tracking logins

R

Roedy Green

What schemes have you seen/conceived of for a server to keep track of
which login session a client is?

1. have the client send in a cookie containing the session id with
each request.

2. keep a TCP/IP stream open.

3. allow only one session per IP, and track IP.


--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

"Here is a point of no return after which warming becomes unstoppable
and we are probably going to sail right through it.
It is the point at which anthropogenic (human-caused) warming triggers
huge releases of carbon dioxide from warming oceans, or similar releases
of both carbon dioxide and methane from melting permafrost, or both.
Most climate scientists think that point lies not far beyond 2°C (4°F) C hotter."
~ Gwynne Dyer
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Roedy said:
What schemes have you seen/conceived of for a server to keep track of
which login session a client is?

1. have the client send in a cookie containing the session id with
each request.

2. keep a TCP/IP stream open.

3. allow only one session per IP, and track IP.

For a web app the web container maintains session via
cookies or URL rewriting without any user code.

For a traditional fat client - server daemon context
a permanent socket seems as the most obvious.

Arne

PS: IP check is not good because multiple valid users can be
sitting behind the same NAT firewall.
 
M

Mark Space

Roedy said:
What schemes have you seen/conceived of for a server to keep track of
which login session a client is?

1. have the client send in a cookie containing the session id with
each request.
Good.


2. keep a TCP/IP stream open.

Will be annoying for users on poor connections, since each time they
loose a connection they'll have to log-in again.

3. allow only one session per IP, and track IP.

As Arne pointed out, almost all forms of gateways and routers in popular
use will break this. They all re-use one IP address for a group of
client machines. Only source port+IP address is guaranteed to be
unique. Also, one client can attach multiple times on a different
socket and will use the same IP address. This could create concurrency
problems for your app if you don't handle this carefully.
 
A

alexandre_paterson

Roedy Green wrote: ....
PS: IP check is not good because multiple valid users can be
sitting behind the same NAT firewall.

Indeed!

An for Webapps it's even worse than that. One session per IP not
only fails for the reason you mentionned, but it will also fail
because it's also perfectly valid (and very common --anyone
monitoring successful websites has encountered that), to have
different requests --even for elements on a same webpage-- coming
from different IPs for a single user.

You may even have all GET requests coming from one IP and all
POST requests coming from another IP for a single user.

Alex
 
M

Mark Space

different requests --even for elements on a same webpage-- coming
from different IPs for a single user.

Are you sure about that? I've heard of different requests from the same
user from the same IP, but not from the same user and different IPs.
What network configuration would actually yield that type of event?

I guess a really big NAT, with multiple machines, each with it's own IP
address, NATing the same user through different machines... Hmmm, tricky....

Yeah, I could see that... cookies or old single session connections it
is then.
 
A

angrybaldguy

What schemes have you seen/conceived of for a server to keep track of
which login session a client is?

1. have the client send in a cookie containing the session id with
each request.

2. keep a TCP/IP stream open.

3. allow only one session per IP, and track IP.

4. HTTP auth, which sends credentials or a token with every request.
It's similar to 1, but implemented differently.

-p
 
C

cutiebabe08

4. HTTP auth, which sends credentials or a token with every request.
It's similar to 1, but implemented differently.

-p

Hello...

I would like to ask you a simple question.

I have this problem. One guy has been hecked my account twice from
now. I know he is going to be coming back. I had my account back
because my other friends scolded him and told him to give me back my
password. I am getting frustrated a lot. I do not wish to encounter
this problem again. I made the most strongest passwords ( believe me
I'm good at creating strong passwords). I made the security questions
for password. He is like programmer.. who knows how to heck people
accounts. And I need a professional help to make sure, he won't do
this again. How can I do it? How should I report this person to google
company? Is there any better way?
My gmail accounts are very personal. He keeps bothering me a lot.
Please help me.

If this isn't the question you should be answering, where should I ask
this question?
Please help

Thanks a lot
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

I have this problem. One guy has been hecked my account twice from
now. I know he is going to be coming back. I had my account back
because my other friends scolded him and told him to give me back my
password. I am getting frustrated a lot. I do not wish to encounter
this problem again. I made the most strongest passwords ( believe me
I'm good at creating strong passwords). I made the security questions
for password. He is like programmer.. who knows how to heck people
accounts. And I need a professional help to make sure, he won't do
this again. How can I do it? How should I report this person to google
company? Is there any better way?
My gmail accounts are very personal. He keeps bothering me a lot.
Please help me.

