subroutine stack and C machine model

N

Nick

Flash Gordon said:
There's a group by the name of alt.usage.english for when you want ti
discus what the work "clear" means,

and you can find me there
but you have been discussing it
here. You can reasonably argue the discussing whether Schildt's book
are correct or not is topical (although trying to do so with Nilges is
obviously pointless), but I can't see how you can argue that
discussing the meaning of words not defined by the C standard is
topical when you can simply re-word your claim about Schilt's books to
avoid the word in question.

So argue with Nilges about C if you must, but not about philosophy or
the English language.

The problem with that is that he is using his version of English to
argue about C in, and confusing us all in the process. It's not really
possible to use the C Standard as a vocabulary for discussing C in.

If I insist that the results of the "sinf" function are wrong, because I
use wrong to mean "not correct to precisely 372 significant figures",
you're going to find it difficult to discuss the issue with me without
going into the fact that I'm using "wrong" in a different way to
everybody else on the planet.
 
A

Antoninus Twink

You and a couple of other anonymous trolls were pretty much the bulk
of the exceptions. There's some pretty competent folks here, and some
newbies who will probably be pretty competent in a few years -- but
I've certainly worked with worse.

You've shifted the goalposts here.

There are plenty of C experts in this group who would certainly be
competent colleagues... but fun? Really? Can you imagine Eric Sossman
sitting in the next office every day? Competent, no question. Fun? I
hardly think so.

(Of course, there are some posters who don't have any C expertise to
make up for their social deficiencies. Heathfield is the obvious
example.)
 
N

Nick

spinoza1111 said:
The dictionary reports usage, and in using the complete OED you
demonstrated that you're not qualified to use such a tool, which is
not meant for a person without real education or culture, which you
seem to be.

And we're all telling you that "clear" is /used/ differently. So,
actually, bringing the dictionaries in is a red herring. Clear is
routinely used in English to refer to the comprehensibility, not the
correctness, of a statement. Statements can be clear and wrong or
unclear but right.

For the third time of asking - is English your native language? I'm
finding it difficult to believe it is.
 
F

Flash Gordon

Tim said:
Not just a fool, but a Fool. But not even a competent Fool, with his
rambling (zzzzz ...zzzz) and turgid posts.

A Fool knows what he is doing and does it deliberately. I don't think
that is the case with Nilges, I think he honestly believes what he says
however wrong-headed it might be.
He also had to pretend to some support here by creating his "Kenny" and
"richard" sock puppets.

They are not sock puppets, and probably only support him to try and stir
up trouble.

It would be easier if everyone just killfiled Nilges as there is no real
chance of him significantly changing his mind and newbies won't be
confused by him for long since his mistakes and personality will quickly
reveal themselves. So the only reason to respond to him is if you enjoy
pointless arguments which will never change the mind of the person you
are arguing with.
 
F

Flash Gordon

Nick said:
The problem with that is that he is using his version of English to
argue about C in, and confusing us all in the process. It's not really
possible to use the C Standard as a vocabulary for discussing C in.

If I insist that the results of the "sinf" function are wrong, because I
use wrong to mean "not correct to precisely 372 significant figures",
you're going to find it difficult to discuss the issue with me without
going into the fact that I'm using "wrong" in a different way to
everybody else on the planet.

So shrug your shoulders and say, "OK, I mean that sinf is not correct to
precisely 372 significant figures" and move on. Or, in this case, say,
"OK, I mean that it is easy to read Shildt's books and understand what
he incorrectly thinks is true about C, but the books have too many
errors to be useful for learning C" and move on. Or simply killfile him.
Either way you don't have to argue with him about what one specific word
means.
 
S

spinoza1111

And we're all telling you that "clear" is /used/ differently.  So,
actually, bringing the dictionaries in is a red herring.  Clear is
routinely used in English to refer to the comprehensibility, not the
correctness, of a statement.  Statements can be clear and wrong or

At times, a statement might be clear but turn out to be wrong. But a
WRITER or a long TEXT that is clear is clear in the sense of
understandable, and understanding is knowledge, and knowledge is
justified true belief.

Seebach said that a large C book was clear, which meant that it
contributes to understanding, and justified true belief. Which Herb's
book in large measure did (with the usual number of errata in a
computer book that includes code). The problem is that C is
sufficiently low level such that Herb's code didn't "port" and wasn't
"standard" although in the case of CTCR there was no intent to be so.

Therefore the book did not meet Seebach's needs. But given his
apparent amateur standing (at least today) in programming (his job
seems to me demiclerical) and his known lack of academic
qualifications in computer science (he's admitted to never taking a
compsci class), he has no business telling other people that they will
get no value from Schildt. But this is not the only thing he did. He
also enabled a destructive rumor to start that Schildt contains "100s"
of errors.

