So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?

[JavaJunkie]

When I got the following posting on Monster.com I almost puked.
See http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=20663147

They want candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC
(Regional Engineering College). So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?

------------------------

Job Description

5+ years in C++, Unix, Java, Swing, JSP, Servlets, RDBMS (Oracle or
Informix) development
Candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC (Regional
Engineering College) would be preferred!!
Telecom Background is a MUST
Excellent Communication Skills

Interested candidates please send their resumes immediately.

 

[Anthony P.]

When I got the following posting on Monster.com I almost puked.
See http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=20663147

They want candidates from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) / REC
(Regional Engineering College). So I guess MIT is not good enough anymore?

Nope! Neither is Cornell, Harvard, or Yale. Those of us who were lucky
enough to graduate from one of these schools simply aren't willing to work
for the lower wages these employers seek. ITT gives a good education and
prepares their students for work in the U.S. at discount rates. Can't beat
that with an MIT degree

Anthony

 

[Berlin Brown]

Nope! Neither is Cornell, Harvard, or Yale. Those of us who were lucky
enough to graduate from one of these schools simply aren't willing to work
for the lower wages these employers seek. ITT gives a good education and
prepares their students for work in the U.S. at discount rates. Can't beat
that with an MIT degree

Anthony

I always feel, that your ability to produce is what should get you a job
, maybe I am wrong. If a programmer gives the impression that he can
produce and he is 17, he should probably be hired. Or does going to MIT
gurantee brilliance?

 

[Stephen Kellett]

I always feel, that your ability to produce is what should get you a job
, maybe I am wrong.

Most likely correct, how do then explain why software is such an ageist
industry? Surely the older amongst the software profession have more
design and implementation experience and will be less likely to fall
into the software traps the less experienced (for example, your 17 year
old) will fall into. Surely this will then reduce costs and result in
the project being delivered more closely to schedule than if you need to
rework the parts that failed to due to inexperience.

To go back to my original question: how do then explain why software is
such an ageist industry? The answer is simple - the industry doesn't
care about quality - it cares about perceived low cost (provided by
hiring cheap, inexperienced labour) rather than real low cost. The real
low cost is a job done well with high quality - so that there are no
maintenance headaches and recurring costs. You cannot guarantee this at
all with an inexperience team - you stand a much higher chance with an
experienced team.

A few years ago I worked with an outstanding CAD company. Very high
quality standards, you name it, they were on the ball. They had a policy
of not hiring anyone without X years experience - in other words the
opposite of the rest of the software industry. The hired people from all
over the world, regardless of educational background, creed or race.
They hired on ability and experience. They lead their market sector and
recently were voted as one of the worlds 500 fastest growing companies
(I don't know what their rank was). Interestingly they had a lot of
staff over 40. CAD is a complicated business and the good CAD people
have been doing it a long time. This, in an industry where 25 is
considered over-the-hill.

Suffice to say, your 17 year old would not be hired by them. After he
has been to university and got some real-world experience, they may look
at him when he is 25 or so.

I started coding when I was in my teens, I thought I was the world's
best software cracker/hacker (on my Vic-20/C-64) etc. I was wrong. Just
like all the current teenagers that think that. I was good - but there
is so much more to learn that you cannot learn until you enter the
industry and get problems you'd never have thought of thrown at you, and
meet other people with a different take on the same problem.

Anyway, this turned out different to my anticipated short answer, so
I'll leave it there.

Stephen

 

[Matt O'Toole]

I always feel, that your ability to produce is what should get you a
job , maybe I am wrong. If a programmer gives the impression that he
can produce and he is 17, he should probably be hired. Or does going
to MIT gurantee brilliance?

If he's 17 and can produce like that already, he shouldn't be wasting his talent
working for your dumb company. He ought to be pushing the limits of computer
science at MIT.

Matt O.

 

[JavaJunkie]

Let me tell you something. I live in Florida and when I see people picking
oranges and strawberries, I notice they are all exclusively Central-American
immigrants (Mexicans etc). Not because these are jobs American don't want,
it's because these immigrants will work harder for less money and are
exclusively hired for these jobs.

