, and
    probably won't work late at night and weekends.

    As a programmer I guess I have no choice then to go to ITT, get a degree so
    an American company can hire me. Hey I may even change my name to an Indian
    sounding one so my resume get considered more.


    "JavaJunkie" <> wrote in message
    news:8ZoQb.102002$...
    > When I got the following posting on Monster.com I almost puked.
    > See http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=20663147
    >
    > They want candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC
    > (Regional Engineering College). So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?
    >
    > ------------------------
    >
    > Job Description
    >
    > 5+ years in C++, Unix, Java, Swing, JSP, Servlets, RDBMS (Oracle or
    > Informix) development
    > Candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC (Regional
    > Engineering College) would be preferred!!
    > Telecom Background is a MUST
    > Excellent Communication Skills
    >
    > Interested candidates please send their resumes immediately.
    >
    >
    >
    JavaJunkie, Jan 24, 2004
    #6
  7. >
    > As a programmer I guess I have no choice then to go to ITT, get a degree

    so
    > an American company can hire me. Hey I may even change my name to an

    Indian
    > sounding one so my resume get considered more.
    >


    How about just putting in the hours and working like they do? :>
    Hacker Beware, Jan 25, 2004
    #7
  8. JavaJunkie

    JavaJunkie Guest

    I do put the same hours and more, but if I get laid off because my position
    gets outsourced to India, then I'll have a hard time getting another job
    because I don't have a degree from Indian Institute of Technology.


    "Hacker Beware" <> wrote in message
    news:4013656f$0$23954$...
    > >
    > > As a programmer I guess I have no choice then to go to ITT, get a degree

    > so
    > > an American company can hire me. Hey I may even change my name to an

    > Indian
    > > sounding one so my resume get considered more.
    > >

    >
    > How about just putting in the hours and working like they do? :>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    JavaJunkie, Jan 25, 2004
    #8
  9. JavaJunkie

    Arun Guest

    Dude,

    Notice the name of the "recruiter". I'll bet its a Indian company
    based in Florida for some local operations (read maintanence) or its
    most probably a contracter.

    In anycase you dont want to work for either.
    I'm a Indian :) and I've seen this sort of dungheap before.

    I hear that Raytheon in CA and most defense contracters are hiring.
    And ofcourse they'll hire only citizens. So look around! Why even IBM
    says its gonna hire 5000 people in the US.

    And yeah, Harvard/MIT/Yale/etc have reputations that'll open doors
    anywhere in the world. But no degree will help if you can hire a
    programmer for $500-800 a month half-way-across-the-globe. Not in this
    economy.
    Arun, Jan 25, 2004
    #9
  10. JavaJunkie

    Yoyoma_2 Guest

    JavaJunkie wrote:

    > I do put the same hours and more, but if I get laid off because my position
    > gets outsourced to India, then I'll have a hard time getting another job
    > because I don't have a degree from Indian Institute of Technology.


    The alternative is to go to Canada. Universities in Canada (and Texas
    if I remember) offer a Software Engineering program that is pretty
    unique. If your state sees it this way, with a Software Engineering
    B.Eng, you are able to certify softwares like a civil engineer would
    certify Buildings and Bridges.

    Also Engineering, as opposed to comp sci, will give you a background in
    many other fields(such as Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering,
    Mechanical Engineering, Physics, Modern Physics).

    But this is only if your state (i assume you are from the US) sees that
    software engineers can become engineers.

    I'me at a good program here in software engineering. Top 50 in north
    america. Try http://www.lakeheadu.ca/~engwww/soft ...

    The way i see it, if the softawre you work on is being outsourced to
    india then it's not critical enough (Because companies like to have
    legal repercussions if something goes wrong, and international lawsuits
    are almost impossible to prosecute). Meaning that maby an engineering
    degree is for you (especially if you want to live in texas or canada).

