standard IDE in python 3000 (or beyond)? *semi-newbie*

[mike kreiner]

Are there any plans for developing a standard IDE for python that's
included with the python installation? I found information about other
IDE's elsewhere online, but couldn't even find any mention of this
possibility.

I'm still relatively new to Python--I switched over from VB--and I
found it difficult to learn python without an IDE. Most experienced
programmers I know started out using Emacs or another text editor, and
are very happy with that; however, I found it difficult to put all the
pieces (like GUI, etc.) together myself. i tried many of the free IDEs,
but was dissatisfied (VS is tough to beat in my opinion, much better
than the average m$ application *plz don't flame*). although it'd be a
difficult undertaking, i think an IDE would be a tremendous boost for
python in terms of gaining support in education and the business
community. has anyone else discussed this? does anyone know the BDFL's
stance? thanks.

~mike

 

[Brendan Kohler]

Are there any plans for developing a standard IDE for python that's
included with the python installation? I found information about other
IDE's elsewhere online, but couldn't even find any mention of this
possibility.

I'm still relatively new to Python--I switched over from VB--and I
found it difficult to learn python without an IDE. Most experienced
programmers I know started out using Emacs or another text editor, and
are very happy with that; however, I found it difficult to put all the
pieces (like GUI, etc.) together myself. i tried many of the free IDEs,
but was dissatisfied (VS is tough to beat in my opinion, much better
than the average m$ application *plz don't flame*). although it'd be a
difficult undertaking, i think an IDE would be a tremendous boost for
python in terms of gaining support in education and the business
community. has anyone else discussed this? does anyone know the BDFL's
stance? thanks.

~mike

That would be something called IDLE, which is included with python already.

 

[Steve Holden]

That would be something called IDLE, which is included with python already.

With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as Visual
Studio to put a GUI-based application together.

To which I can only respond that it's obvious Microsoft haven't wasted
ALL the money they've spent on developemnt. VS *is* a tough act to beat,
though certainly not impossible.

I wish there *were* something equivalent. If Jim Hugunin can persuade
Microsoft to fully support Python in Visula Studio .NET they'd have at
least one more customer.

regards
Steve

 

[Aahz]

With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as Visual
Studio to put a GUI-based application together.

Should the Python community really care about this, I suspect Eclipse
might be the best way.

 

[Steve Holden]

Should the Python community really care about this, I suspect Eclipse
might be the best way.

If Eclipse really is the answer I'll have to learn more about it, but
from the little I know so far it seems like a very heavyweight solution.
Not that Visual Studio is becomingly trim, of course - it's a fine
example of bloatware, but it does do a useful job as a GUI builder.
Perhaps there's a lesson somewhere in there ...

regards
Steve

 

[mrkurt]

If Eclipse really is the answer I'll have to learn more about it, but
from the little I know so far it seems like a very heavyweight solution.
Not that Visual Studio is becomingly trim, of course - it's a fine
example of bloatware, but it does do a useful job as a GUI builder.
Perhaps there's a lesson somewhere in there ...

regards
Steve

About the closest thing to what Mike might want is Boa Constructor,
which does have a GUI building tool. It is not as polished as the
Visual Studio GUI builder, but there are a lot of controls there that
can be used. It requires the wxWindows toolkit.

BTW, has anyone used or tried WingIDE? It does look like a really
polished product.

--mrkurt

 

[mrkurt]

About the closest thing to what Mike might want is Boa Constructor,
which does have a GUI building tool. It is not as polished as the
Visual Studio GUI builder, but there are a lot of controls there that
can be used. It requires the wxWindows toolkit.

Some self-correction:
Sorry, I meant to call them "widgets", not "controls". And Boa
Constructor needs wxPython, which comes with wxWindows.

 

[Jorge Luiz Godoy Filho]

About the closest thing to what Mike might want is Boa Constructor,
which does have a GUI building tool. It is not as polished as the
Visual Studio GUI builder, but there are a lot of controls there that
can be used. It requires the wxWindows toolkit.

It has another advantage as well: it can be improved by *us*, the community.

I am looking at Eclipse for a while and it is interesting, but too heavy,
indeed.

 

[Steve Holden]

mrkurt wrote:

[...]

BTW, has anyone used or tried WingIDE? It does look like a really
polished product.