In IT, I see the same trend, except they are H1-B Indians. I have nothing
against them as I have nothing against any culture, but it bothers me when
the last 8 java programmers hired at my job are all exclusively H-1B
Indians. And all the candidates I saw come in to interview were ALL INDIANS!
Never did I see any locals interviewed. Where are the American programmers?

So when I see headhunters looking exclusively for candidates who studied at
Indian Inst. of technology, I can't keep quiet. Employers like these people
because the work late into the night, weekends and work hard to send their
money back to family in India. Yet I try to interview for these jobs and I
get shot down because I'm an American who questions and objects, and
probably won't work late at night and weekends.

As a programmer I guess I have no choice then to go to ITT, get a degree so
an American company can hire me. Hey I may even change my name to an Indian
sounding one so my resume get considered more.

 

[Hacker Beware]

As a programmer I guess I have no choice then to go to ITT, get a degree so
an American company can hire me. Hey I may even change my name to an Indian
sounding one so my resume get considered more.

How about just putting in the hours and working like they do? :>

 

[JavaJunkie]

I do put the same hours and more, but if I get laid off because my position
gets outsourced to India, then I'll have a hard time getting another job
because I don't have a degree from Indian Institute of Technology.

 

[Arun]

Dude,

Notice the name of the "recruiter". I'll bet its a Indian company
based in Florida for some local operations (read maintanence) or its
most probably a contracter.

In anycase you dont want to work for either.
I'm a Indian and I've seen this sort of dungheap before.

I hear that Raytheon in CA and most defense contracters are hiring.
And ofcourse they'll hire only citizens. So look around! Why even IBM
says its gonna hire 5000 people in the US.

And yeah, Harvard/MIT/Yale/etc have reputations that'll open doors
anywhere in the world. But no degree will help if you can hire a
programmer for $500-800 a month half-way-across-the-globe. Not in this
economy.

 

[Yoyoma_2]

I do put the same hours and more, but if I get laid off because my position
gets outsourced to India, then I'll have a hard time getting another job
because I don't have a degree from Indian Institute of Technology.

The alternative is to go to Canada. Universities in Canada (and Texas
if I remember) offer a Software Engineering program that is pretty
unique. If your state sees it this way, with a Software Engineering
B.Eng, you are able to certify softwares like a civil engineer would
certify Buildings and Bridges.

Also Engineering, as opposed to comp sci, will give you a background in
many other fields(such as Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering,
Mechanical Engineering, Physics, Modern Physics).

But this is only if your state (i assume you are from the US) sees that
software engineers can become engineers.

I'me at a good program here in software engineering. Top 50 in north
america. Try http://www.lakeheadu.ca/~engwww/soft ...

The way i see it, if the softawre you work on is being outsourced to
india then it's not critical enough (Because companies like to have
legal repercussions if something goes wrong, and international lawsuits
are almost impossible to prosecute). Meaning that maby an engineering
degree is for you (especially if you want to live in texas or canada).

 

[Yoyoma_2]

Yoyoma_2 wrote:

Oh I forgot to say. The link i sent you is for a university in Thunder
Bay (1.5 hours from Deluth MN. ) It's a small worker-type town so the
cost of living is dirt cheap.
1$ CAD = 0.76$ USD

For a citizen the tuition is 4800$ a year but for a non-citizen its 9000
$ but there are 1000$ return bursaries etc... (Uni's in canada are
heavily subsidised by the governments, that's why its cheaper).

But your things around this are cheaper too. I live in a 3-bedroom
townhouse which i rent for 700$/mo. Electricity is 100$ a month and gas
is around 120$ a month but it varies.

Because its a worker-type town, most of the things around town aren't
that expensive. Ex: A movie is 7$.

And also because its a simpler town, you won't be tempted as much to go
do things as you would living in another city, Thereby you can study
more

If you have work experience or any type of paper you could apply to get
into 4th year of engineering (out of a 5-year program). Poeple rarly do
it in 2 years though because a 7 engineering courses a semester load is
too heavy. But it's an idea.