I have asked him, repeatedly, to post the data base of 100s of known
errors and he has not done so.
unclear but right.

For the third time of asking - is English your native language?  I'm
finding it difficult to believe it is.

Fleeing the programming field in disgust at programmer behavior
(including the replacement of skill by interpersonal trashing) and
management de-skilling I now teach English, and I'm a published
author. And as to "native" language, the low standard of American
"native" English was on display Sep 12 in Glen Beck's March on
Washington, where Troglodytes carried signs calling for English only
that were strikingly illiterate and full of English mistakes.

To be "clear" is to produce statements that can be verified to be
clear. In a FORMAL language, a manifest falsehood such as p & ~p can
be verified to be clear by a simple proof, and in the case of
contradictions in propositional logic, by an algorithm. Therefore
there are statements that are clearly wrong in formal languages.

However, to be "clear" in natural language is to correspond with an
acceptable amount of precision to reality. There are no other tests
unless the statement is not well-formed, in which case it is unclear.
Therefore Seebach saw and stated that Herb Schildt corresponded with
an acceptable amount of precision to reality; for example, the reality
is that many platforms use twos complement and Schildt was clear in
the correspondence sense when he said that negative numbers in C are
represented in twos complement.

Seebach admitted this. Herb knows as a practical matter that C to be
understood clearly has to be implemented in a certain way, but can be
implemented in other ways. A representation for negative numbers has
to be decided-upon, a mechanism is needed for handling variables that
are simple scalar values such as the stack mechanism, and a mechanism
is need for storing larger data structures such as the heap mechanism.
The ultimate sizes of the stack and the heap vary independently of
each other and are both unknown: the amount of storage available to
them is T-c where T is the total amount of storage and c is the fixed
compiled code size on the simple one-user computer or the slice of
storage received from the OS: there is no apriori way of knowing
whether s+h where s is the maximum size of the stack and h the max
size of the heap will exceed T-c, therefore the best way is to have s
and h compete for space.

Herb intuitionistically modeled this as sharing elements of a vector
with the stack growing one way and the heap growing down, and Seebach
charged Herb with implying that the specific directions were
essentials of C rather than accidents. The problem is that ANY model
of the requirements would contain accidents, and the ordinary sensible
person as opposed to the autistic twerp can be expected to sort this
out: for the same reason the geometry teacher never has to explain
that the Pythagorean theorem applies whether you consider the right
triangle to be outside (but tangent to) or inside (but tangent to) the
physical lines of nonzero width which display the triangle on the
board.

It would be one thing to not find Herb's instantiated, and
Aristotelean (as opposed to Platonic) method of teaching to one's
liking and still another to not recommend Herb.

But I teach book reviews, and in so doing I present an example of an
unacceptable review by "Evil Chuckie". In the review, which was taken
from Amazon, Evil Chuckie says "I had to read this book [Roll of
Thunder Hear My Cry] for school and it sucked!

I tell the class that you should never say that a book sucks or is bad
because this is an interference with the freedom of thought of other
readers. But Seebach is not only Evil Chuckie, he also enabled a
campaign of personal and professional destruction without really doing
his homework.
 
K

Kenny McCormack

You've shifted the goalposts here.

Exactly. Very well put.
There are plenty of C experts in this group who would certainly be
competent colleagues... but fun? Really? Can you imagine Eric Sossman
sitting in the next office every day? Competent, no question. Fun? I
hardly think so.

Exactly. Very well put.
(Of course, there are some posters who don't have any C expertise to
make up for their social deficiencies. Heathfield is the obvious
example.)

Exactly. Extremely well put.

Now, that said, it is true that the group here (with the obvious few
notable exceptions) are an extremely self-selected group, who have
pretty much abandoned the notion of "fun" (as used/defined/understood by
anyone even remotely resembling a normal human being) in exchange for
their clique membership. So, it is not entirely impossible that their
definition of "fun" *does* match up with turds like Eric, et al.
 
S

spinoza1111

Not just a fool, but a Fool. But not even a competent Fool, with his
rambling (zzzzz ...zzzz) and turgid posts.

He also had to pretend to some support here by creating his "Kenny" and
"richard" sock puppets.

They're not sock puppets. The only sock puppet I've ever created on
wikipedia was Lilith in response to the unethical practices of the
convenience store clerks and rednecks who now run wikipedia.
 
S

Seebs

You've shifted the goalposts here.

I may have.
There are plenty of C experts in this group who would certainly be
competent colleagues... but fun? Really? Can you imagine Eric Sossman
sitting in the next office every day? Competent, no question. Fun? I
hardly think so.

What would you expect to need to change for him to be fun? I have a number
of coworkers who are very calm and pedantic while discussing purely technical
material, and very witty and amusing when they're not specifically focused
on technical discussion. I like puns, and it turns out that pedantry makes
for good punsters.
(Of course, there are some posters who don't have any C expertise to
make up for their social deficiencies. Heathfield is the obvious
example.)