If this isn't the question you should be answering, where should I ask
this question?

Unless the web app in question is coded in Java and you have
access to change the code in the web app, then this is not
the right forum.

Arne
 
R

Roedy Green

I have this problem. One guy has been hecked my account twice from
now. I know he is going to be coming back. I had my account back
because my other friends scolded him and told him to give me back my
password. I am getting frustrated a lot. I do not wish to encounter
this problem again. I made the most strongest passwords ( believe me
I'm good at creating strong passwords). I made the security questions
for password. He is like programmer.. who knows how to heck people
accounts. And I need a professional help to make sure, he won't do
this again. How can I do it? How should I report this person to google
company? Is there any better way?
My gmail accounts are very personal. He keeps bothering me a lot.
Please help me.

If he is guessing your password, try using an 8-char password created
by this program http://mindprod.com/applet/password.html

If he is hacking into the server, that is the problem of whomever
manages the server. Tell them what is happening and ask them to apply
whatever security patches there are for their OS.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

"Here is a point of no return after which warming becomes unstoppable
and we are probably going to sail right through it.
It is the point at which anthropogenic (human-caused) warming triggers
huge releases of carbon dioxide from warming oceans, or similar releases
of both carbon dioxide and methane from melting permafrost, or both.
Most climate scientists think that point lies not far beyond 2°C (4°F) C hotter."
~ Gwynne Dyer
 
R

Roedy Green

What schemes have you seen/conceived of for a server to keep track of
which login session a client is?

summarising what I have learned:

You might wonder how after the login is complete that the server can
tell if messages coming in from the Internet are from people who are
already logged in. There are a number of ways of doing it. Some you
might think would work don’t.


1. By IP. You might think the server could just check if an IP in a
message header was from someone logged in. This does not work because
IPs are shared. Everyone in your home on the LAN, when the access the
Internet comes from the same IP, the IP of your router.

2. By TCP/IP session. You might think the server would just check that
the message came in on the same TCP/IP session as the user logged in
on. This won't work since you often connect with multiple sessions,
and you would not want to have to relogin just because a session
tanked.

3. Basic. The server sends you id/password with every request that is
restricted. This method is not secure since the id/password pair is in
plain text for any snoop to see.

4. NTLM. This is a Microsoft proprietary protocol than will only work
with Microsoft servers and clients. I don’t know how it works. Java
supports it.

5. By Cookie. The server sends a cookie at login time, and the user
includes this cookie with each message to the server. This method is
not secure since anyone snooping can spoof the user by just copying
the invariant cookie. Further, the client’s browser must be configured
to accept cookies, a practice which invites all manner of malicious
spying.

6. By HTTP auth digest. RFC 2617 Here each incoming message is
digitally signed in an unforgeable way. The disadvantage of this
approach is it takes a bit more CPU time to compute the digests and
requires the more transmission overhead. The advantage is it is the
most secure method without resorting to a fully encrypted data stream.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

"Here is a point of no return after which warming becomes unstoppable
and we are probably going to sail right through it.
It is the point at which anthropogenic (human-caused) warming triggers
huge releases of carbon dioxide from warming oceans, or similar releases
of both carbon dioxide and methane from melting permafrost, or both.
Most climate scientists think that point lies not far beyond 2°C (4°F) C hotter."
~ Gwynne Dyer
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

If he is guessing your password, try using an 8-char password created
by this program http://mindprod.com/applet/password.html

If he is hacking into the server, that is the problem of whomever
manages the server. Tell them what is happening and ask them to apply
whatever security patches there are for their OS.

If it is pure guessing then almost any password is good enough.

If there is a hole in the app then password does not matter.

If he can get to the hashed password, then 8 char is too short.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Sabine said:
This is of course not a problem when using SSL. Just to keep in mind.

Form based login also sends username/password in clear text
unless HTTPS (SSL) is used.

Arne
 
R

Roedy Green

Otherwise a malignent person doesn't need to snoop the user, they can
just snoop the data right away.

A lot of places want you to login just to discourage hit and run
people who leave junk messages on boards. The login means the user at
least once accepted an email message.