For me it really helped with my mathematics and sciences. Since i was
basically in the same boat as you. What makes me so unique vs another
applicant? Well now at least i have the edge because i:

1) After i get my P.Eng, i can certify software. That's a huge selling
point for poeple who wnat to build software. Not necessarly that you
will certify, but that you can.

2) Gives a better background in math, sciences, thermodynamics,
electrical engineering, chemestry, physics, civil engineering,
mechanical engineering... That's something most Comp Sci graduates
don't have.

3) Because you have worked before, being a new grad in this brand-new
field with work experience gives you an edge over everyone else.
Lets say because the programs were made, ex, 7 years ago. That means
that the first poeple that graduated were done 2 years ago. And only
have 2 years of experience. Something to keep in mind.

 

[Eric Sosman]

Let me tell you something. I live in Florida and when I see people picking
oranges and strawberries, I notice they are all exclusively Central-American
immigrants (Mexicans etc).

When I hired programmers (I'm not doing so in my current
position), I looked principally for evidence of technical ability,
expertise, talent, and problem-solving capacity. But I also took
into account secondary matters, like a well-stocked fund of general
miscellaneous knowledge. While it was unlikely that anyone's
enthusiasm for bird-watching, say, or Glück operas would markedly
affect his or her success in the endeavors at hand, I always thought
it a danger sign if the candidate was over-absorbed in what is,
after all, a limited specialization. Sherlock Holmes affected
ignorance as to whether the Earth orbited the Sun or vice versa,
because the answer had no bearing on his work. IMHO (and when I'm
the interviewer, MHO counts for a lot), this would have amounted
to a strong suggestion that S.H. would make a lousy programmer.

Therefore, JavaJunkie, I suggest you consult a map. You will
discover that Mexico is in North America -- indeed, you will learn
that all parts of your state of Florida are more southerly than
some parts of Mexico. Who knows? Someday I might find myself
hiring programmers again, and if we run into each other I'm sure
to be impressed by your grasp of geography.

Once again: Mexico is not in Central America. You were
probably thinking of New Zealand ;-)

 

[JavaJunkie]

Eric Sosman,

You are correct. Mexico is not part of Central America. Something I never
realized until today as I assumed the boundaries to start in Mexico and end
in Panama.

What you may not know is that I indeeed do have a very good grasp of
geography. I happen to be a licensed amateur radio operator who has spoken
to other ham radio stations in over 150 countries. That forces me to have a
map on the wall and even own a great software called DXAtlas
(http://www.dxatlas.com) that allows me to have a 3D view of the globe on my
PC.

But I slipped when I included Mexico in my comments, showing (apparently)
that I'm a dumbass by not knowing this about Central America.

Let me tell you something. I live in Florida and when I see people picking
oranges and strawberries, I notice they are all exclusively Central-American
immigrants (Mexicans etc).

When I hired programmers (I'm not doing so in my current
position), I looked principally for evidence of technical ability,
expertise, talent, and problem-solving capacity. But I also took
into account secondary matters, like a well-stocked fund of general
miscellaneous knowledge. While it was unlikely that anyone's
enthusiasm for bird-watching, say, or Glück operas would markedly
affect his or her success in the endeavors at hand, I always thought
it a danger sign if the candidate was over-absorbed in what is,
after all, a limited specialization. Sherlock Holmes affected
ignorance as to whether the Earth orbited the Sun or vice versa,
because the answer had no bearing on his work. IMHO (and when I'm
the interviewer, MHO counts for a lot), this would have amounted
to a strong suggestion that S.H. would make a lousy programmer.

Therefore, JavaJunkie, I suggest you consult a map. You will
discover that Mexico is in North America -- indeed, you will learn
that all parts of your state of Florida are more southerly than
some parts of Mexico. Who knows? Someday I might find myself
hiring programmers again, and if we run into each other I'm sure
to be impressed by your grasp of geography.

Once again: Mexico is not in Central America. You were
probably thinking of New Zealand ;-)