I don't see any basis for the assumption that he lacks C expertise. He
appears to demonstrate substantial expertise with the language fairly
regularly to me.

-s
 
S

Seebs

He also had to pretend to some support here by creating his "Kenny" and
"richard" sock puppets.

Do you really think those are Spinny's socks? I'm not Kenny's biggest
fan or anything, but he strikes me as a lot more lucid than Spinny.

-s
 
L

lawrence.jones

Seebs said:
Yeah, the difference is it has ridiculously tiny print and a very impressive
magnifying glass. (I grew up with one.)

I doubt that. Not that you had one, that you grew up. :)
 
T

Tim Streater

Seebs said:
Do you really think those are Spinny's socks? I'm not Kenny's biggest
fan or anything, but he strikes me as a lot more lucid than Spinny.

:)

No, not really. They are just a bit slavish where Spinny is concerned.
 
S

Seebs

No, not really. They are just a bit slavish where Spinny is concerned.

I'd assume it's the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". See, e.g.,
John Kelly joining in Spinny's speculations that my claims about Schildt
are somehow defamatory. That makes no sense; I don't think there's any
chance that Mr. Kelly is actually that stupid.

-s
 
S

Seebs

I doubt that. Not that you had one, that you grew up. :)

Oooh, I'm so offended, I'm going to stomp off and play Pokemon.

-s
p.s.: Actually, I never really got into Pokemon, too tedious.
 
K

Kenny McCormack

For someone that so frequently claims he's not here to make friends or
piss on the borders of the clique in order to mark his own territory,
you sure do mention friends and enemies a lot. Are you a
little insecure?

Gee. ya think???

It is, incidentally, universally true that people who deny interest in
status are the most status conscious of all. The claim to not care
about status is the biggest ego trip statement there is.
 
T

Tim Streater

Richard said:
I can assure you I am no sock of his. And one doesn't need to be to
wonder why you keep posting "as I recall" posts when its as clear as the
chip on your shoulder you don't have a clue. Hint for you : mistakes in
code are always fine. But posting totally incorrect "basics" because you
"think you recall" is not on in a group dedicated to helping people with
practical C. It's better to say nothing at all then join the mob in
trying to get the attention and point scoring by being the in the top 3
to smother a question with "thats not how you declare main" or "dont
cast the return value of malloc" etc etc.

You're obviously confusing me with someone else.
 
D

Dennis \(Icarus\)

Richard Heathfield said:
I am in the real world. I can understand a false statement. Therefore
I am a counter-example to your claim. Since your claim is absolute,
and since at least one counter-example exists, the claim is shown to
be false.

It seems to me that in order to be able to determine whether a statement is
true or false, you first have to understand it.

<snip>
 
S

spinoza1111

In

spinoza1111wrote:


Right, like we've been trying to tell you, QED.

A statement is not a text.
I have asked [Peter Seebach], repeatedly, to post the data
base of 100s of known errors and he has not done so.

Do your own homework. He found a bunch on a flickthrough. I find one

You keep claiming this in the same way you repeat claims about people
here, but you haven't documented these claims.
or two new ones every time I open the book. If you really want to
know precisely how many errors there are, read the book and find the
errors yourself.

[...] I now teach English,

Wow, someone must have been desperate.

No, I have other skills than programming and I escaped "welfare for
white males".
 
S

spinoza1111

It seems to me that in order to be able to determine whether a statement is
true or false, you first have to understand it.

Perhaps. But if a text (not a "statement": a "statement" is a
fetishised and reified piece of a formal language spoken by
troglodytes) is clear this means you've understood it and have
verified that it has a precise relation to reality, eg., is for the
most part, true.

Suck on this: a work of fiction can be clearly written but cannot be
clear in the way of non-fiction: but Seebach did not say that Schildt
is clearly written nor did Schildt intend to write a work of fiction.
 
S

spinoza1111

Do you really think those are Spinny's socks?  I'm not Kenny's biggest
fan or anything, but he strikes me as a lot more lucid than Spinny.

I used a sock on wikipedia to fight the Hitlerpedians, and also on
Amazon to post one positive review is response to the spammed attack
on my book at Amazon. I pulled the single sock review on Amazon after
a year, informing Amazon of what I'd done, and I no longer post as
Lilith to Wikipedia. I've never used a sock puppet on Google Groups.
Nonetheless Richard (not Heathfield), Kenny and Lawrence at Siemens
seem in part to be on my "side" in this, while retaining their freedom
of speech. For example, Kenny has wondered why I don't go out and get
laid more: the answer is that desublimation is a tool of control.

There are also any number of lurkers who are afraid to post because of
Richard Heathfield's behavior, which borders on the bizarre and
criminal.
 

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