The information is not secret, just the right to post is mildly
restricted.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

"Here is a point of no return after which warming becomes unstoppable
and we are probably going to sail right through it.
It is the point at which anthropogenic (human-caused) warming triggers
huge releases of carbon dioxide from warming oceans, or similar releases
of both carbon dioxide and methane from melting permafrost, or both.
Most climate scientists think that point lies not far beyond 2°C (4°F) C hotter."
~ Gwynne Dyer
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Sabine said:
You could make the case that if a login is required, the information is
sensitive, so you'd have to use encryption in any case.

Otherwise a malignent person doesn't need to snoop the user, they can
just snoop the data right away.

Yes.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Roedy said:
A lot of places want you to login just to discourage hit and run
people who leave junk messages on boards. The login means the user at
least once accepted an email message.

The information is not secret, just the right to post is mildly
restricted.

Unfortunately many people uses the same username/passwords
at multiple sites.

Which gives you as a site owner a responsibility to protect
the data (unless you very explicit inform the users that you
do not protect their data) even if the access they grant to
your site is unimportant.

Arne
 
R

Roedy Green

Ah I see. The confirmation per email with a link the user has to click
or copy into their browser really is the best way, as a case of one of
my friends shows - he never got the confirmation, but the website
considered him registered anyway, and later started charging his CC.

I find the idea of using a credit card on the Internet insane. It is
like giving an unknown vendor a pile of blank cheques. It is so odd
it is still so common.

We need ways to transfer money where vendor has to identify himself,
and you give him one-time access to a fixed amount. Paypal is pretty
good except that most sites don't take it.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

"Here is a point of no return after which warming becomes unstoppable
and we are probably going to sail right through it.
It is the point at which anthropogenic (human-caused) warming triggers
huge releases of carbon dioxide from warming oceans, or similar releases
of both carbon dioxide and methane from melting permafrost, or both.
Most climate scientists think that point lies not far beyond 2°C (4°F) C hotter."
~ Gwynne Dyer
 
B

blue indigo

I find the idea of using a credit card on the Internet insane. It is
like giving an unknown vendor a pile of blank cheques. It is so odd
it is still so common.

Likewise. All of those big data breaches in the news, with compromised
credit card numbers and credit monitoring for the afflicted. Where's the
sense in this? Vendors should not be receiving, let alone storing, a
secret authentication token that can be used to impersonate one of their
customers.

There is no excuse for this. We've had public-key cryptography since we've
had a public, mainstream internet and since before we've had serious
ecommerce. We know how to design authentication schemes that don't rely on
shared secrets, where someone can prove they know a private number without
revealing that number, and thereby prove they are authorized to release
funds from a particular account or whatever.

So where is the online equivalent of the personal cheque, complete with
unforgeable digital signature and drawn on any of a number of
internet-savvy banks? All we have are credit card numbers, which have
virtually no security, and such sorry excuses for "internet banks" as
Paypal. And it shows no sign of changing anytime soon.

I credit it to inertia. Merchant transactions have been mainly cash,
debit, and credit from time immemorial. The former doesn't work on the net
and the authentication for the latter involves shared secrets. This worked
okay when vendor databases of customer credit card info consisted of big
paper ledgers, or private computer databases with no connection to the
internet, and there was also no real way to fraudulently use a credit card
number without physically cloning a card, raising the bar for such misuse.

But now that bar has been lowered since you can use just the
number, without a physical card, to order your heart's desire from
amazon.com and its ilk.
We need ways to transfer money where vendor has to identify himself,
and you give him one-time access to a fixed amount. Paypal is pretty
good except that most sites don't take it.

Paypal is pretty awful. I agree with most of the rest, except why should
the vendor have to identify himself? Well, I guess it depends on what you
mean by "identify". Digital signatures on electronic "cheques" and similar
instruments allow the possibility of vendor and buyer having pseudonymity,
with the ability to build up a reputation for the pseudonymous identity
but also the ability to abandon it in the future for whatever reason. Of
course, those with little or no history would be treated with some
suspicion, and might be asked to pay up front or put up collateral for
some things, versus someone with an established reputation as a
non-cheater. On the vendor side, customers might prefer to shop elsewhere
than a vendor with no, or a bad, reputation.

But that's as it should be. Reputation should count for more than
marketing gloss, and maybe someday soon it will again, but it should be
possible to start over, too.

As for relating all of this to Java, well, Java has some nice
cryptographic algorithms, including public-key ones, in its standard
library, and is being used heavily server-side these days, so it's a
natural language choice for implementing some of these futuristic new
payment systems for the 'net.
 
