Book review / advise

[lallous]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone read this:
http://www.amazon.com/PYTHON-2-6-Ex...=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277214352&sr=1-7
or this:
http://www.amazon.com/Python-Extending-Embedding-Documentation-Manual/dp/1441412743/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Are these books just a print out of the manual that comes w/ Python
distribution or they are written in a different way and more organized
way?

Thanks,
Elias

 

[lallous]

Hi again,

Well, it seems the printed version of the manual. Can anyone suggest a
nice book to learn more about the Python C Api?

Thanks,
Elias

 

[James Mills]

Well, it seems the printed version of the manual. Can anyone suggest a
nice book to learn more about the Python C Api?

It's not really a book, but how about the source ?

If you're a competent C programmer you're not really
going to even need a pretty book now are you ?
(No phun intended!

--james

 

[lallous]

Hi James,

For me it is not a matter of competency to seek a book: organized,
structured and uniform way of presenting information.

Nonetheless, I always refer to the sources to get my questions
answered...but a book (with the qualities I mentioned above) would
make everyone's life easier.

 

[Tim Golden]

Hi James,

For me it is not a matter of competency to seek a book: organized,
structured and uniform way of presenting information.

Nonetheless, I always refer to the sources to get my questions
answered...but a book (with the qualities I mentioned above) would
make everyone's life easier.

I've never come across a published book *only* on the C API. The
main docs [1] aren't bad, in my opinion, although what suits one person
won't necessarily suit another. Mark Lutz's Programming Python [2]
includes a couple of chapters which are essentially an alternative
take on the material in the docs. There are a few published articles
around, although not many I think. And there's the C-API mailing list [3]
which is quite helpful.

TJG

[1] http://docs.python.org/py3k/c-api/

[2] http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596009250

[3] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/capi-sig

 

[James Mills]

For me it is not a matter of competency to seek a book: organized,
structured and uniform way of presenting information.

Nonetheless, I always refer to the sources to get my questions
answered...but a book (with the qualities I mentioned above) would
make everyone's life easier.

Like I said, no "phun" intended I don't know any off hand
and reading printed material is not something I enjoy!



--James

 

[lallous]

Like I said, no "phun" intended I don't know any off hand
and reading printed material is not something I enjoy!

Yes James, I understand. I did not mean to attack you or defend a
point rather than make a point.

I appreciate your feedback.

Thank you Tim too.

Regards,
Elias

 

[Stephen Hansen]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone read this:
http://www.amazon.com/PYTHON-2-6-Ex...=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277214352&sr=1-7
or this:
http://www.amazon.com/Python-Extending-Embedding-Documentation-Manual/dp/1441412743/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Are these books just a print out of the manual that comes w/ Python
distribution or they are written in a different way and more organized
way?

Uhh, that looks like a scam. Someone scraped the Python docs and bundled
it up as a "book" to sell to naive people for outrageous prices; and put
Guido's name on it to give it legitimacy.

It also bundles up the *tutorial* for $22. There's a number of very
good, large Python books which sell for that. Surely Fred L Drake and
Gudio aren't really involved in this. I wonder if they even know about it.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[Terry Reedy]

Uhh, that looks like a scam. Someone scraped the Python docs and bundled
it up as a "book" to sell to naive people for outrageous prices;

Various people have asked on this list for printed versions of the docs.
PSF has never provided them. As I once read the license, it allows
anyone to do so, and charge whatever price. I considered doing this once
myself, but they seem to have beaten me to it ...

Except that there is one possible scam aspect -- there is no version
listed on the cover. A reviewer of the ref manual said his was for
3.0.1. Selling that now as the Python 3 Ref Manual (there is no such
thing) *is* a scam. There is no indication that it has been undated. If
I were to do this, I would be honest in this respect and publish the
"Python 3.1.2 Refence Manual", etc. Much more work to redo, better
service. I would publish through print-on-demand so there is no inventory.

Given editorial and administrative costs, printing cost, bookseller
markup, and "For each copy sold $1 will be donated to the Python
Software Foundation by the publisher", the price is not unreasonable.
The fixed costs have to be amortized over an unknown and probably not
large sales base. The standard author royalty might be $2, so they are
not saving that much on that score.

and put Guido's name on it to give it legitimacy.

Guido and Fred Drake *were* the original author and editor and were once
listed as such. I am not sure who or what else the publishers should
list. Python Development Community ? (which includes me for snippets of
the docs). The license requires that they *not* put themselves as the
authors.

It also bundles up the *tutorial* for $22. There's a number of very
good, large Python books which sell for that. Surely Fred L Drake and
Gudio aren't really involved in this. I wonder if they even know about it.

You would have to ask them. Perhaps the PSF should publish each edition
of the manuals. Assembly of the pdfs for say, Lulu (a print-on-demand
publisher) could probably be pretty well automated with Python and
Sphinx. There is already a .pdf version produced, but it would need some
tweaking. And this would need someone's time.

