Yet Another Web Application Mess...

G

Giovanni Azua

Monique Y. Mudama said:
I don't see the negativity in this professional prostitution phrase,
anyway. Prostitutes are there to make their customers happy. It's
certainly been a viable profession far longer than software
development has.
Accept prostitution as a "viable profession" for me is like e.g.
accepting as okay that someone kills his own mother for money, how
can it not be just plain horrible? for me is terrifying arriving to
equivalent
situations for not having values clear enough, small little mistake
and you are there on the wrong side that is why I started
appreciating gerrards's point of view.
Do you think a prostitute is going to say, "I know you say you want
this, but I don't think it's the best way to get you off, so I'm not
going to do it?" And why would saying that be a good thing?
I would never trust and accept as "good thing" someone
willing to sell anything including its own body and dignity,
and I come from a country where economical and political
pressure takes the worst from each person.

I was trying to show at the beginning that they were being too
radical with those judgements, likely each one of us has
its own line of defining good from bad, I thought they were
on the very low tolerance side.

Best Regards,
Giovanni
 
G

gerrards8

Monique said:
I don't see the negativity in this professional prostitution phrase,
anyway. Prostitutes are there to make their customers happy. It's
certainly been a viable profession far longer than software
development has.

LOL

And that's exactly what it is... Make customers happy for the money,
regardless of ethical standards.
 
G

gerrards8

If everyone followed this principle, there would be a lot of very
proud, yet very unemployed programmers.

Not really... You're overlooking the "incompetence" factor! :)
 
G

gerrards8

Giovanni said:
In your general verdict, there is a soft condition "solution
that is not in the best interest of your client" technically speaking
this is not something you can always exactly pinpoint, maybe e.g.
hidden/unknown variables as it was mentioned before.

Lowering down the example I made before, lets say that there
is no such half a million USD to remove the touch of suspiciousness
and possible convenience. Lets now put the company or developer
offers its customer the Swing App but the customer ask explicitly
for the thin web application ...

How can You define the line of difference between what the
customer *wants* and what the customer *needs* ? Sometimes is
obvious but here not ... there are no death bodies, no crime, no
threat as consequence of the choice made and most importantly
the developer/company has not made "Professional Prostitution"
but just satisfied that customer demand and made the customer
happy e.g. perhaps because the customer wants to hire more
data entry people in the near future and is just trying to be cautious.

Does "happy customers are returning customers" ring a bell to you? :)

Why is this so difficult to understand?

The line is usually very clear. If there is no clear advantage of one
solution over the other, then the issue does not exist. However, when a
customer insists on what you have determined to be the wrong solution,
then *you* make the choice between professionalism and business. I
doubt that the customer will ever come back should you decide on the
latter; perhaps the customer's lawyers will.
I admit at the beginning I was very defensive and exceptical
about your arguments but now I see you much more positively :)

Best Regards,
Giovanni

I'm certainly glad you're taking this positively, specially when we're
discussing orgasms :)
 
M

Monique Y. Mudama

LOL

And that's exactly what it is... Make customers happy for the
money, regardless of ethical standards.

I don't see what why this sort of sex is considered unethical. I
wouldn't do it if I could avoid it, but then, I wouldn't work on an
oil rig or in retail either. Nothing to do with ethics.
 
M

Monique Y. Mudama

Accept prostitution as a "viable profession" for me is like e.g.
accepting as okay that someone kills his own mother for money, how
can it not be just plain horrible?

Right, consensual sex is just like matricide.

I think I'm done here ...
 
O

Oliver Wong

Monique Y. Mudama said:
I don't see what why this sort of sex is considered unethical. I
wouldn't do it if I could avoid it, but then, I wouldn't work on an
oil rig or in retail either. Nothing to do with ethics.

I'm with you 100% Monique. There is nothing inherently ethically wrong
with having sex with someone in exchange for money, especially when all
parties involved are consenting adults (in my opinion anyway).

Perhaps gerrards8 is from a culture where sex is considered to be
ethically bad. It doesn't make sense to me, as most people I've met owe
their existence to sex, but comp.lang.java.programmer is probably not the
place to debate the moralities of sex.

Much more likely, gerrards8 is using the term "professional
prostitution" for its shock value and to instill emotional (as opposed to
logical) responses.

At any rate, it has already been addressed why we believe that barring
any exceptional circumstances (e.g. developping buggy "nuclear-weapon
controls" software) there is nothing wrong with producing software according
to the client's specifications. Unless gerrards8 brings up new arguments
other than "doing what the customer wants == prostitution; prositution ==
bad; therefore by transitive property, doing what the customer wants ==
bad", we can probably let this discussion rest.

