standard IDE in python 3000 (or beyond)? *semi-newbie*

Discussion in 'Python' started by mike kreiner, Dec 30, 2004.

  1. mike kreiner

    mike kreiner Guest

    Are there any plans for developing a standard IDE for python that's
    included with the python installation? I found information about other
    IDE's elsewhere online, but couldn't even find any mention of this
    possibility.

    I'm still relatively new to Python--I switched over from VB--and I
    found it difficult to learn python without an IDE. Most experienced
    programmers I know started out using Emacs or another text editor, and
    are very happy with that; however, I found it difficult to put all the
    pieces (like GUI, etc.) together myself. i tried many of the free IDEs,
    but was dissatisfied (VS is tough to beat in my opinion, much better
    than the average m$ application *plz don't flame*). although it'd be a
    difficult undertaking, i think an IDE would be a tremendous boost for
    python in terms of gaining support in education and the business
    community. has anyone else discussed this? does anyone know the BDFL's
    stance? thanks.

    ~mike
     
    mike kreiner, Dec 30, 2004
    #1
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  2. "mike kreiner" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Are there any plans for developing a standard IDE for python that's
    > included with the python installation? I found information about other
    > IDE's elsewhere online, but couldn't even find any mention of this
    > possibility.
    >
    > I'm still relatively new to Python--I switched over from VB--and I
    > found it difficult to learn python without an IDE. Most experienced
    > programmers I know started out using Emacs or another text editor, and
    > are very happy with that; however, I found it difficult to put all the
    > pieces (like GUI, etc.) together myself. i tried many of the free IDEs,
    > but was dissatisfied (VS is tough to beat in my opinion, much better
    > than the average m$ application *plz don't flame*). although it'd be a
    > difficult undertaking, i think an IDE would be a tremendous boost for
    > python in terms of gaining support in education and the business
    > community. has anyone else discussed this? does anyone know the BDFL's
    > stance? thanks.
    >
    > ~mike
    >


    That would be something called IDLE, which is included with python already.
     
    Brendan Kohler, Dec 30, 2004
    #2
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  3. mike kreiner

    Steve Holden Guest

    Brendan Kohler wrote:

    > "mike kreiner" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>Are there any plans for developing a standard IDE for python that's
    >>included with the python installation? I found information about other
    >>IDE's elsewhere online, but couldn't even find any mention of this
    >>possibility.
    >>
    >>I'm still relatively new to Python--I switched over from VB--and I
    >>found it difficult to learn python without an IDE. Most experienced
    >>programmers I know started out using Emacs or another text editor, and
    >>are very happy with that; however, I found it difficult to put all the
    >>pieces (like GUI, etc.) together myself. i tried many of the free IDEs,
    >>but was dissatisfied (VS is tough to beat in my opinion, much better
    >>than the average m$ application *plz don't flame*). although it'd be a
    >>difficult undertaking, i think an IDE would be a tremendous boost for
    >>python in terms of gaining support in education and the business
    >>community. has anyone else discussed this? does anyone know the BDFL's
    >>stance? thanks.
    >>
    >>~mike
    >>

    >
    >
    > That would be something called IDLE, which is included with python already.
    >
    >

    With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
    think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as Visual
    Studio to put a GUI-based application together.

    To which I can only respond that it's obvious Microsoft haven't wasted
    ALL the money they've spent on developemnt. VS *is* a tough act to beat,
    though certainly not impossible.

    I wish there *were* something equivalent. If Jim Hugunin can persuade
    Microsoft to fully support Python in Visula Studio .NET they'd have at
    least one more customer.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
    Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
     
    Steve Holden, Dec 30, 2004
    #3
  4. mike kreiner

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    Steve Holden <> wrote:
    >
    >With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
    >think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as Visual
    >Studio to put a GUI-based application together.


    Should the Python community really care about this, I suspect Eclipse
    might be the best way.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
    is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis
     
    Aahz, Dec 30, 2004
    #4
  5. mike kreiner

    Steve Holden Guest

    Aahz wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Steve Holden <> wrote:
    >
    >>With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
    >>think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as Visual
    >>Studio to put a GUI-based application together.

    >
    >
    > Should the Python community really care about this, I suspect Eclipse
    > might be the best way.


    If Eclipse really is the answer I'll have to learn more about it, but
    from the little I know so far it seems like a very heavyweight solution.
    Not that Visual Studio is becomingly trim, of course - it's a fine
    example of bloatware, but it does do a useful job as a GUI builder.
    Perhaps there's a lesson somewhere in there ...

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
    Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
     
    Steve Holden, Dec 30, 2004
    #5
  6. mike kreiner

    mrkurt Guest

    Steve Holden wrote:
    > Aahz wrote:
    >
    >> In article <>,
    >> Steve Holden <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
    >>> think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as
    >>> Visual Studio to put a GUI-based application together.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Should the Python community really care about this, I suspect Eclipse
    >> might be the best way.