 

[Stephen Hansen]

Various people have asked on this list for printed versions of the docs.
PSF has never provided them. As I once read the license, it allows
anyone to do so, and charge whatever price. I considered doing this once
myself, but they seem to have beaten me to it ...

Its not a question of if it is illegal, or even a copyright violation.
You can take Python itself and bundle it and sell it if you want.
"Permitted" doesn't mean its not still a scam-- that unsuspecting people
who don't quite know the difference aren't going to see this and buy it
instead of one of the real books out there (with real editing and
administrative costs) that'd be much better use of it.

Because this book is by Guido himself.

Except that there is one possible scam aspect -- there is no version
listed on the cover. A reviewer of the ref manual said his was for
3.0.1. Selling that now as the Python 3 Ref Manual (there is no such
thing) *is* a scam. There is no indication that it has been undated. If
I were to do this, I would be honest in this respect and publish the
"Python 3.1.2 Refence Manual", etc. Much more work to redo, better
service. I would publish through print-on-demand so there is no inventory.

You give them far more credit then I think they deserve; they're going
and taking:

http://docs.python.org/py3k/tutorial/index.html

And bundling that little section up together as a "book" and charging
over $22 for those hundred odd pages. The whole manual would end up
costing you $60+ -- with another $50 or so for the 'extending' then
'embedding' and 'distribution' "book" they are making.

Its like those services which go and scrape up a few vaguely-related
Wikipedia articles and package them as a "book".

Given editorial and administrative costs, printing cost, bookseller
markup, and "For each copy sold $1 will be donated to the Python
Software Foundation by the publisher", the price is not unreasonable.
The fixed costs have to be amortized over an unknown and probably not
large sales base. The standard author royalty might be $2, so they are
not saving that much on that score.

We have dramatically different definitions of "reasonable" price, then.

Guido and Fred Drake *were* the original author and editor and were once
listed as such. I am not sure who or what else the publishers should
list. Python Development Community ? (which includes me for snippets of
the docs). The license requires that they *not* put themselves as the
authors.

Yes, he was the original author; yes, the other he was the original editor.

"By Guido van Rossum" on a book cover, with "Fred L. Drake (Editor)" on
same cover, conveys something though. For one thing, people will assume
Guido had a direct hand in this: did he? And that Fred was involved in
editing (and since at least one person on one of the Amazon sales
remarked of how horribly the web->book transition was done, makes him
look bad).

There are ways you can credit the authors of the real documentation and
not flagrantly cash in on their reputation to sell (for outrageous prices).

You would have to ask them. Perhaps the PSF should publish each edition
of the manuals. Assembly of the pdfs for say, Lulu (a print-on-demand
publisher) could probably be pretty well automated with Python and
Sphinx. There is already a .pdf version produced, but it would need some
tweaking. And this would need someone's time.

I'm not saying such a thing couldn't be done; or that it shouldn't be
done; or that someone producing the web docs->book doesn't even have a
right to make a profit off of it. I'm not even saying what this company
did isn't entirely permitted -- but permitted doesn't mean there's not
some underhanded stuff going on at the same time and that its all
above-the-board and ethical.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[John Bokma]

Uhh, that looks like a scam.

Uh, it looks like you're making a lot of drama and innuendo where none
is required. The OP links show books which have *clearly* the version in
the title. As for the 3 version, that's not different from the other
books on 3 in my experience. For example the excellent (IMO) "Programming
in Python 3: A Complete Introduction to the Python Language" (30 USD)
just came out with a 2nd edition a month or 2 after I had bought the
first. So if this is a scam how is publishing an "updated" version
shortly after the first version, each book about 30 USD? (Mind, I am not
complaining, I am happy that Mark decided to make an updated version
available, I own both editions).

Someone scraped the Python docs and bundled
it up as a "book" to sell to naive people for outrageous prices; and put
Guido's name on it to give it legitimacy.

It also bundles up the *tutorial* for $22. There's a number of very
good, large Python books which sell for that. Surely Fred L Drake and
Gudio aren't really involved in this. I wonder if they even know about
it.

At 304 pages I think 22 USD is a reasonable price. Again, you make a lot
of drama where there is none.

And the product description makes /very clear/ what it's about: This is
a printed edition of the official Python documentation from the PYTHON
2.6.1 distribution. For each copy sold $1 will be donated to the PYTHON
SOFTWARE FOUNDATION by the publisher.

Now let's hope that your asshat behaviour doesn't stop companies like
this to continue to print those books. I have considered to buy the
complete set a few times. And I hope you're not calling me naive...

 

[alex23]

Now let's hope that your asshat behaviour doesn't stop companies like
this to continue to print those books. I have considered to buy the
complete set a few times. And I hope you're not calling me naive...