- Oliver
 
M

Monique Y. Mudama

Perhaps gerrards8 is from a culture where sex is considered to
be ethically bad. It doesn't make sense to me, as most people
I've met owe their existence to sex, but
comp.lang.java.programmer is probably not the place to debate
the moralities of sex.

True enough.
Much more likely, gerrards8 is using the term "professional
prostitution" for its shock value and to instill emotional (as
opposed to logical) responses.

At any rate, it has already been addressed why we believe that
barring any exceptional circumstances (e.g. developping buggy
"nuclear-weapon controls" software) there is nothing wrong with
producing software according to the client's specifications.
Unless gerrards8 brings up new arguments other than "doing what
the customer wants == prostitution; prositution == bad;
therefore by transitive property, doing what the customer wants
== bad", we can probably let this discussion rest.

Good point. Sometimes it's hard for me to recognize when a debate has
devolved into a "You're Wrong!" "No, you're wrong!" situation. I'll
try to keep my mouth shut, er, my fingers from hitting send.
 
P

Patricia Shanahan

Oliver said:
It is not up to the programmer to have the final say in what is in the
best interest of the client. If the programmer suspect that the solution may
not be optimal, she may explain why to the client, but it is the client
alone who has the responsibility of deciding what is best for the client.

- Oliver

Indeed. The final choice of a technology may depend on issues such as
business relationships between companies, legal opinions on
intellectual property law, and licensing terms.

The "Software Engineering Code of Ethics and Professional Practice" at
http://www.acm.org/serving/se/code.htm includes:

"2.01. Provide service in their areas of competence, being honest and
forthright about any limitations of their experience and education."

My experience and education qualify me as neither a lawyer nor a
business expert. As far as I can tell, it would be unethical for me to
try to override a decision made by managers who are responsible for
considering all the issues, not just my technical input.

Patricia
 
S

Scott Ellsworth

I think this last point is very unfair. I need my paycheck to support
my family and pay my rent. When my manager comes to me with a project that
doesn't make sense, I do very politely tell him that the architecture
doesn't make sense and I recommend certain changes. Sometimes he accepts
these changes and all is well. Other times, he doesn't (usually because
the clients themselves want it that specific way). In that case, I just go
ahead and do it exactly the way they want.

Exactly my point. You are part of the problem. You exhibit the cowardly
behaviour I outlined. Your excuses ("if the client wants something a certain
way..") are completely unprofessional. In part because it gives our
profession a bad name.[/QUOTE]

Nonesense.

The customer gets to call the shots, as they are paying us for our
services. We can wheedle, convince, harangue, but if we do not
convince, then we probably should implement the software the way the
person paying the bills wants. If it is utterly stupid, well, then
implement it in a way that is easy to change. Unless there is real risk
of physical harm, doing anything else is stealing.

Software is rarely life and death.

My wife worked for a city. They had firefighters and paramedics, and
software supporting them _did_ save lives. That software was pretty
carefully checked, because screwing it up could kill someone.

Software that let people type letters, send email, etc., was likely not
as important. It should work, but if it does not, the cost is not
death, and thus failure to test it as thoroughly does not indicate
malfeasance.

So, if someone asks for something dumb that might get someone killed,
then implementing dumb is immoral. If all they are wasting is money,
and it is their money to spend, then I am not sure immoral is the right
term.

As far as this cowardly behavior screed of yours, you might want to tone
it down. Once you get shrill, people stop listening and stop caring.

I remember when a Linux hothead managed to convince the entire IT staff
at one company I was with that Linux is only for young radicals who
hated Microsoft. He used words like 'cowardly', 'unprofessional', and,
in his case, 'evil'. This was not convincing to the IT staff.

Words like 'not cost effective', 'poorly tested', and 'expensive to
relicense each year' about MSSQL then fell on deaf ears for a long time
to come.

All because one twerp decided to say 'I cannot respect anyone who runs
windows, or maintains it. They are stupid, greedy, or both.' Not a
great way to convince a primarily Windows IT shop to look into an open
source alternative.

The same group was willing to look at the MacOS, because I did not tell
them they were fools. I did tell them it let me get more done because
of the underlying Unix layer.

Besides, often clients insist on a dumb idea for a reason. If they will
not or cannot tell me that reason, I may implement what they ask for, so
that its flaws can be exposed. After all, blowing a month on a several
year project to prove that a bad design is bad may be the only way to
convince people, and it may be the only way to get them to tell me why
they wanted the bad design in the first place.

Scott
 
S

steve

One big advantage of web applications is that it's
very low-impact to release updates.

After updating the server, all users in your company
instantly have the new version with no action from
their part.

Imagine having to update a Swing application on
every workstations in your company each time
an update is released ...

not a problem.

oracle database, preloader .
update part of app when user logs in.

thats what java is for.
 

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