    >
    >
    > "Hacker Beware" <> wrote in message
    > news:4013656f$0$23954$...
    >
    >>>As a programmer I guess I have no choice then to go to ITT, get a degree

    >>
    >>so
    >>
    >>>an American company can hire me. Hey I may even change my name to an

    >>
    >>Indian
    >>
    >>>sounding one so my resume get considered more.
    >>>

    >>
    >>How about just putting in the hours and working like they do? :>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Yoyoma_2, Jan 25, 2004
    #10
  11. JavaJunkie

    Yoyoma_2 Guest

    Yoyoma_2 wrote:

    Oh I forgot to say. The link i sent you is for a university in Thunder
    Bay (1.5 hours from Deluth MN. ) It's a small worker-type town so the
    cost of living is dirt cheap.
    1$ CAD = 0.76$ USD

    For a citizen the tuition is 4800$ a year but for a non-citizen its 9000
    $ but there are 1000$ return bursaries etc... (Uni's in canada are
    heavily subsidised by the governments, that's why its cheaper).

    But your things around this are cheaper too. I live in a 3-bedroom
    townhouse which i rent for 700$/mo. Electricity is 100$ a month and gas
    is around 120$ a month but it varies.

    Because its a worker-type town, most of the things around town aren't
    that expensive. Ex: A movie is 7$.

    And also because its a simpler town, you won't be tempted as much to go
    do things as you would living in another city, Thereby you can study
    more :)

    If you have work experience or any type of paper you could apply to get
    into 4th year of engineering (out of a 5-year program). Poeple rarly do
    it in 2 years though because a 7 engineering courses a semester load is
    too heavy. But it's an idea.

    For me it really helped with my mathematics and sciences. Since i was
    basically in the same boat as you. What makes me so unique vs another
    applicant? Well now at least i have the edge because i:

    1) After i get my P.Eng, i can certify software. That's a huge selling
    point for poeple who wnat to build software. Not necessarly that you
    will certify, but that you can.

    2) Gives a better background in math, sciences, thermodynamics,
    electrical engineering, chemestry, physics, civil engineering,
    mechanical engineering... That's something most Comp Sci graduates
    don't have.

    3) Because you have worked before, being a new grad in this brand-new
    field with work experience gives you an edge over everyone else.
    Lets say because the programs were made, ex, 7 years ago. That means
    that the first poeple that graduated were done 2 years ago. And only
    have 2 years of experience. Something to keep in mind.



    > JavaJunkie wrote:
    >
    >> I do put the same hours and more, but if I get laid off because my
    >> position
    >> gets outsourced to India, then I'll have a hard time getting another job
    >> because I don't have a degree from Indian Institute of Technology.

    >
    >
    > The alternative is to go to Canada. Universities in Canada (and Texas
    > if I remember) offer a Software Engineering program that is pretty
    > unique. If your state sees it this way, with a Software Engineering
    > B.Eng, you are able to certify softwares like a civil engineer would
    > certify Buildings and Bridges.
    >
    > Also Engineering, as opposed to comp sci, will give you a background in
    > many other fields(such as Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering,
    > Mechanical Engineering, Physics, Modern Physics).
    >
    > But this is only if your state (i assume you are from the US) sees that
    > software engineers can become engineers.
    >
    > I'me at a good program here in software engineering. Top 50 in north
    > america. Try http://www.lakeheadu.ca/~engwww/soft ...
    >
    > The way i see it, if the softawre you work on is being outsourced to
    > india then it's not critical enough (Because companies like to have
    > legal repercussions if something goes wrong, and international lawsuits
    > are almost impossible to prosecute). Meaning that maby an engineering
    > degree is for you (especially if you want to live in texas or canada).
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> "Hacker Beware" <> wrote in message
    >> news:4013656f$0$23954$...
    >>
    >>>> As a programmer I guess I have no choice then to go to ITT, get a
    >>>> degree
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> so
    >>>
    >>>> an American company can hire me. Hey I may even change my name to an
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Indian
    >>>
    >>>> sounding one so my resume get considered more.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> How about just putting in the hours and working like they do? :>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    Yoyoma_2, Jan 25, 2004
    #11
  12. JavaJunkie

    Eric Sosman Guest

    JavaJunkie wrote:
    >
    > Let me tell you something. I live in Florida and when I see people picking
    > oranges and strawberries, I notice they are all exclusively Central-American
    > immigrants (Mexicans etc).