    >
    >
    > If Eclipse really is the answer I'll have to learn more about it, but
    > from the little I know so far it seems like a very heavyweight solution.
    > Not that Visual Studio is becomingly trim, of course - it's a fine
    > example of bloatware, but it does do a useful job as a GUI builder.
    > Perhaps there's a lesson somewhere in there ...
    >
    > regards
    > Steve

    About the closest thing to what Mike might want is Boa Constructor,
    which does have a GUI building tool. It is not as polished as the
    Visual Studio GUI builder, but there are a lot of controls there that
    can be used. It requires the wxWindows toolkit.

    BTW, has anyone used or tried WingIDE? It does look like a really
    polished product.

    --mrkurt
     
    mrkurt, Dec 30, 2004
    #6
  7. mike kreiner

    mrkurt Guest

    mrkurt wrote:

    > Steve Holden wrote:
    >
    >> Aahz wrote:
    >>
    >>> In article <>,
    >>> Steve Holden <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder.
    >>>> I think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as
    >>>> Visual Studio to put a GUI-based application together.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Should the Python community really care about this, I suspect Eclipse
    >>> might be the best way.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> If Eclipse really is the answer I'll have to learn more about it, but
    >> from the little I know so far it seems like a very heavyweight
    >> solution. Not that Visual Studio is becomingly trim, of course - it's
    >> a fine example of bloatware, but it does do a useful job as a GUI
    >> builder. Perhaps there's a lesson somewhere in there ...
    >>
    >> regards
    >> Steve

    >
    > About the closest thing to what Mike might want is Boa Constructor,
    > which does have a GUI building tool. It is not as polished as the
    > Visual Studio GUI builder, but there are a lot of controls there that
    > can be used. It requires the wxWindows toolkit.

    Some self-correction:
    Sorry, I meant to call them "widgets", not "controls". And Boa
    Constructor needs wxPython, which comes with wxWindows.
    >
    > BTW, has anyone used or tried WingIDE? It does look like a really
    > polished product.
    >
    > --mrkurt
     
    mrkurt, Dec 30, 2004
    #7
  8. mrkurt, Quinta 30 Dezembro 2004 14:39, wrote:

    > About the closest thing to what Mike might want is Boa Constructor,
    > which does have a GUI building tool. It is not as polished as the
    > Visual Studio GUI builder, but there are a lot of controls there that
    > can be used. It requires the wxWindows toolkit.


    It has another advantage as well: it can be improved by *us*, the community.

    I am looking at Eclipse for a while and it is interesting, but too heavy,
    indeed.


    --
    Godoy. <>
     
    Jorge Luiz Godoy Filho, Dec 30, 2004
    #8
  9. mike kreiner

    Steve Holden Guest

    mrkurt wrote:

    [...]
    > BTW, has anyone used or tried WingIDE? It does look like a really
    > polished product.
    >

    Yes, I'm a very happy WingIDE user. It has no GUI builder, but it's very
    impressive in letting you debug windowed programs. Only yesterday I was
    setting breakpoints in a PythonCard interface. Well worth the dosh, IMHO.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
    Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
     
    Steve Holden, Dec 30, 2004
    #9
  10. mike kreiner

    mike kreiner Guest

    Thanks for all of your comments. I didn't intend for this to turn into
    a "which IDE should I use?" posting, but everyone's comments gave me
    food for thought all the same, and convinced me to try Eclipse and
    WingIDE. Please forgive me for this lengthy explanation of my view.

    Much of my original question deals with perception as well as actual
    functionality. I am a mechanical engineering undergrad who has never
    taken a computer science class. I've spent 3 summers programming in VB
    for a large biomedical company, and have used Matlab extensively in
    school. I've also used fortran and c++, although not nearly as much. I
    was immediately blown away by the clarity and elegance of Python
    syntax, which combined with rave testimonies all over the internet made
    me pursue Python despite some early difficulties. The first python
    program i tried to write was for my summer job. I wanted to compare two
    ridiculously large sets of data (1 GB of scientific junk), and display
    the differences between the sets in a nice grid. long story short i
    wasted a few days trying to figure out GUI stuff, and ended up
    programming it in VB. from this first experience i perceived python as
    elegant but difficult to implement for real world programs. I kept on
    pursuing python, still attracted to its elegance, and now i'm writing
    code for independent research in python. I have a feeling though that
    not many people would keep trying to learn python after such a setback.