Given the current propensity for people to scrape web sites like
Wikipedia and publish them on Amazon without the rights holders'
consent, my initial impression was exactly the same as Stephen's. I
don't think there's anything contractually binding about the product
description that would guarantee the PSF even see any returns at all.
But hey, as long as the page _looks_ and _sounds_ official, it must
be, right?

Let's hope that _your_ asshat behaviour isn't responsible for people
being conned and ripped off.

 

[Stephen Hansen]

Now let's hope that your asshat behaviour doesn't stop companies like
this to continue to print those books. I have considered to buy the
complete set a few times. And I hope you're not calling me naive...

Excuse me?

I *have* seen people burned by confusion over situations *extremely*
similar to this; there's quite a lot of content which is being scraped
off of the internet and bundled into "books" and posted up on Amazon and
the like. From both technical sources and things like Wikipedia.

Yes. I read every single word available on the page. Yes. I read the
claims that they are donating some proceeds to the PSF. Yes, I read that
it (very poorly) identified what version of Python it was covering.

Yes, it looks sort of above board visually. That doesn't mean it is: and
considering I have *experience* dealing with things that look a lot like
this that *are* scams, I wondered. So I spoke up and asked to see if
anyone knew if it was really legit, after I found no evidence in a
couple Google searches of any legitimate or even quasi-existing entity
behind the products.

If being concerned about fellow Python-folks possibly getting ripped off
makes me an asshat, so be it. Go y'know-what yourself.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[John Bokma]

I *have* seen people burned by confusion over situations *extremely*
similar to this;

But is it? You didn't even ask yourself that question.

If being concerned about fellow Python-folks possibly getting ripped off
makes me an asshat, so be it. Go y'know-what yourself.

If this publisher is legimate you might very well be denying
people -- like I said I am interested -- from getting a print-out in the
future just because /you/ cried wolf and called them scammers.

 

[John Bokma]

Given the current propensity for people to scrape web sites like
Wikipedia and publish them on Amazon without the rights holders'
consent,

Can you explain were exactly it states that you can't print a book out
of wikipedia articles?:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use

my initial impression was exactly the same as Stephen's. I
don't think there's anything contractually binding about the product
description that would guarantee the PSF even see any returns at all.
But hey, as long as the page _looks_ and _sounds_ official, it must
be, right?

And if it looks like a scam, it must be, right?

Let's hope that _your_ asshat behaviour isn't responsible for people
being conned and ripped off.

Yeah, and let's hope that your asshat behaviour doesn't stop this
publisher from printing material that people like me actually want to buy.

 

[Stephen Hansen]

But is it? You didn't even ask yourself that question.

Yes. I did.

I don't really make a point of publishing internal dialog on mailing
lists for you to determine though, so I can see the confusion.

If this publisher is legimate you might very well be denying
people -- like I said I am interested -- from getting a print-out in the
future just because /you/ cried wolf and called them scammers.

Uh, yeah. Okay.

The level of utter absurdity in that statement is off the charts.

I am not off starting some great interweb campaign to bring them down.
I'm not logging into Amazon and down-rating all the books and giving
them scathing reviews. I haven't notified any agencies (from Amazon, to
the PSF) who may be interested in the scam (if it is a scam) to try to
get action done. I haven't even considered registering
sohobooksisascam.com to try to get the word out. Not that having an
anti-website is any good when there's no website to go all anti against,
but whatever.

On a mailing list, a guy with no real influence or and absolutely no
importance, questioned the validity of the publisher and the legitimacy
and ethical behavior they're doing.

If they can't stand up to one question-- they aren't legitimate.

I "deny" nothing to anyone by raising a concern. If the concern is
unfounded, great. If it isn't, then some people will be saved some grief.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[Stephen Hansen]

Can you explain were exactly it states that you can't print a book out
of wikipedia articles?:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use

There's a difference between what is legal, and what is ethical. There
are many, many people who re-use Wikipedia content in ethical ways and
some even make money off of it. That's fine.

Its when you package it up in such a way that the buyer doesn't realize
what they're buying, that's where the problem comes-- and that's what is
happening quite a lot these days.

And if it looks like a scam, it must be, right?

If it looks like a scam, some due-diligence and concern is appropriate.
Especially when asked by someone like the OP who is not you, is not
sophisticated in their knowledge of the community and the resources
available to it.

If it looks like a scam, take care personally. If it looks like a scam
and someone is asking about it, you don't sit by and say nothing. That's
inhuman.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[John Bokma]

On 6/22/10 9:48 PM, John Bokma wrote:
[..]

Its when you package it up in such a way that the buyer doesn't realize
what they're buying, that's where the problem comes-- and that's what is
happening quite a lot these days.

Which is not the case here.

If it looks like a scam, take care personally. If it looks like a scam
and someone is asking about it, you don't sit by and say nothing. That's
inhuman.

Yelling scam because you have a gut feeling is probably human, but I
wouldn't call it ethical.