    When I hired programmers (I'm not doing so in my current
    position), I looked principally for evidence of technical ability,
    expertise, talent, and problem-solving capacity. But I also took
    into account secondary matters, like a well-stocked fund of general
    miscellaneous knowledge. While it was unlikely that anyone's
    enthusiasm for bird-watching, say, or Glück operas would markedly
    affect his or her success in the endeavors at hand, I always thought
    it a danger sign if the candidate was over-absorbed in what is,
    after all, a limited specialization. Sherlock Holmes affected
    ignorance as to whether the Earth orbited the Sun or vice versa,
    because the answer had no bearing on his work. IMHO (and when I'm
    the interviewer, MHO counts for a lot), this would have amounted
    to a strong suggestion that S.H. would make a lousy programmer.

    Therefore, JavaJunkie, I suggest you consult a map. You will
    discover that Mexico is in North America -- indeed, you will learn
    that all parts of your state of Florida are more southerly than
    some parts of Mexico. Who knows? Someday I might find myself
    hiring programmers again, and if we run into each other I'm sure
    to be impressed by your grasp of geography.

    Once again: Mexico is not in Central America. You were
    probably thinking of New Zealand ;-)

    --
    Eric Sosman, Feb 3, 2004
    #12
  13. JavaJunkie

    JavaJunkie Guest

    Eric Sosman,

    You are correct. Mexico is not part of Central America. Something I never
    realized until today as I assumed the boundaries to start in Mexico and end
    in Panama.

    What you may not know is that I indeeed do have a very good grasp of
    geography. I happen to be a licensed amateur radio operator who has spoken
    to other ham radio stations in over 150 countries. That forces me to have a
    map on the wall and even own a great software called DXAtlas
    (http://www.dxatlas.com) that allows me to have a 3D view of the globe on my
    PC.

    But I slipped when I included Mexico in my comments, showing (apparently)
    that I'm a dumbass by not knowing this about Central America.


    "Eric Sosman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    JavaJunkie wrote:
    >
    > Let me tell you something. I live in Florida and when I see people picking
    > oranges and strawberries, I notice they are all exclusively

    Central-American
    > immigrants (Mexicans etc).


    When I hired programmers (I'm not doing so in my current
    position), I looked principally for evidence of technical ability,
    expertise, talent, and problem-solving capacity. But I also took
    into account secondary matters, like a well-stocked fund of general
    miscellaneous knowledge. While it was unlikely that anyone's
    enthusiasm for bird-watching, say, or Glück operas would markedly
    affect his or her success in the endeavors at hand, I always thought
    it a danger sign if the candidate was over-absorbed in what is,
    after all, a limited specialization. Sherlock Holmes affected
    ignorance as to whether the Earth orbited the Sun or vice versa,
    because the answer had no bearing on his work. IMHO (and when I'm
    the interviewer, MHO counts for a lot), this would have amounted
    to a strong suggestion that S.H. would make a lousy programmer.

    Therefore, JavaJunkie, I suggest you consult a map. You will
    discover that Mexico is in North America -- indeed, you will learn
    that all parts of your state of Florida are more southerly than
    some parts of Mexico. Who knows? Someday I might find myself
    hiring programmers again, and if we run into each other I'm sure
    to be impressed by your grasp of geography.

    Once again: Mexico is not in Central America. You were
    probably thinking of New Zealand ;-)

    --
    JavaJunkie, Feb 4, 2004
    #13
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