    Before posting this thread I had tried all the free python IDEs i could
    find, as well as toyed around with kdevelop's python features. i hadn't
    tried Eclipse, but in installing and looking over it today i'm
    impressed. this may be what i wanted, despite the size. earlier i was
    afraid to try the WingIDE trial for fear that i'd really love it, and
    in a moment of weakness end up spending $200 i dont really have. i just
    installed it however, and the screenshots and info online make it look
    great as well. still not a solution to the original problem though,
    because it ain't free. IDLE is about as basic an IDE as i can imagine.
    it serves its role, however new python users won't be nearly impressed
    with it as they are the language. i know the language is the most
    important thing, however next on the list should be development tools.
    ideally, after installing just python, people should be blown away by
    the tools that simplify development as well as blown away by the
    language itself. the total python experience should leave people
    wondering "why didn't anyone think of that sooner?"

    VS is a beast, and i'm not recommending something that huge go into the
    standard install, but has anyone here used Matlab? The Matlab IDE is
    intuitive and simple. it has a basic version of all the standard
    goodies: GUI, debugging, etc. (no built-in source control though, you
    have to integrate it w/ another system, which is easy as well). it has
    the familiar prompt window we know and love, plus other windows for
    browsing objects, files, etc. I just flat-out like it better than the
    other python IDEs i've tried, which all seem to have one or two of the
    basic things either absent or too complicated to figure out. A
    Matlab-like IDE (or something similar) doesn't seem like a monumental
    leap from IDLE, so why isn't more emphasis in python development put
    into making the entire python experience "batteries included?"
     
    mike kreiner, Dec 30, 2004
    #10
  11. mike kreiner

    mike kreiner Guest

    I should add that i mean no insult to the IDLE developers. they've done
    a good job. it just seems that many people, after trying IDLE and being
    unimpressed, decide to work on one of the myriad other open-source
    python IDEs. i think we're all looking at python 3000 as being a huge
    boost for python (comparable to Firefox's 1.0 release for example). the
    ability to break backwards compatability makes me think 3000 can really
    clean house for the language and win over many new converts as a huge
    (and well publicized) step forward. i'm wondering if other people
    believe one of the main keys to 3000's success is the default IDE. in
    other words, why aren't more resources put into IDLE, instead of some
    of the more specifc language tweaks?

    ~mike
     
    mike kreiner, Dec 30, 2004
    #11
  12. On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:34:47 -0500, Steve Holden <> wrote:

    >Brendan Kohler wrote:
    >
    >> "mike kreiner" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>>Are there any plans for developing a standard IDE for python that's
    >>>included with the python installation? I found information about other
    >>>IDE's elsewhere online, but couldn't even find any mention of this
    >>>possibility.
    >>>
    >>>I'm still relatively new to Python--I switched over from VB--and I
    >>>found it difficult to learn python without an IDE. Most experienced
    >>>programmers I know started out using Emacs or another text editor, and
    >>>are very happy with that; however, I found it difficult to put all the
    >>>pieces (like GUI, etc.) together myself. i tried many of the free IDEs,
    >>>but was dissatisfied (VS is tough to beat in my opinion, much better
    >>>than the average m$ application *plz don't flame*). although it'd be a
    >>>difficult undertaking, i think an IDE would be a tremendous boost for
    >>>python in terms of gaining support in education and the business
    >>>community. has anyone else discussed this? does anyone know the BDFL's
    >>>stance? thanks.
    >>>
    >>>~mike
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >> That would be something called IDLE, which is included with python already.
    >>
    >>

    >With respect it wouldn't, since IDLE doesn;t include a GUI builder. I
    >think Mike's cri-de-couer is for a tool that makes it as easy as Visual
    >Studio to put a GUI-based application together.
    >
    >To which I can only respond that it's obvious Microsoft haven't wasted
    >ALL the money they've spent on developemnt. VS *is* a tough act to beat,
    >though certainly not impossible.

    IMO the GUI-building part was beaten before it even seriously existed, by Delphi.
    I suspect that remains true, even though M$ enticed (.5 mega$ signing bonus rumored)
    then-Borland's Delphi guru Anders Hejlsberg to work for them.
    I guess it would have taken a Stallman to refuse ;-)

    The machine-language debug windows you can get into with VS _are_ very nice if you
    need to get down to that. They are better than what Delphi used to have IIRC
    (at some version you had to throw a secret switch to turn on low level debugging, IIRC).
    But for GUI building I think Delphi is the hard act to follow, with it's visual component
    libraries that you and third parties can enhance. The project management stuff seemed to
    me comparable.

    I think there are Delphi/python projects, but I haven't pursued them.
    >
    > I wish there *were* something equivalent. If Jim Hugunin can persuade
    >Microsoft to fully support Python in Visula Studio .NET they'd have at
    >least one more customer.

    MSVS is very seductive. But so is open source independence ;-)

    Regards,
    Bengt Richter
     
    Bengt Richter, Dec 30, 2004
    #12
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