R

Roedy Green

I credit it to inertia.

In the early days there was Digital Cash, but it died. I think the
public did not understand what it was for.

The big credit card companies must be losing a bundle on Internet
fraud. It seems so peculiar they don't set up something for Internet
use that uses public private keys/certificates. The math part I could
cook up in a weekend.

They are going for smart cards. These will need some sort of local
reader to use them for Internet use. Perhaps they don't want a
separate system only to be soon replaced.

I agree, a digital version of a paper cheque is all that is needed.
It identifies payer, payee, amount, currency, date, unique id, what
the funds are for, bank/account holding the funds, digitally signed.

It is worthless to a third party. It is worthless to the payee after
cashing.

They could be fed into the usual cheque clearing system, but more
likely either payer or payee would send the cheque directly to the
bank who would verity the funds, freeze the funds and digitally sign
to that effect.

Banks would not like the idea of instant transfer of money. They want
to hold it for a week as it is transferred between accounts. That's
how they make their money.

--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

"Here is a point of no return after which warming becomes unstoppable
and we are probably going to sail right through it.
It is the point at which anthropogenic (human-caused) warming triggers
huge releases of carbon dioxide from warming oceans, or similar releases
of both carbon dioxide and methane from melting permafrost, or both.
Most climate scientists think that point lies not far beyond 2°C (4°F) C hotter."
~ Gwynne Dyer
 
M

Martin Gregorie

The big credit card companies must be losing a bundle on Internet fraud.
It seems so peculiar they don't set up something for Internet use that
uses public private keys/certificates. The math part I could cook up in
a weekend.

They are going for smart cards. These will need some sort of local
reader to use them for Internet use. Perhaps they don't want a separate
system only to be soon replaced.
There are a couple of variations appearing on this side of the pond, but
they're not (yet) widespread.

(1) At least one of the major CCs is 'doing a PayPal' by providing
their own card detail capture page and allowing vendors to link
to it. Sure, this is no more secure than PayPal, but it does at
least keep card details hidden from the vendor.

(2) Some of the banks are issuing an offline reader for smartcards.
It looks like a small calculator for doing three factor
authentication. The factors are having the card, knowing the
PIN and entering a one-time challenge value generated by the
card issuer.

The prompt is a web page managed by the card issuer that shows
transaction details, asks you to use the reader and supplies
the challenge value. You put your card in the reader and enter
your PIN and the challenge. The reader supplies a response that
you enter into the page and send back to the the card issuer
for validation. The vendor presumably sends transaction details
to the card issuer and receives a pass/fail response.

I think this as as secure a system as I've seen to date because
card details are never sent over the 'net. Its cheap to implement
too, since the reader is inexpensive enough to be given away. It
should work for all cards, since they all work in any ATM, so
hopefully you'd not need more than one reader.
 
R

Roedy Green

(2) Some of the banks are issuing an offline reader for smartcards.
It looks like a small calculator for doing three factor
authentication. The factors are having the card, knowing the
PIN and entering a one-time challenge value generated by the
card issuer.

The prompt is a web page managed by the card issuer that shows
transaction details, asks you to use the reader and supplies
the challenge value. You put your card in the reader and enter
your PIN and the challenge. The reader supplies a response that
you enter into the page and send back to the the card issuer
for validation. The vendor presumably sends transaction details
to the card issuer and receives a pass/fail response.

I think this as as secure a system as I've seen to date because
card details are never sent over the 'net. Its cheap to implement
too, since the reader is inexpensive enough to be given away. It
should work for all cards, since they all work in any ATM, so
hopefully you'd not need more than one reader.


This sounds like a proper solution. It has a big advantage. Even if
hackers crack the OS security, they can't get hold of the private key.
The smart card still guards. I presume the card is designed in such a
way software CAN'T extract he private key from it.

It seems to me though the user should not have to rekey the challenge
phrase. Surely the credit card company must identify itself to the
card for a challenge to even be accepted.


--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com

"Here is a point of no return after which warming becomes unstoppable
and we are probably going to sail right through it.
It is the point at which anthropogenic (human-caused) warming triggers
huge releases of carbon dioxide from warming oceans, or similar releases
of both carbon dioxide and methane from melting permafrost, or both.
Most climate scientists think that point lies not far beyond 2°C (4°F) C hotter."
~ Gwynne Dyer
 

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