Yes, I'm a very happy WingIDE user. It has no GUI builder, but it's very
impressive in letting you debug windowed programs. Only yesterday I was
setting breakpoints in a PythonCard interface. Well worth the dosh, IMHO.

regards
Steve

 

[mike kreiner]

Thanks for all of your comments. I didn't intend for this to turn into
a "which IDE should I use?" posting, but everyone's comments gave me
food for thought all the same, and convinced me to try Eclipse and
WingIDE. Please forgive me for this lengthy explanation of my view.

Much of my original question deals with perception as well as actual
functionality. I am a mechanical engineering undergrad who has never
taken a computer science class. I've spent 3 summers programming in VB
for a large biomedical company, and have used Matlab extensively in
school. I've also used fortran and c++, although not nearly as much. I
was immediately blown away by the clarity and elegance of Python
syntax, which combined with rave testimonies all over the internet made
me pursue Python despite some early difficulties. The first python
program i tried to write was for my summer job. I wanted to compare two
ridiculously large sets of data (1 GB of scientific junk), and display
the differences between the sets in a nice grid. long story short i
wasted a few days trying to figure out GUI stuff, and ended up
programming it in VB. from this first experience i perceived python as
elegant but difficult to implement for real world programs. I kept on
pursuing python, still attracted to its elegance, and now i'm writing
code for independent research in python. I have a feeling though that
not many people would keep trying to learn python after such a setback.

Before posting this thread I had tried all the free python IDEs i could
find, as well as toyed around with kdevelop's python features. i hadn't
tried Eclipse, but in installing and looking over it today i'm
impressed. this may be what i wanted, despite the size. earlier i was
afraid to try the WingIDE trial for fear that i'd really love it, and
in a moment of weakness end up spending $200 i dont really have. i just
installed it however, and the screenshots and info online make it look
great as well. still not a solution to the original problem though,
because it ain't free. IDLE is about as basic an IDE as i can imagine.
it serves its role, however new python users won't be nearly impressed
with it as they are the language. i know the language is the most
important thing, however next on the list should be development tools.
ideally, after installing just python, people should be blown away by
the tools that simplify development as well as blown away by the
language itself. the total python experience should leave people
wondering "why didn't anyone think of that sooner?"

VS is a beast, and i'm not recommending something that huge go into the
standard install, but has anyone here used Matlab? The Matlab IDE is
intuitive and simple. it has a basic version of all the standard
goodies: GUI, debugging, etc. (no built-in source control though, you
have to integrate it w/ another system, which is easy as well). it has
the familiar prompt window we know and love, plus other windows for
browsing objects, files, etc. I just flat-out like it better than the
other python IDEs i've tried, which all seem to have one or two of the
basic things either absent or too complicated to figure out. A
Matlab-like IDE (or something similar) doesn't seem like a monumental
leap from IDLE, so why isn't more emphasis in python development put
into making the entire python experience "batteries included?"

 

[mike kreiner]

I should add that i mean no insult to the IDLE developers. they've done
a good job. it just seems that many people, after trying IDLE and being
unimpressed, decide to work on one of the myriad other open-source
python IDEs. i think we're all looking at python 3000 as being a huge
boost for python (comparable to Firefox's 1.0 release for example). the
ability to break backwards compatability makes me think 3000 can really
clean house for the language and win over many new converts as a huge
(and well publicized) step forward. i'm wondering if other people
believe one of the main keys to 3000's success is the default IDE. in
other words, why aren't more resources put into IDLE, instead of some
of the more specifc language tweaks?

~mike

 

[Bengt Richter]

With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as Visual
Studio to put a GUI-based application together.

To which I can only respond that it's obvious Microsoft haven't wasted
ALL the money they've spent on developemnt. VS *is* a tough act to beat,
though certainly not impossible.

IMO the GUI-building part was beaten before it even seriously existed, by Delphi.
I suspect that remains true, even though M$ enticed (.5 mega$ signing bonus rumored)
then-Borland's Delphi guru Anders Hejlsberg to work for them.
I guess it would have taken a Stallman to refuse ;-)

The machine-language debug windows you can get into with VS _are_ very nice if you
need to get down to that. They are better than what Delphi used to have IIRC
(at some version you had to throw a secret switch to turn on low level debugging, IIRC).
But for GUI building I think Delphi is the hard act to follow, with it's visual component
libraries that you and third parties can enhance. The project management stuff seemed to
me comparable.

I think there are Delphi/python projects, but I haven't pursued them.

I wish there *were* something equivalent. If Jim Hugunin can persuade
Microsoft to fully support Python in Visula Studio .NET they'd have at
least one more customer.

MSVS is very seductive. But so is open source independence ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter